Take a seat. | MensRights

barbadosslim · 2011-08-20T20:03:46+00:00

After today's "I might have raped someone, what do???" post, I think it's time to have a talk. It seems that a lot of you...

[–]vintermann 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Norms value from culture to culture. In your culture, it seems if two drunk people have sex, the man is considered a rapist.

In my culture, people have to be drunk to unconsciousness, or at least beyond being capable of expressing consent, before drunkenness is sufficient reason to call it rape. And that is a good thing, because people here - girls especially - often get drunk precisely to have sex. Blaming the bottle is good for some people's self-esteem.

Now I'm no cultural relativist. I think you're accountable for the things you do, no matter what your culture and society says. I think it's messed up that people get drunk in order to have sex.

However, I also think it's messed up that you're willing to throw someone in jail, brand them for life, and consider them equivalent to violent rapists, because they had sex when drunk.

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Cool, then she's a rapist too. Good to know everyone who's ever had mutual drunk sex is a rapist. This must be the "Rape Culture" I hear so much about, people drunkenly fucking each other.

Not necessarily. Without a victim, there was no crime. Intending to have sex with someone who cannot consent does give you the guilty mind, and having sex with people who cannot consent is extremely dangerous.

Analogy time.

This:

You steal $20 out of your friend's wallet while he's wasted. He wakes up, figures out you did it, and doesn't care. No crime. Does this mean that stealing $20 out of people's wallets while they are drunk is not bad? Does it mean that you did not intend to commit a crime?

is kind of like:

You have sex with a woman while she's wasted. She gets up the next morning and doesn't care. No crime. Does this mean that having sex with drunk people is ok? Does it mean that you didn't intend to have sex with someone who could not consent?

I hope this is an apt enough analogy. Stealing is taking someone else's property without their consent. Rape is having sex with someone without their consent. I think the analogy works.

No! You are confusing consent with intent. You can intend to commit any crime while drunk. You can commit murder, theft, drunk driving, or rape. You are in this way responsible for your actions, even while drunk.

Cool, she's still a rapist along with him then as per your own definition.

Nope.

You cannot consent to anything while drunk. Not transferring power of attorney, authorizing a DNR, not updating your will, not sex.

Let's throw them both behind bars. This is going to be freakin' sweet.

Without a victim, there is no crime, and no one should go to jail.

The thesis of this series posts is strictly: "Please do not have sex with people who do not consent to sex."

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Cool, then she's a rapist too. Good to know everyone who's ever had mutual drunk sex is a rapist. This must be the "Rape Culture" I hear so much about, people drunkenly fucking each other.

Not necessarily. Without a victim, there was no crime. Intending to have sex with someone who cannot consent does give you the guilty mind, and having sex with people who cannot consent is extremely dangerous.

Analogy time.

This:

You steal $20 out of your friend's wallet while he's wasted. He wakes up, figures out you did it, and doesn't care. No crime. Does this mean that stealing $20 out of people's wallets while they are drunk is not bad? Does it mean that you did not intend to commit a crime?

is kind of like:

You have sex with a woman while she's wasted. She gets up the next morning and doesn't care. No crime. Does this mean that having sex with drunk people is ok? Does it mean that you didn't intend to have sex with someone who could not consent?

I hope this is an apt enough analogy. Stealing is taking someone else's property without their consent. Rape is having sex with someone without their consent. I think the analogy works, even if it does reinforce the notion of sex as a commodity, which I do not support.

No! You are confusing consent with intent. You can intend to commit any crime while drunk. You can commit murder, theft, drunk driving, or rape. You are in this way responsible for your actions, even while drunk.

Cool, she's still a rapist along with him then as per your own definition.

Nope.

You cannot consent to anything while drunk. Not transferring power of attorney, authorizing a DNR, not updating your will, not sex.

Let's throw them both behind bars. This is going to be freakin' sweet.

Without a victim, there is no crime, and no one should go to jail.

The thesis of this series posts is strictly: "Please do not have sex with people who do not consent to sex." I really don't want to get into who should be punished to what degree.

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I would agree with the idea that victimless crimes shouldn't be prosecuted or treated as such.

Unfortunately, that's not how things work in America. We throw people in jail for smoking marijuana in their own homes. Who was the victim, exactly? The smoker?

We prosecute underage kids who take photos of themselves naked and send them to the person they are dating, even in cases where there was no coercion from the partner. Who is the victim?

We prosecute underage kids for rape even when the other child is swearing up and down that the sex was entirely consensual. Who was the victim?

We prosecute prostitutes and those who visit prostitutes even when both are sound of both mind and body, and who aren't "forced into the situation by monetary reasons". Who is the victim?

At one time, we had sodomy laws. Thankfully, they've since been overturned, but who was the victim?

Your "analogy" with the wallet is a sham as well. Legal forces do not have to become involved for it to be a crime, nor is the consent of the victim legally recognized in this country as a mitigating factor. It doesn't matter if you wanted me to help you commit suicide, I'm still going to jail. It doesn't matter if you wanted me to randomly chop off your legs, I'm still going to jail if the police find out I did it. Etc.

The only requirement for a crime to be committed is that it go against the law of your country. In the case of mutual drunken sex, where both "consented" at the time (regardless of whether that consent can be held up to when sober), it doesn't matter if they "feel" it was rape. Either they've both guilty or they're both innocent.

[–]girlwriteswhat 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

So they were both drunk. They both raped each other. And were both accessories to the other's perpetration of rape, because by consenting while drunk, they were participating--with intent, as you put it--in an illegal act, and their intoxication is no legal defence.

There is no reasonable, logical way that these legal principles--intoxication vitiating consent without also vitiating intent--can coexist if both genders are treated equally.

Even in a case where one person intentionally gets someone drunk to loosen their inhibitions and get sex they otherwise wouldn't, so long as the other party consented to the sex, they would be criminally culpable as an accessory to a criminal act. The act of consenting to sex while intoxicated is intentional participation, wherein if they had not consented, the particular illegal act (consensual sex while intoxicated) would not have taken place. They would either not have had the illegal sex at all, or the crime would be a different one--forcible rape.

If she was drunk, and she offered her to unlock her parents' front door so he could steal their TV, she'd be guilty of aiding and abetting.

There is no way to make these legal principles coexist, if the law were uniformly, logically and properly applied.

[–]barbadosslim[S] -3 points-2 points-1 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

So they were both drunk. They both raped each other. And were both accessories to the other's perpetration of rape, because by consenting while drunk, they were participating--with intent, as you put it--in an illegal act, and their intoxication is no legal defence.

No, because you cannot consent while drunk. The victim of the rape is not an accessory to his or her own rape.

Even in a case where one person intentionally gets someone drunk to loosen their inhibitions and get sex they otherwise wouldn't

Yeah, please don't have sex with that person.

If she was drunk, and she offered her to unlock her parents' front door so he could steal their TV, she'd be guilty of aiding and abetting.

Yeah, you can commit a crime while drunk. I think we can all agree to that. You just can't consent to sex.

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Alternatively, a man gives a woman alcohol at a party until she says 'lets leave the party', they have sex.

If the woman says she was raped, can the man say 'well I was drunk too!'

No. We have a victim, the woman. We have a guilty mind in the man - he intentionally had sex with someone who could not consent to sex. Therefore, the man raped the woman.

If you ply someone with alcohol at a party, you become responsible for how much they drink.

I disagree with this, but I'll let it stand so that it doesn't become a derail.

If you subsequently have sex with them, you open yourself up to a charge of rape.

Yes.

Because plying them with alcohol is an expression of intent.

The key issue is whether or not the person you're trying to have sex with consents. If they're drunk, then they do not consent. It doesn't matter who is responsible for getting them drunk.

Perhaps if you get someone else drunk and rape them, then you are worse than someone who rapes someone who was already drunk. I don't know. I reeeeeally don't want this to turn into a discussion of ranking different rape situations in terms of how bad they were.

[–]rantgrrl 5 points6 points7 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

We have a guilty mind in the man - he intentionally had sex with someone who could not consent to sex. Therefore, the man raped the woman.

What?

How did you just go from this to 'Guilty mind?'

The only way is because you implicitly believe a woman every time she says she was raped.

Perhaps if you get someone else drunk and rape them, then you are worse than someone who rapes someone who was already drunk.

It's not a matter of worse. It's a matter of demonstrating intent.

If you ply someone with alcohol and then subsequently have sex with them, you are responsible for their level of drunkenness thus their ability to consent/not consent. If they were just drunk to begin with, you aren't.

Plus you open up the argument that it was your intent to get them drunk.

You know I think you guys are all just responding to every argument you can't answer with 'BUT THAT MAKES YOU... RAPE!'

[–]barbadosslim[S] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

We have a guilty mind in the man - he intentionally had sex with someone who could not consent to sex. Therefore, the man raped the woman.

What?

How did you just go from this to 'Guilty mind?'

Guilty mind is the term I'm using to describe a situation in which someone intends to commit a crime. If you intend to have sex with someone who cannot consent to sex, then you are intending to rape this person, and you have a guilty mind.

The only way is because you implicitly believe a woman every time she says she was raped.

The honesty of women is a derail, outside the scope of this argument. The point we are arguing is, "Please do not have sex with people who do not consent to sex." The provability of accusations is irrelevant to this argument.

It's not a matter of worse. It's a matter of demonstrating intent.

If you ply someone with alcohol and then subsequently have sex with them, you are responsible for their level of drunkenness thus their ability to consent/not consent. If they were just drunk to begin with, you aren't.

Plus you open up the argument that it was your intent to get them drunk.

I don't like this argument, because to me it implies that if give someone alcohol, then they cannot rape you. Does it not imply that?

This seems wrong, and I think that this implies that the identity of the supplier of the alcohol is irrelevant. Maybe I'm wrong.

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This is false reasoning. You're, of course, talking about legal definitions, not real definitions, when you address rape and consent. I'd like to address that, but much of the text and defining done in the legal world is arbitrary, constantly open to modification, and therefore reduces itself to a tier of insignificance when really worrying about the real-world issue and implications, not the arbitrary courtroom take on it. This is partially why /r/MensRights exists, because we know there is a gaping black hole of reason and sense in the legal system, and people get fucked for non-issues. Let's talk about the real meat of the issue, speaking from a logical and reasonable perspective, breaking down the gaping hole of inconsistency in the legal world.

When I'm drunk, I'm capable of giving consent and of refusing something. I've been drunk a lot, and I've consented to a lot of things and I've refused a lot of things. Even if I'm pretty drunk, I'm capable of knowing when something is a good idea or a bad idea. Sex is no different. Accountability still lies with the person drinking. If I get drunk, so drunk that I black out, and then I end up driving, am I not accountable for my actions? Or am I a victim of alcohol and influence? No, I am held accountable for my actions because I made the choice to drink, and being drunk is inexcusable as a defense. I then made the choice to drive. I consented to getting into my car and driving. Why is it, then, that in only one situation we place the drunk person in the role of the victim? What makes their decision to get drunk and behave a certain way any different? When it comes to sex, is there a physical switch or function inside the body of a person that makes them unable to reason, unable to be responsible for their actions, where otherwise they would be? What's the magic line that makes them no longer responsible for what they do, but only if it involves sex? If it involves robbing a liquor store at the suggestion of a few sober friends - still guilty. If it involves assaulting another person after a sober person suggests it - still guilty. If it involves breaking and entering, or destruction of property, even if at the suggestion of a sober person - still guilty. If it involves sexual intercourse, with a sober person - NOT YOUR FUCKING FAULT, MAN! YOU'RE A VICTIM! HOLY SHIT! CALL A LAWYER AND BRING THE TORCHES OF HATE TO YOUR SIDE! THERE'S A WAR TO WAGE!

When an intoxicated person signs a legally binding contract, they are often still held to that contract. They don't get an exemption for being drunk. What is it about sexual consent that somehow, magically, makes them exempt from the ramifications? Nothing, physically or in reality. When we speak legally, though, we enter a world where reason has little weight, and logic is a joke. We're in the world of making money at the expense of others, and where an entire industry is built on victimization and the blame-game. The mechanics of nature and human behavior become a play where the lawyers and judges act as directors and writers and invent their own rules and interpretations of behavior. What you've recited here is an accurate take on their script, but not an accurate take on reality.

[–]barbadosslim[S] -4 points-3 points-2 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

When I'm drunk, I'm capable of giving consent and of refusing something.

It seems like your main point is that consent can meaningfully be given while drunk. This is mostly outside the scope of what I can argue about.

If I get drunk, so drunk that I black out, and then I end up driving, am I not accountable for my actions? Or am I a victim of alcohol and influence? No, I am held accountable for my actions because I made the choice to drink, and being drunk is inexcusable as a defense. I then made the choice to drive. I consented to getting into my car and driving.

You intentionally got in the car and drove. This is a crime. You can intend to commit any crime while drunk. Consent is irrelevant here.

Why is it, then, that in only one situation we place the drunk person in the role of the victim?

It is not only this situation, it's just the situation that is controversial on r/mensrights. A drunk person cannot consent to anything. Not a contract, a DNR, a will, or sex.

If it involves robbing a liquor store at the suggestion of a few sober friends - still guilty. If it involves assaulting another person after a sober person suggests it - still guilty.

Yes. You can commit any crime while drunk.

When an intoxicated person signs a legally binding contract, they are often still held to that contract.

If you can prove that they were drunk when they signed it, my understanding is that the contract is invalid.

[–]BukkRogerrs 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

You intentionally got in the car and drove. This is a crime. You can intend to commit any crime while drunk. Consent is irrelevant here.

If you can intentionally and knowingly get into a car, drive, and commit a crime, how then can you not intentionally and knowingly engage in sexual intercourse? What you seem to be saying is that drunk driving is your choice, but drunk sex is not your choice. How do you justify this? Can you not intend to engage in sex while drunk? The idea of consent is relevant here, because although consent itself is not necessary to drink and drive, if we take it to be true that one can legally be held responsible for the choice to drive a car after drinking (that is, the choice is their own), one can legally give their consent to have sex after drinking (the choice is their own). Both require the ability to make a decision and to act on that decision.

A drunk person cannot consent to anything. Not a contract, a DNR, a will, or sex.

I can't agree with you on this. Legally, that's (kind of) considered true (contracts are still valid when one party is drunk). But we're clearly not discussing that, because the point I made was to explore the fallacy of the legal definition and how it is contrary to reality. Consent simply means to approve of an act; drunk people are absolutely capable approving or disapproving of an act. To say they're not capable of consent seems to be saying they're not capable of making decisions (logical to assume if they're incapable of consent, a simple decision, they're incapable of making other decisions... otherwise you have to draw an arbitrary line). If they're not capable of making decisions, they can't be held accountable for their actions. But drunk people are held accountable for their actions. This means they can make decisions and be responsible for them. Following this, they can make the decision of consent, for it is no different than other decisions. It requires weighing options, and picking one of those options. There's no qualifier in the definition of consent that requires one be entirely sober. There's nothing inherent to the word that makes it only applicable to people under the influence of no substances.

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Your terrible example had the woman saying yea. You imply the opposite. Lie 2

You imply believing someone on the Internet means we defend rape. Lie 2

You imply I do or would do. Lie 3.

You imply we defended a rapist, we merely believed a lier (you), this is unrelated to how we react when not directly solicited. Lie 4

You imply there is no consent with alcohol. Lie 5.

You imply a non recordable event is proof. Lie 6.

You imply a mutual situation has only one victim and only one victimiser. Lie 7.

Your post doesn't boil down to 'don't rape'. Lie 8.

We always speak out against rape, you ignore that, a lie of omission. Lie 9.

You imply rape occurs without threat or violence. Lie 10.

You cherry pick points ignoring the rest of the information. Lie 11.

You deny you do any of these. Lie 12.

You imply our words in discussion equal action or support when they merely equal speculation and discussion. Doubly so when there is lying involved on your part. Lie 13. ( watching liking or agreeing with die hard is not shooting anyone or agreeing with shooting anyone or supporting poor police procedure.)

You used entrapment to get a response to attribute to us, that did not occur without that entrapment. Lie 14.

[–]barbadosslim[S] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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I can't argue grass is green. Everything I said is self evident. Denying that is lie 15.

If you want to argue grass isn't green, you'll need citation.

WHAT THE FUCK!! YOU SHOCKING RAPIST!!

In fact outrage were there is no cause is lie16.

To present as engaging in debate when in fact engaging in troll attack, lie 17

To pretend to have an argument when in fact just using shaming by faked social norms, lie18.

To pretend you only have to cherry pick an error or two, when in fact you should be addressing the actual information, lie 19.

To imply with your outrage that my position is relevant, or even stated, when mens rights is about the issues, not the proponents, and when the question of the validity of your argument is about your approach not mine, is lie 20.

To attack the proponents of mens rights, and present that as salient, when the issue is the issues is lie 21.

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'Enthusiastic consent?' What are you a rape apologist? Or rather, are you so damaged by the endless rape you endure as a man that you are defending your own abuse?

'Enthusiastic consent' does not work for men. Obviously if a man is socially coerced to consider consent a part of his gender identity we can't even trust his 'enthusiastic consent' to being raped by a woman. Men are programmed to offer 'enthusiastic consent' to women by society. In fact they are programmed to initiate by society. Otherwise they have their gender identity taken away--and a man who has his manhood (specifically his heterosexual manhood) taken away is subject to beatings, rapes and murders.

So every time a woman has sex with a man, the situation is more like oh... "being in prison with a 250-lb muscular man, in for murdering a man with a 2"x4". You know that in the past he has beaten other inmates. The first night in, your cellmate turns to you and says, "Lie on the bed, take your pants off, and don't make a fucking sound.""

Every time a woman has sex with a man she is implicitly threatening him with rape, torture and murder. Because he knows if he doesn't consent--and consent with sufficient enthusiasm to avoid a charge of homosexuality from her--he can have his gender identity taken away. And that's what happens to men who get their gender identity taken away. They get raped, tortured and murdered.

In that context no man in our society can consent to sex with women.

I feel for you barack, I really do. You're obviously the helpless victim of society's millennia long attack on male consent. Your words are coming from a place of deep and profound pain due to the never ending rape you've endured from women that I, as a woman thus capable of giving the consent to sex that you as a man can't, can never feel.

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we are breaking down the barriers of your so fucking called Patriarchal society

you're going to have a hard time doing that by trivializing the importance of getting positive consent just sayin

and that means women have to stop living in one too

dude this is not a choice women are given the opportunity to make, if they were, i'm pretty sure they'd be taking it. gendered social conditioning is extremely pervasive, its not something you can "choose" to ignore

if you get shit-faced and consent then you are just as responsible as a drunk driver

you're conflating consent with intent. a drunk driver is responsible because they intended to drive a car while intoxicated. you can intend to do something without necessarily consenting to it, say there's a gun to your head, you may intend to give the mugger your wallet, but you wouldn't call that consent.

the idea of women having a fear of saying 'No' is ridiculous to the point that all men should be afraid of saying 'Yes' incase the woman decides after the fact she has been raped.

men actually should be afraid of believing that just them saying yes is enough to go forward haha. and i resent the notion of date rapes being because a woman decided "after the fact" she was raped, they're normally pretty aware during that it isn't something they want

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So I hear that modern surgery can simulate a vagina fairly accurately, as it's just a meaty gash when you ignore the life-sustaining bits.

But unfortunately for you the shit they jury-rig out of a dead guy's toe or whatever to simulate a penis? Not as convincing. In short, no I don't want to see your FtM fake weiner.

That's not transphobia by the way. Everything I've said there is completely accurate. If I'm wrong about you not really being born with a penis and instead begging one off the NHS or whoever, then I shudder to think about your upbringing. I mean, what the fuck?

Did you ever know your father? Do you even have a father? In the non-technical sense. Or were you just raised by a mother and a series of her lesbian lovers? Not to mention your sisters. Shit, you must have been worse off than Adam Sandler's character in Punch Drunk Love. I cannot imagine what kind of environment would produce a male that thought like you. It must have been eighty different kinds of fucked up. Well, good luck stopping the patriarchy.

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it would be awesome if women were instead taught to take control of their sexuality, and they weren't told to only indirectly express their opinions and preferences, and if they didn't have to fear violent reprisal for saying "no", but that's just not how shit is. for as long as women are conditioned to be passive by a patriarchal society, men who want to have hetero sex, in order to be responsible, are going to have to do more of the heavy lifting w/r/t consent if they don't want to unintentionally coerce someone into sex.

I've been trying to figure something in my head, and maybe you can help me out, yeah? When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading "The Female Eunuch", masturbating in your own feces, do you just stop and go, "Wow! It is amazing how fucking crazy I really am!"? Yeah. Do you guys do that?

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Hold on a second, I started that thread that you are referencing and I haven't called anyone a troll here. Though, the "take a seat" title, then a small lecture, is rather condescending. But look at what the OP says, and here are some serious questions because their statement is ambigous at best:

"If the person you want to have sex with is sober and enthusiastically agrees to sex, then go for it. Otherwise, don't. If you can't get behind this, then you probably should not have sex at all. There is a real chance you might rape someone."

Is the OP saying that consensual sex can not occur if their is intoxication on the part of the man or the woman?

Is the OP saying that if sex does occur during intoxication then it's rape? Does that mean the OP saying that if the man is drunk and the woman is not, than the woman is raping the man?

Is the OP saying without verbal consent, a literal "yes" or "no", that rape is occuring?

What I don't understand is the ambiguity of these statements, since these are serious legal issues. "A real chance" is not an accecptable position in my opinion. If the feminist movement is attempting to alter the laws, I think they need to be clear on what it is exactly they want. And what they want should apply to men and women equally, but I don't see that here at all. What I see is an attempt to bias the laws against men and to the favor of women.

Also, I don't buy that woman should be removed from the responsibility of saying no. Moreover, if this responsibility is removed from the women, then the law should not be written in a way that would apply to a woman and not a man. Both parties need to take equal responsibilties for their actions. If you take away that repsonsibility, then you mine as well have a notarized consent form signed in triplicate, since legalities are concerned a verbal yes or no is one person's word against anothers.

I'll repost this under the OP's comments to get clarification of the feminist(?) standpoint.

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No, it is not my responsibility to ask, you just want to infantalize and treat women as if they were children, i afford them agency, and control over their actions.

Look, why don't we just realize the truth: women apparently want to be seen as children. Women want the responsibilities of children. We as a society should treat women as children.

Because if women want this not to be true, they need to come clamoring and demanding that they have agency. They need to demand that women who don't say no can't press rape charges. They need to demand self-responsibility.

And since we are not seeing that, we need to treat women as they desire to be treated, as children. Otherwise we won't be respecting their wishes.

For those few women who do wish to be treated as full adults, perhaps we can set up a consent form for you... say Selective Service forms?

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On "enthusiastically" : OP should not write this when she obviously has no idea what it is like to be a man in a heterosexual encounter.

Most women will never initiate sex, especially the first time. And most women still like to act coy and demure in the bedroom, either because they think it's feminine or because they're shy. Only about 10% of the women I've ever had sex with have said anything like "Oh yeah, do me baby!"

Now this may be because I've lived in the Midwest most of my life, and women here like to be more coy and demure. But I've only had one girlfriend who was sexually aggressive enough to "enthusiastically consent" and only a couple of one night stands with sexually aggressive women.

Yet I have made absolutely sure that what we were doing was both consensual and thoroughly enjoyable. Their enjoyment of the act was highly enthusiastic. Their consent, while clear, was coy and demure.

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Are you shitting me? you're saying if a guy and a girl have drunk sex then it's essentially rape since you can't consent to the sex. That means I've raped my girlfriend on multiple occasions because we've been drunk and had sex(with out either of us giving verbal consent)

If having drunk sex makes me a rapist try to lock my right the fuck up because drunk sex=best sex.

not once have I asked a girl to have sex with me whilst drunk, flirting led to kissing led to foreplay led to sex. She never said I don't want to do this(I would have stopped and I've stopped my self when I've been told) but she never said "Yes let has have sexual intercourse, I full consent to your penis" because it wasn't necessary. TL;DR Had sex with girl while were both drunk, didn't SAY she consented because she's a big girl and would have said no if she didn't want to. On my dick, nothing bad happened the next day.

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Title	Take a seat.
Author	barbadosslim
Upvotes	0
Comments	330
Date	August 20, 2011 8:03 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/jp2oo/take_a_seat/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/take-a-seat.1035675 https://theredarchive.com/post/1035675

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