Deconstructing: EMSK why "the red pill" will kill you inside

TalShar · 2014-10-21T19:22:01+00:00

/u/strategicatomicmoose (What a name!) did an excellent job of explaining the crevices that the OP poked into and my intent behind saying what I said.

Here's how I responded to the original author of the piece via private message, since I am not subbed to TRP:

We disagree on some key points, mainly that sexual strategy is an inviolate part of human interaction. I don't think there's really any getting around that by arguing, for either of us. In the days and weeks that followed writing my post, I got bombarded with everything from "Fuck you I'mma dox you and put you in an armbar until you're lying on the ground crying and bleeding" (I wish I was exaggerating), to "The Red Pill really isn't so bad, you should check it out."

Every one of my points was picked apart. Some of them I defended. Others I conceded. I realize there are some guys who take just enough of the Red Pill to allow them to be confident individuals who won't put up with abuse. That's great for them (no sarcasm; it really is). After writing that article I got a long, tortuous lesson about what the Red Pill is and isn't, from both sides. What it isn't is "always bad." But what it is is "in need of another helping of discretion." The ones advocating black-knighting, dread tactics, etc. need to be more strongly criticized in that subreddit, and I'm not sure how, but I think a better job could be done presenting a more appropriate face to the outside world; a face that reflects what some of the more mature and understanding members of TRP seem to believe about relationships.

The fact is, as I stated in one of my earlier edits to the thread, I don't hate the Red Pill as a whole. I hate the guys who use what they learn there to abuse their girlfriends and wives. I hate the ones who say women have "hamster" brains, or that they function on a level that's somehow inferior to that of men. I hate the ones that set it up like women in general like to be abused, to be kept guessing about what their husband or boyfriend wants, or to be kept in a constant state of uncertainty regarding the stability of their relationship. I understand from the flood of messages I got that those are in the minority. I'm not sure how true that is, but I'm willing to regard it as being true for the sake of argument. But somehow they seem to get a lot of attention, even on your own subreddit.

Basically though, I hate it when people, official Red Piller or no, turn their wives and girlfriends in to blue pill women.

I think your subreddit, both the mods and the community, could do a slightly better job of making it clear that that kind of emotional abuse is far from what is desired, both internally, to one another, and externally, to the other communities surrounding it. I had a lot of polite Red Pillers inbox me after writing that piece telling me that you guys aren't all like what I was describing. My suggestion is: Try to find ways to make that more obvious to the rest of your community and to everyone watching from outside.

[deleted] · 2014-10-21T18:49:56+00:00

I'll take a stab at this. Wish me luck

Alright, fair enough, there are quite a few posters here still getting over the anger phase [6] , and it's understandable that they want to express their feelings. Personally, I do think that we could do with toning it down. A post that is just venting is all well and good, but unless it's contributing something worthwhile and not just "women are all whores and I hate them", I don't think it belongs in TRP. Not sure where it could be directed (except toward lifting), but we need to keep it a bit lower-key.

Maybe it's just me, but personally, I don't see the need for an anger phase. Anger at its core is an emotion that is prone to rotting the individual from the inside out. It is self-destructive, and while it is ok to get angry from time to time, to be an angry individual is a long-term issue. That being said, this passage isn't bad. That is just my commentary

The idea of the "Red Pill" as is commonly used now, is that men are constantly losing a war of what [link to TRP] users refer to as "Sexual strategy." Essentially the premise is that women have what we want (sex), and they can make us bend over backwards to get it. They have us wrapped around their little fingers. Those who "take the Red Pill" awaken to their true male potential and learn to get what they want without having to submit and forfeit their masculinity.

I don't see how this is a bad thing. According to the premise of TRP, refusing to let others take advantage of you is a good thing, and women have been taking advantage of men who don't know better is what TRP prevents.

One issue here is that, while TRP may prevent people from taking advantage of you, it flips it on its head, and does start to venture into the territory of taking advantage of others. This would be more believable if TRP saw things in more of a gradient than straight black and white.

The subreddit is rife with success stories from men who claim they've gotten what they want out of their relationship. One guy claims (and I'm paraphrasing), "She does my laundry and dishes, we have sex whenever I want, and she knows that I don't belong to her, and if she ever slips up or takes me for granted, she’s gone."

Now on this account I must disagree, because there's not enough data. The poster didn't mention, and TalShar isn't trying to find out, why a woman would tolerate such a situation. It couldn't be that she's happy with it, could it? It couldn’t be that she's getting the benefits of an LTR with a guy who she genuinely likes, and sees doing the dishes/laundry as an act of love? Maybe she's a woman who's willing to work at a relationship, and the poster hasn't discussed what he brings to the table (and you better believe he's bringing something, else she'd be out of there faster than a hamster out of cage) The other thing I wanted to focus on from this paragraph is:

I'll take a stab at this. Basically, what /u/TalShar is describing is a one-sided relationship. Sure, relationships can absolutely be traditional, no problem with that, but the issue comes with the inherent one-sided-ness that a traditional relationship will have, unless both people enjoy that type of dynamic

if she ever slips up [snip], she’s gone.

TRP teaches that this applies equally to males. Failure to hold frame, showing weakness, giving in to her shit-tests, all of these will lead to her becoming less attracted to you, and once it gets to a certain point, leaving. Is it emotional abuse to say that you'll drop a woman if she doesn't perform? Maybe, but since a "slip up" is likely to be something major (like kissing another man) and not "I haven't ironed your shirts because I had a visit from my friend that took longer than I anticipated", it's hardly the massive issue u/TalShar makes it out to be.

There is nothing wrong with showing weakness. Holding frame all the time is impossible, weakness is something that makes us human. While some forms of weakness absolutely can be unattractive (whining about the smallest things), others illustrate the type of person that someone is and highlight the good qualities they may have.

What the Red Pill advocates is taking advantage of common weak points in the typical female psyche (most of which are present in your typical male psyche as well; everyone has weak points, and most of them are common to all humans, though some are more pronounced in one sex or another) to put pressure on women and bend them to your will. Users advise doing things like keeping her guessing, changing what you want and then berating her for not keeping up with your whims.

Yup. TRP advocates taking advantage of women to bend them to your will. It absolutely says "the best basis for a good relationship is Stockholm Syndrome". It doesn't say "she does it because you make her happy and she wants to reciprocate". When we tell people to "Be clear, but most importantly, be *decisive. Make a plan and stick to it", we are absolutely advocating "changing what you want" and "whimsy".

Several advise that you never show affection for her unless she’s done something to please you.

Yes and no. Positive reinforcement is great, but we don't say "don't send her random little gifts as surprises". I've never once seen a post on TRP saying "women hate to receive a bouquet of flowers without doing anything to deserve it." Also, is u/TalShar saying "never initiate" or "you should show affection even when she's not behaving"? For the record, I think that they aren't, but the statement was a little ambiguous (that could be our fault too).

One of the traits TRP touts is unpredictability. While spontaneity is encouraged, in general, unpredictability is a different animal. Unpredictability is one of the key components of dread game, the threat that one is not afraid to use their options is unpredictable at its core. While there will always be some level of insecurity in every individual, TRP encourages individuals in some cases to sow insecurity (the Thermonuclear Option is an example, and is some of the most disgusting behavior I have ever seen described).

Anyway, that is a lot for now, maybe I will delve into this more later. Being in class and trying to take notes while doing this isn't exactly a good idea.

[deleted] · 2014-10-22T09:10:27+00:00

Frankly the issue begins with "sexual strategy" as such. I think it is much more decent to have a romance/relationship "strategy" with sexuality as a part of it.

Sexual strategy sounds to me an awful lot like "how to convince women to let us use their bodies". My point is not even that it is immoral or misogynist, my point is why would I even want this? I would be missing on on so much if I would not pursue full relationships.

My point is, having the need for a sexual strategy is in and of itself problematic, and then everything else just makes it worse from there.

Again my objection is not moralistic. I simply have no need for free prostitutes when I can just as well have romantic love with mutual understanding. And I don't understand guys who do. Basically this.

Also... I would understand that if we would live in a tough world, everything including "mating" would be rather ruthless. But we don't. Well, I don't, I don't know how things work in Haiti... but I am living in a comfortable first-world city. I am not a tough guy - never needed to develop it. Nothing in my life is harsh or though or ruthless or calculating or anything, because nothing needs to be. In these circumstances men and women can afford to be generous and understanding, there is no dire need pushing us to not be so.

TomHicks · 2014-10-22T15:55:47+00:00

Its a worthless cliche ridden feel good post that offers no critique but "it works, but its bad, and ur bad if u use it, mmkay?" and no alternative except the trite "be excellent to each other." He covers no ground that hasn't been covered before, but hey, its what people want to hear right?

If you're looking for critique on TRP, you'd find better luck here than on the cesspool of a subreddit that guy started.

ms_kittyfantastico · 2014-10-21T18:33:53+00:00

Working on a novel? :)

The subreddit is rife with success stories from men who claim they've gotten what they want out of their relationship. [...] It's not that I doubt what he's saying. I believe it. The problem is, what he's describing is emotional abuse.

Now on this account I must disagree, because there's not enough data. The poster didn't mention, and TalShar isn't trying to find out, why a woman would tolerate such a situation. It couldn't be that she's happy with it, could it? It couldn’t be that she's getting the benefits of an LTR with a guy who she genuinely likes, and sees doing the dishes/laundry as an act of love? Maybe she's a woman who's willing to work at a relationship, and the poster hasn't discussed what he brings to the table (and you better believe he's bringing something, else she'd be out of there faster than a hamster out of cage)

I agree. It's just that filling in some details as opposed to saying "I can do whatever I want in my relationship or she's gone" really implies selfishness. Brevity is not your friend in this case.

Yup. TRP advocates taking advantage of women to bend them to your will. It absolutely says "the best basis for a good relationship is Stockholm Syndrome". It doesn't say "she does it because you make her happy and she wants to reciprocate". When we tell people to "Be clear, but most importantly, be *decisive. Make a plan and stick to it", we are absolutely advocating "changing what you want" and "whimsy". [/s]

I want to agree with you, but posts about the mental inferiority of females leads me to disagree with you. For example: To prove that women are inferior treat them as equals and see what happens..

This is akin to saying "You must break a child like you would an animal". No. Just no.

Not sure how it's different...

Methods like keeping your prisoner guessing, changing what you want, keeping them off balance, those are all interrogation techniques meant to break your prisoner down on a mental and emotional level and produce a compliant charge.

That sounds suspiciously similar to a shit test to me. As far as I can tell, Red Pill men tend to be forthright about what they want, and it rarely changes.

That sounds suspiciously similar to dread game to me.

(Will update as I read more. Phew!)

[deleted] · 2014-10-21T20:26:51+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	Deconstructing: EMSK why "the red pill" will kill you inside
Author	IVIaskerade
Upvotes	11
Comments	154
Date	October 21, 2014 6:16 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2jwspj/deconstructing_emsk_why_the_red_pill_will_kill/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/deconstructing-emsk-why-the-red-pill-will-kill-you.284539 https://theredarchive.com/post/284539

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