Things you'll never see feminists demand...

I just wonder if maybe we can have feminist movements and men's rights movements that aren't necessarily in opposition, but each focus a bit more on gender-specific issues with the goal of together coming to complete equality. Groups/movements will always have to focus on specific issues, so I can see feminism maybe taking up abortion rights for example over women getting more equal/harsher punishment in crimes. I think both are completely important, but it also makes sense for the feminist movement to take up something which threatens women's rights specifically, just as the men's rights movement may support something that more directly affects men's rights, like male circumcision. I think it's good for there to be overlap in support, but I think there may be some benefit to have separate movements.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points11 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]shady8x 7 points8 points9 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not really sure what "we want to work as hard as men" means in a practical sense

This has to do with feminists constantly fighting against the wage gap, which is a myth.

Feminists claim that women get payed 80% of what men get payed and that women should get paid more. But that number is an unadjusted raw number taken from the total amount of what all men and all women are paid. What could we adjust for? Women work [(44/56)x100]=78% as much time as men. Kind of explains the gap by itself doesn't it? Men work more hours.

The other part of the graph is what feminists never mention. Men die on the job [(93/7)x100]=1329% as much as women do. So the hazard pay must also be pretty good.

IF feminists want women to be paid as much as men, then they should demand that women work as much time as men and that women go into the more dangerous job fields that are dominated by men. They never do that though, they do try to legally mandate that some percent of top executives are female...

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Absolutely; the feminist side of the argument simply disregards the male side of things. What's more, the movement as a whole looks at the 40% of men who are domestic violence victims, put their fingers in their ears and go "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU". Just as female on male domestic violence is considered acceptable courtesy of modern sitcoms and even cartoons as a child. We're taught that we have to take it.

For the record, I just like playing devils' advocate because it's too easy (imo) to get caught up in a giant mob going "me too!"

I feel like the feminist argument would be that "men can defend themselves and women can't". Which is not only contradictory to feminist doctrine but it also is an explicit double standard, as well as it ignores the sheer number of laws that tip the scales entirely the other way.

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There is sensible reasoning for alimony, the problem is it's not specific enough and many women abuse it. The reasoning is in many scenarios women give up a job when they are married to take care of the house work and because they don't need too. If they then get divorced several years later then it's much harder for them to get a job in a related field and even if they do they won't get the same pay the day they quit (let alone any promotions/raises they would have gotten if they continued working). Alimony is there to support them until they can get caught up in their field and get a job.

There are of course issues with alimony. For example the very first thing I would do is take note of the belongings of each person when they first enter marriage. Upon divorce these belongings remain with the person who brought them into the marriage.

Secondly, alot of women abuse alimony and just don't even attempt to get jobs, thus never having to work again while leaching off the man. I think this should work similar to some welfare systems I have seen where the women must spend x amount of time (and provide proof of that time) applying for jobs. If she does not, then she loses alimony payments.

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I'm going to totally ignore the blatant sexism inherent in your response by only considering nice safe, clean, "office work" suitable for your theoretical female spouse, instead of digging ditches or digging coal out of the ground, and simply point out that you're full of shit.

I started out my work in exactly that situation. I walked into an office (As a "Kelly Girl") and got a job working in Word/Excel in a business environment. I did not own or even otherwise ever use Word/Excel before the very date I started the job.

Yes way, Jose.

On that day, I taught the people I was working with - invariably lifelong office work - how to use variable fields to create a form response from a list of addresses. They were, quite literally, hand editing a base file, printing it out, hand editing it again, printing it out, etc etc, for thousands of names.

[–]CandethMartine 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Bartab 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

lol if you actually believe this. all of those unemployed people in the usa, just failures!

You're trying to conflate two different things. I reject your attempt.

We're talking about individual people who as yourself stated, refuse or refuse to seek out entry level jobs.

15% is indicative of a systemic economic problem, not an issue with "being off work for 5, 10, 15 years"

That person (male or female) who can't get a job because they spent 10 years in a field that no longer exists.

When my job disappears after 10 years, I find a new one. When yours does, you demand alimony.

All those educated lawyers who can't get jobs. Failings. Personal failings. LOL. you're a gem.

There's no recent decrease in the number of lawyers. What has occurred is an increase in the number of law school graduates, thus flooding the field, lowering wages, and filling spots.

But rejoice! The law is a historically entrepreneurial field. Go make your own job! (Note, Real Life(tm) Work will probably not pay the million dollar salaries you think you deserve)

[–]CandethMartine 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

There's no recent decrease in the number of lawyers.

Wrong.

http://i.imgur.com/Sahve.gif http://imgur.com/MyH6E.jpg

We're talking about individual people who as yourself stated, refuse or refuse to seek out entry level jobs.

I never said that? At all. I think a lot of office jobs these days are entry level, first of all. And second, the way things are right now, unless you want the state paying for the child, a single parent of either gender is going to need more than an entry level job. Unless of course child support is involved.

When my job disappears after 10 years, I find a new one. When yours does, you demand alimony.

Yeah man, it's that simple. When your skills are 10 years old, and you need to explain to your employers that gap. When 15% of the country can't find work - people with masters and PhDs, where being unemployed is one of the most detrimental things to you finding another job.

You clearly have no experience with these things in the real world, or if you have, have encountered incredible luck or had way more help than you care to acknowledge getting there.

You're living in a fantasy land inside of your head. This utopia where jobs grow on trees and children can be raised on $7.15-10 an hour is sick. It's seriously scary.

Yeah just take 10 years off and then go get a job man, anyone can do it, if you can't you're lazy. No matter that you need to find a babysitter for you children that costs $10/hr when you only make $12/hr before taxes at your high paying assistant manager's job at taco bell.

What an entitled bitch hoping to not make burgers at the age of 35 after getting divorced.

I don't care who asks for custody, even if it were 50% of the time even if it were a man your expectations are off the charts. You are so delusional your delusions no longer have any application to men's rights. If a man were in the same situation he'd be just as screwed. A single father who is returning to the workforce with 10+ year old skills, a 10 year gap in work history, and can barely land an entry level job with little/no benefits is just as fucked.

[–]Bartab1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

http://i.imgur.com/Sahve.gif http://imgur.com/MyH6E.jpg

http://a.couple.graphics.isn't.data.com.com.com

At all. I think a lot of office jobs these days are entry level, first of all.

Well then no problem, your theoretical 5,10, 15 year off the job can go get one of them. Or dig ditches. Or work on a crab boat.

Did you know the commercial fishing industry is the most dangerous job in the country, bar none? Interesting things you learn from news radio when somebody in your town dies to a job.

Oh yeah, it's all men. And paid really well too, which is why these men do it.

Yeah just take 10 years off

Who said I haven't?

What an entitled bitch hoping to not make burgers at the age of 35 after getting divorced.

BTW, I'm over 35 and would make burgers if I needed too. So yes, anybody.. ANYBODY who refuses to do so is an entitled bitch.

[–]CandethMartine1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well then no problem, your theoretical 5,10, 15 year off the job can go get one of them. Or dig ditches. Or work on a crab boat.

Did you know the commercial fishing industry is the most dangerous job in the country, bar none? Interesting things you learn from news radio when somebody in your town dies to a job.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? A single parent with sole custody of a child, regardless of gender, cannot go work on a crabbing boat! You're just citing totally different statistics that have nothing to do with it!

You can't raise a child on raising burgers either unless you are advocating for massive state or non-custodial parental financial support!

This isn't a 21 year old college grad refusing to take an entry level job, or refusing to get a job at Starbucks to pay rent while they live at home. You're off the chain. It's not "I'm 35, i'm too good for this." it's "I am no longer 21 with no responsibilities. I have to maintain a car, pay rent, buy food for me and a child, etc."

35 is also much harder to advance your education, doubly so with a child!

[–]Bartab1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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If, for whatever reason, one parent doesn't have 50% custody than that parent best be dead or in jail. Because otherwise the system is stealing from the parent without half custody.

??? What happened to your paper abortions? What about cases where one parent is unfit? If the courts were gender blind it would not be a problem to award custody to either parent in this case. If one parent is sickly, has major medical expenses, gets a job in another country, dies, is a drug addict, is sexually or violently abusive, etc.

What if one parent doesn't want custody? How it is now, except with the default being 50/50. Should a parent who wants nothing to do with the child be forced to have 50% custody? Again - I'm with you! I think custody should be split by default instead of just awarding it to the mother. I'm a guy, if I had kids I'd want to be there for them as much as possible. But the courts don't work in this fantasy land where 100% of parents are good and loving.

You continue to betray every other argument for Men's Rights just to go down this rabbit hole.

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Who says they deserve to have a well paying job? A job is a job.

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[–]Alanna3 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The point of people saying child care is not equivalent to a full-time, high-paying job can be summed up the same as the argument of those saying housework is not equivalent to having a full-time high-pay job:

Look at what cleaning people/maid services make. Not per hour, but in terms of net take home pay per year.

Look at what child care people make. Look at how much teachers make.

Not what you think they maybe should make, but what they do make.

My husband brought this point home to me forcefully when we were discussing the possibility of me staying home with our kid (soon to be kids). The fact that we could not afford it (and maintain our lifestyle, which isn't fancy but is comfortable), even factoring in day care and possibly additional help with cleaning and so forth because working full time I just can't keep up, should tell you something.

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Alanna4 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I might be off base, but the original point, I believe, was that raising children and/or doing housework is a full-time job entitling the woman to half of the man's paycheck, correct? That room and board and probably a stipend (going shopping for personal things) don't cover what she is "owed" by foregoing a career to be a housewife/mother?

I make, gross, $38K a year. We pay, very roughly, $10K per year for day care. It was impossible for me to justify to my husband staying home with our kid (soon to be kids, and then that number will go up, and we'll have to recalculate) at a loss of almost $30K per year. Even if we had a cleaning lady come in once a week to help me out, I bet that number would only go up to around $15K at most; still a loss of $25K.

In other words, by fair market standards, I should be "owed" roughly $15K in alimony in terms of the work I would do, if I stayed home full time. This is far less than half of my husband's wages. This is not how alimony is calculated or paid. As people have pointed out, there are ex-wives of sports stars and other celebs who are receiving millions.

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Alanna3 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Alanna1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's $200 a week/$40 a day. That comes to $10,400 per year ($200 x 52), but she misses some days because she's sick, the day care is closed some days for holidays, we go on vacations sometimes, and so forth, so I cut it a little lower.

We hunted for bargains because we couldn't afford a lot for day care. The woman who takes care of my daughter, as I said, runs her day care out of her home, but she's licensed by the state to do so and I've had few complaints. She's a lot more flexible than I imagine a more institutional day care would be.

The single biggest decider in how much day care costs, as far as I could see, is age of the child. After they're potty trained, it gets a lot cheaper. Infants are EXPENSIVE. We saw rates at other places for $1200-2000 a month. So it can cost a lot more. But ~$10K is what we pay, and that's in Los Angeles, which is on the higher side of cost of living.

There are probably many instances where both parents agree that one of them will stay home for the best interests of the child.

Sure. But that's still a choice, and one that the stay-home parent makes knowing it will make getting a job more difficult later on. It's a choice I would make myself, but I also acknowledge the risk I'm taking and I'm confident in my job skills (I've always been decent with computers, I'm not going to forget how to run a cash register or deal with customers, etc.).

What is "fair" really depends on the factors that went into making the choice.

Sure, but things get ugly quick in most divorces. What was a mutual decision when made that both parties were willing and agreeable can quickly turn into "S/he forced me to give up everything!!" Feminist patriarchy theories don't help, if they get ahold of the wife, because now every decision she made, no matter how much her decision or something willingly undertaken at the time becomes something pressured or coerced on her by the patriarchy.

My main point is that whatever a "fair" alimony is (if there even is such a thing), most women are getting paid much more than that. Also remember that child support is entirely separate from alimony and women often receive both.

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Alanna1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]JihadDerp 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]crack-en 14 years ago [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

ugh, it's posts like these that give us a bad name. I've said it before but I'll say it again:

MENS RIGHTS IS NOT AN ANTI-FEMINISM GROUP

This post has absolutely nothing to do with men's rights at all, it's making broad generalizations about an entire group, something we're supposed to be AGAINST!

Judging an entire group by the actions of the loudest members is one of the reasons we get labeled a hate group. extremists get noticed, rational and sensible people do not.

[–]woofoo 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]crack-en 14 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

the folks at /r/Feminism aren't as scary as you would think, most of them are level-headed.

you don't need to use feminism as a kind of ad hominem; attacking feminism instead of male issues. you can raise awareness about divorce court inequality, about sexual molestation perpetrated by women, about the workplace dangers faced by men, all without drawing feminism into the whole mess too. It only ends up starting stupid, counter-productive flame wars.

My main issue with the post is that it generalizes. By all means, if you see stupid radical feminism BS, feel free to point it out and combat it, because I do agree that radical feminism is a mens issue. But to say that ALL feminists are misandristic, men hating bigots who dont care at all about mens issues is just plain wrong.

[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

you can raise awareness about divorce court inequality

Feminists call it patriarchal domination and fathers' rights groups "abusers' lobbies."

about sexual molestation perpetrated by women

Doesn't happen, according to most feminists, or happens so rarely as to not be of interest.

about the workplace dangers faced by men

Male privilege/benevolent sexism, according to feminists. Men deserve those workplace deaths by hogging all the well-paying jobs to themselves and relegating women to the private sphere.

if you see stupid radical feminism BS

All social theory behind feminism IS stupid radical feminism BS.

But to say that ALL feminists are misandristic, men hating bigots who dont care at all about mens issues is just plain wrong.

The feminists who are not misandric, man-hating bigots are either ill-informed by the misandric, man-hating bigots in charge of their movement, or entirely ignorant of (or don't care) what institutional feminism is doing in their name and persist in thinking feminism is actually about equality. Feminism is about freedom and rights for women, not necessarily for men, and fighting for freedom and rights for one group to the exclusion of another does not lead to equality.

[–]woofoo 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]crack-en 14 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

apologies, that was harsh paraphrasing on my part. I'm speaking to the number of posts that I've seen here recently such as this one that group rational feminists in with the extremists (many of which do hate men, and are mandristic and bigoted).

The point is posts that do nothing but lash out at feminism do us no good, they're just bad press. There are enough serious, relevant Men's issues to discuss without resorting to unprovoked attacks against feminism.

[–]woofoo -2 points-1 points0 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Alanna 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women, on average and by demographic don't work as hard as men do. Women have a higher percentage of office jobs. Men have a vastly vastly higher percentage of manual labor jobs, such as warehousing, shipping, trucking, logging, fishing, construction, etc etc etc. I've worked hard in my life, from slinging coffee to stocking books (woman here), but I would never presume to say I work as hard as a guy cutting down trees and schlepping the logs.

The point, however, was driven at the "wage gap," one popular illustration of which compares raw salaries without accounting for the kind of work done. Other numbers that do compare similar work do not account for hours worked. Other numbers that adjust for number of hours worked don't take into account the greater amount of time women tend to take off or the greater tendency of women to abandon career altogether for family.

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Do you think that the feminist movement should move more toward gender equality or should there just be a feminist movement and a men's right's movement?

I will never trust feminist to deal with men's issues in a fair manner. I think that ideally what should happen is that there should be one movement and subgroups within that movement that look at specific issues. If you have two movements there are always going to be fights, because there needs to be a balance between reducing rape and preventing false accusations, for example. Unfortunately, because of feminisms repeated dismissal of men's issues and feminisms anti-male attitudes feminism can never be that movement, unless it change almost all of what it does in a unilateral way.

Personally, I think it is in women's best interest to support the MRM more than the feminist movement, because I think most of the things feminism does to try to help women are useless or actually harmful to women's issues because feminists are so blinded by their ideology they ignore the facts.

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Title	Things you'll never see feminists demand...
Author	deathsythe
Upvotes	76
Comments	166
Date	March 28, 2012 2:38 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/rhkoo/things_youll_never_see_feminists_demand/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/things-youll-never-see-feminists-demand.1025097 https://theredarchive.com/post/1025097

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