Karmic Irony | MensRights

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So very similar, just painted from the view of one who feels oppressed from those they perceive as above them. And considering the protesters were throwing out a few Maoist catch-phrases (like "Women hold up half the sky") I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if they were using the Marxist definition. Anything to use a bigger word in protest, I suppose.

Really though, the most important thing is how disappointing the protesting group acted here. Pulling fire alarms and physically blocking doors and shoving people who honestly want to see it, and then going on camera to defend it as a valid way to protect their rights is disgusting. I don't care who it is. That's why I also disliked the Occupy movement, since while it meant well, too many used it as an opportunity to loot and ransack businesses.

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Yet another sign of a cult. Cults tend to think of anyone who they should typically identify as fellows but doesn't fit with their world-view as being brainwashed slaves.

More to the point, it's very conspiracy-theorist. On a website that I am pretty sure (though can't be absolutely certain) is a very convincing parody of conspiracy theorists, The Flat Earth Society, the members consider everyone who isn't part of their group to either be uninformed, working for the conspiracy, or brainwashed.

The forums are a gorgeous, gem-encrusted gold-mine of Poe's Law, and there are many parallels between the arguments there and the arguments coming from Feminism. The difference is that these guys are very convincing and often draw from facts, but are very unpopular, while Feminism is deeply unconvincing and rely primarily on presupposed knowledge that isn't true, yet is extraordinarily popular.

That said, the Flat Earthers tend to draw extremely wrong conclusions from facts, partially by employing the same tactic satirically that Feminism uses seriously: ignoring all professional data because it's part of the conspiracy. Some rules they have: Satellite/LEO/Space pictures are all fake, because conspiracy. Professional astronomer opinions and studies are false because they're either brainwashed or part of the conspiracy. Historical evidence and claims to the contrary of their belief is unreliable at best because the conspiracy is very, very old.

Sound familiar? It should. That's how much of academic Feminism works.

Again, the similarities end there because the members of that site rarely engage in ad-hominem attacks or strawman fallacies, so in that sense, they're actually much more fun to read. Even if it is a bunch of tinfoil-hat wearing crazies, they at least try to exercise restraint, avoid hate for individuals (there seems to be a lot of hate for "the government" because of the conspiracy to hide the fact that the world is flat), and are actually fairly well-reasoned within their own argumentative rules.

It's kinda fun to see people who find loopholes in physics like the idea of a constantly-accelerating disc mimicking the gravity of a massive body exactly, horizon probably looking identical on a flat Earth vs. a round one (still not sure I'd believe that assertion), and a whole cosmology that shifts and changes with new questions brought up.

It's basically a core idea (the Earth is flat) that exists in an ever-changing sea of new data. If new evidence is found that they can't refute with their standard "rules", they find new ways around that evidence. There are some very smart people there who twist science to fit their needs and are quite good at making it nearly-impossible to refute their claims, so long as your rhetoric obeys the basic rules.

Again, this is similar to Feminism's "patriarchy theory". So long as you accept the basic concept of patriarchy, you have a hard time really arguing against a lot of their rhetoric. Sure, there's name-calling and plenty of idiocy within the various Feminist groups, but generally-speaking, they aren't completely contradictory within their rule-set. So long as the patriarchy is assumed, we can allow for a lot of the obvious fallacies, leaps of faith, and incorrect data.

This is why the whole concept of "patriarchy" is such a deep-rooted issue we have to dispel in the eyes of the public, and why I think of the debate between Feminism and Men's Rights, egalitarianism, and other equality-based organizations and banners as one of religion, rather than one of politics.

I think it's also why someone like The Amazing Atheist is against Feminism, even if he isn't a particular fan of Men's Rights. I can see the man's points, though I still think he's a little misinformed about the MRM, or at least doesn't see the use of focusing on a single gender after a half-century of focusing on the other. I can concede that for most people, the MRM sounds an awful lot like just a polar-opposite to Feminism. After all, as he states, why be any kind of activist for either gender? I don't agree with him, but I can see where he's coming from. I think it should be noted that he's not opposition, just not necessarily an ally, even though he does talk about a lot of the same issues that we do.

Anyway, back to the point at hand. The female cop is simply another outsider to the cult of Feminism. The people who hate her are misguided children who have been sucked into a hateful way of thinking. It's college, and thus, safe rebellion. Many of these people can be intelligent, good kids, but they've been sucked in. It's been said that cults attract people, not because they're unintelligent or mentally unstable, but because they're at a shitty point in their lives. College is an especially vulnerable place for many people. Most have just left home for the first time, are working hard to get a degree of some sort due to societal pressure, and ultimately are open to a lot of new ideas, due to the fact that they are there to learn. Those who don't identify with their way of thinking are obviously closed-minded, because in their eyes, they are the open-minded people who have found truth, while the poor female officer has been taught wrong (I know, using Time Cube terminology here, because it fits) and is too far gone to open her mind again.

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Fuck I hate to be the guy to side with the assfuck accusing us of circlejerking and nerdraging (because that's bullshit... sorta) but gprime your responses here aren't making any sense.

If you disagree that men face hardships due to their sex, then there is no hope in changing in your mind and you can leave.

That was a load of garbage, because there is ALWAYS hope of changing people's minds by saying the right things to lead them to information.

That's the very definition of a circlejerk, brah.

Lucas is actually right to say that, because your attempts to argue with him are illustrating that there is a portion of members here who do engage in this behaviour. Albeit I really wish we could come up with a more technical term for it than 'circle jerk'.

Lucas, where you fail the logic though is when you say the 'entire' subreddit is a circlejerk. That's an exaggeration, you know full well. A little circlejerking, sure, but that pollutes any subreddit. Encountering an example is no support for saying that of the whole place.

I think your criticisms would hold more weight if you spoke in more realistic conservative ways about them.

[–]gprime3121 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]gprime3121 point 12 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lucas-hanson0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Albeit I really wish we could come up with a more technical term for it than 'circle jerk'.

"Echo chamber" exists but it's not derogatory enough. The circlejerk mindset is something to be ashamed of, being insulting communicates that pretty well.

That's an exaggeration, you know full well

I realize that bullshit stinks less the more you're around it but, come on. The number 3 post in the subreddit is a guy comparing getting a vasectomy to getting an abortion. Are you fucking kidding me?

I think your criticisms would hold more weight if you spoke in more realistic conservative ways about them.

Not likely. Anything resembling criticism of the community or the movement is met with the following:

Downvotes.
14-year-olds with persecution complexes calling you a "white knight."

Thusly, taking anything on this sub seriously is an exercise in both futility and masochism. But the frothing nerdrage is hiiiiii-larious.

[–]tyciol1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"Echo chamber" exists but it's not derogatory enough.

Ah that rings a bell. How come I forget better terms like that? Still, why does it need to be mega-derogatory? Also couldn't we just be like... 'mega echo chamber' or something? We sexualize so much language, I'm not sure why we need the masturbation allegory...

Not to mention it reeks of hostility towards men itself (jerk being more aligned with male masturbation than female) and hostility towards homosexuality.

I mean really, a literal circle jerk isn't the most horrible thing in the world, can't we do a little better? Should we call female feminist circlejerking 'scissoring' or 'tribadism' ?

I kinda... I like cursing and all but sometimes I just feel like it'd be fun to spiff ourselves up a bit.

The number 3 post in the subreddit is a guy comparing getting a vasectomy to getting an abortion. Are you fucking kidding me?

I don't really spend time comparing what's trending, it's not all that interesting... not sure why the rage about that. Should one be easier than the other? Equal? I dunno, seems like a good issue worth discussing.

anything resembling criticism of the community or the movement is met with Downvotes & 14-year-olds with persecution complexes calling you a "white knight."

Not anything... I wouldn't say constructive criticism gets that. Though it's rare enough. While this does happen a lot (and to some stuff that doesn't deserve it) there are other reactions too.

taking anything on this sub seriously is an exercise in both futility and masochism

Only if it brings you pain bro. I see no futility in entertaining serious perspectives so long as one doesn't cling exclusively to them, we can view things multifacetedly, and be less prnoe to being duped as a result.

But the frothing nerdrage is hiiiiii-larious.

This 'nerd' bit, what do you mean by it exactly? People here have a lot of varied interests. I happen to have a lot of stereotypical 'nerdy' interests like wars/trek/pokemonz/ponies but I don't think that applies to everyone, or even most people here. So what do you mean by it? Nerd seems a lot like 'geek' in regard to having specific and sometimes odd passions and I don't think reasonable critics would pull that assumption out of thin air here.

Could a better term be substituted to describe what you think is a common trait? People with social difficulties? Aspies? I wouldn't say I'd agree but it sounds closer to the mark at what people might assume or allege.

[–]lucas-hanson0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]tyciol1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In order to constitute masturbation, the circle in question would be composed of clones of yourself.

Not really... circle jerking (this makes me think of cracker joke contests) is a group of people engaging in simultaneous close-range masturbation since they're still touching only themselves. If you began to fap the guy next down the line instead, then I suppose it would cease to be autoerotic behaviour...

But the etymology of masturbate is similar to 'manual' in that it really just means 'by hand' though, no? Thus how terms like 'mutual masturbation' make any sense. So in that case it's not about whose limb, but rather what limb.

he's complaining about how "hard" it is to get a vasectomy in comparison to an abortion when abortions in most states are preformed with coat hangers.

Are you living in the 70s bro? Abortions are legal in most states and even when they're done outside the law, especially in our age of Wikipedia, people likely do it by less infectious means like taking drugs known to induce miscarriage.

It refers to the image of a man who feels persecuted due solely to the lack of attention received from girls in high school.

Okay, but since some nerds do get female attention, and some of those who don't aren't bitter about it, and there are non-nerds who also lack female attention and are bitter about it, I don't understand why this term is the proper label for people whom we assume to be bitter about a lack of romance.

I find that referencing it gives the most spirited, and perhaps the most telling, reactions.

It can get spirited and telling reactions, both by nerds and those who like nerds, but it may tell things other than what you interpret it as telling.

Are you certain that a lack of female attention is the only reason someone might feel persecuted? Sometimes people encounter both female attentions AND persecution.

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Title	Karmic Irony
Author	robert32907
Upvotes	718
Comments	198
Date	July 29, 2013 11:43 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1jb98u/karmic_irony/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/karmic-irony.1167623 https://theredarchive.com/post/1167623

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