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Discuss whether TRP has misandristic elements.

I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOT

November 12, 2013

9 upvotes

/r/PurplePillDebate

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Post Information

Title	Discuss whether TRP has misandristic elements.
Author	I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOT
Upvotes	9
Comments	98
Date	November 12, 2013 9:16 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1qhfqy/discuss_whether_trp_has_misandristic_elements/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/discuss-whether-trp-has-misandristic-elements.286626 https://theredarchive.com/post/286626

Comments

[–]I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOTGot my middle finger raised while I'm running red lights[S] 14 points15 points16 points 12 years ago (98 children) | Copy Link

We discuss misogyny in PPD and TBP a great deal. But let's hear one for the boys. We have men in TBP. I have male friends. I have a brother and a father I love dearly who made me who I am today. I'm so proud of them. And I should probably start this post before I get soppy.

First I'm going to explain how I'm using the words misandry and misogyny is this context. When I talk about them, I am not referring to misogynistic or misandristic individuals. We're not talking about isolated male/female supremacists or whatever. What we are talking about, is something that is institutionalised, woven into the fabric of media, society, the hidden curriculum, interaction, etc, because this counts for a hell of a lot more than isolated incidents.

Let me extend this to say - anyone can be misandristic or misogynistic. Men can be misandrists and women can be misogynists. Sad but true.

At the heart of TRP, and society in general, resides the following assumptions:

-Men are stronger physically than women (if averages are applied this is generally accepted by science.)

-Men are stronger mentally and emotionally than women (a very convoluted subject that you can debate somewhere very far away from this thread.)

What's striking about both TRP and society is how these things are exaggerated to a point where we have men cast as "rational" beings, and women cast as "hamsters", incapable of love and logic, the most responsible teenager in the house.

Now how, one may ask, could that possibly be misandristic? It's glorifying and empowering men, isn't it? Well, no. It's not.

Surprised? Hold that thought, because we're going to come back to it in a minute.

Moving over to a different topic. Chivalry. At the heart of chivalry resides the following assumptions: -Women are purer than men. -Women are physically weaker than men, but deserving of their help and protection.

This is sexist at best, misogynistic at worst. Now how, one may ask, could that possibly be misogynistic? It's glorifying and empowering women, isn't it? Well, no. It’s not.

And here the twain shall meet. What happens when you elevate one group onto a pedestal?

Shit happens, that's what. You get expectations. You get irrelevant standards. You get victimised in different ways. Both genders pay for it. It could be said that non-binaries pay an even heavier price. Let’s forget who pays the most for it, and acknowledge that we all pay for it.

In the case of chivalry, women who do not meet the standards provided are sluts, bitches and whores. “She’s not pure? What a whore.” “She won’t let me hold the door open for her? What a bitch!”

In the case of TRP and society, men who do not meet the standards provided are pussies, manginas and wimps. "He won't carry me home? What a wimp." "He won't jump the fence to get my ring? What a pussy."

And that, my dear friends, is misogyny and misandry respectively. "I'll only respect you if you conform to your gender roles and do things the way I think you should be doing them, and make decisions that I think you should be making."

If you do not respect men and women that go against their gender roles, then you don't respect men and women, full stop.

One statistic often cited by MRAs is that men are more likely to be the victims of violent crime. This is true. The current societal structure assumes men are more powerful than women (I mean this beyond physical terms, though I will include that.) Advice on safety, however controversial, is almost always targeted at women. Men are rarely advised to "not get too drunk", to avoid dark alleys, avoid conflict, etc.. This kind of advice is almost exclusively given to women. All too often this advice can branch out into victim blaming. Let's push that aside for a sec. Women are taught assertiveness, tiny safety tips, assessments for domestic violence, women's shelters, etc.

Men, on the other hand. It is assumed that this safety and assertiveness knowledge is somehow ingrained into the Y chromosome. The obvious problem being – it's just not. You only have to look at violent crime victim statistics to realise that. Men are not provided with advice on safety so they are more likely to fall victim to crime. Men are perceived as stronger, so it's expected that they can "take it". What's more striking is that they're also less likely to report it – after all, again, society expects men to just be able to take it. But they cannot, for we are all human and have these things, they're called emotions, like a chemical thingy in the brain. Not something that can be suppressed without later retribution. Checked out those male suicide rates lately? Depression rates? Of course you have. You're part of a system that thinks you can take it. It is run by rich nonces who live in posh neighbourhoods and never have to experience violent crime.

And this is the lowdown on misandry.

For a further example, /r/becomeaman. What's up with THAT, I ask you?

I have a step by step process on being a man right here for you. 1. If cisgendered, have male genitals. 2. Success. 3. If transgendered... uh, I guess if you identify as a man then you're already transgender. Success.

The message? As soon as you begin to narrow the definition of masculinity and disregard anyone who falls outside it as "not a real man", that's misandry. And it has consequences. Suicide rates. Depression going undiagnosed in men. Being victims of crime.

If you're feeling brave, take the /u/I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOT Absolutely Alpha Challenge and read up on prison rape's affiliation with patriarchy. Trigger warning, obviously.

[–]Spartacus321 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

For a further example, /r/becomeaman[1] . What's up with THAT, I ask you?

Unfortunately, our culture has defined masculinity as almost entirely good, useful things that are difficult to emulate. An ideal masculine man is to be strong, emotionally secure, successful, skillfull, brave, aggressive, and good at not only attaining women but pleasing them as well.

Honestly that's a fucking exhausing list, and if you complain about it you're less masculine. That's why that sub exists- while they, in my opinion, do often give a narrow view of what a man is supposed to do, the sub is there because many men feel overwhelmed by what's expected of them and they want to ask how they can improve themselves to make themselves closer to the ideal. They expect certain things of themselves, the men around them expect certain things from them, and women expect things from them as well (or so men are often made to feel).

Also, for a guy, you're expected to show some form of masculinity (strength, aggression, detachment, skill, etc), but rarely are you told the degree to which it is acceptable to show these traits. Should you be hyper-aggressive so you'll be respected? Or will that just come off as you being an asshole/immature? How strong do you have to be so you don't seem weak? What things should you know how to do as a man so you aren't seen as incompetent?

In my opinion, modern masculinty and the expectations that come with it boil down to one word: responsibility. You are responsible for making yourself into an attractive, successful man, and if other people aren't respecting you then it's probably because you were too weak to live up to society's standards.

If you can't please/attract a woman, you're less of a man. If you can't do x, y, and z you're less of a man. If you're not benching x amount or showing tone in your muscles, you're less of a man. If you don't have the skills or emotional fortitude to get through a crisis cooly, you're less of a man. If you don't go after what you want/need, you're less of a man. Oh, and guess what? You shouldn't bother complaining or feeling nervous about living up to these expectations because if you do you're less of a man.

That's a lot of pressure to live up to, and that's why that sub exists. Personally, I think that's also why TRP and the manosphere exist. Men feel a lot of responsibility, and once they realize there's this societal pressure to be better than they are they react in certain ways.

Personally I think TRP is the way it is because they are trying to emulate what they envision to be society's "perfect man" (they often take this to an extreme, hence the "trouble finding a degree of masculinity" part of my comment), but at the same time are angry that women don't seem to be held to the same standard. So I don't think TRP is misandrist. I just think they're trying to fit into roles that are practically impossible to fulfill. As for them being misogynist... that's a different story.

tl;dr: A long rant that I didn't edit and wrote while tired so it's probably stupid.

[–]I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOTGot my middle finger raised while I'm running red lights[S] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Spartacus321 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]alphabetmodamused modstery2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (56 children) | Copy Link

As soon as you begin to narrow the definition of masculinity and disregard anyone who falls outside it as "not a real man", that's misandry.

There is a narrow definition of masculinity though. If one does not posses these traits, then he is not "masculine." And that's okay. It doesn't mean he's not a "real man." I have a problem with masculine traits being called "toxic." I like part of my "gender-role" and if what people are striving for is freedom to choose, then I should be able to do what it is I feel comfortable with. Whether that be being 'stoic' (which some would say is toxic masculinity because I don't really show my emotions) being 'not-violent-but-I-would-defend-a-woman' (which is seen as being "too prepared to be violent") so the entire concept of "toxic masculinity" is misandry as well.

[–]I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOTGot my middle finger raised while I'm running red lights[S] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (55 children) | Copy Link

There is a narrow definition of masculinity though.

Not necessarily. In this context, masculine means "of a man". There are alternative masculine identities such as "nerd", "emo", "athletic", "artistic", "musician", "lad", new identities that are masculine by the virtue of being adopted by what you might call a subculture of men. But to call all of those "beta" and to only have "alpha" as an acceptable masculine identity is unhealthy for society and for young men in general who are already under a lot of pressure.

It goes both ways. What I have a problem with is people pushing for only one identity to be acceptable. You're stoic? Good for you. That is part of your identity and it happens to overlap with the traditional male one.

"Toxic masculinity", I have heard that phrase but I'm not familiar with it. I presume it's an extreme of masculine traits?

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[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago* (40 children) | Copy Link

If women chased after nerds, emos, book worms, etc, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, now would we? The whole point of being alpha is to embody that which the majority of women want to have sex with. Who is glorified in high school, the football team or the valedictorian/overachiever? What are cheerleaders symbolic of? This is where the dynamic of alpha fucks / beta bucks starts to manifest itself. It continues into college with the fraternity and party system, while betas stay in their dorm and crack the books trying to create the value that women will ultimately desire after they ride all the alpha cock during their prime sexual value years.

Women are as much to blame for the current negative climate in TRP as men are. They are alpha/asshole enablers, left unchecked by any natural forces that humans have lived with since humanity started. They cannot help themselves anymore than a man can resist the temptations of a very hot woman. The natural system of checks and balances that has gotten us to this point as a species has been decimated. Slut shaming (currently under assault by feminists) is one of the last attempts by society to put a lid on an out of control system.

Ultimately, at the end of the day, he who wins is he who fucks. This is what this is all about. Some people, lets call them betas, are not getting fucked sufficiently, therefore there is an imbalance that is arguably not a natural condition of humanity, but an artificial one facilitated by our permissive culture, feminism, birth control, welfare, biased divorce courts, etc. There's actually some logic attached to traditional family values beyond the misogyny, ancient superstition, and the desire to have someone make you a sandwich.

Did you think that you could disassemble hundreds of thousands of years of human interactions in 50 years and not get some negative consequences associated with that? You would have to believe gender is a social construct to maintain such hubris. This is why TRP is a reactionary response to the subsidization and enabling of alpha and female reproductive strategy by society. Is RP perfect? Of course not, but it is what it is! Any true misogyny there is an artifact of the system's ongoing uncontrolled chaos, where the devaluing of humans is actually rewarded by enabling men to maintain a frame of mind that gets them fucked, against all of their natural tendency to not do this.

The fact that some of you people can't see ANY of this as valid is beyond my comprehension.

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[–]polyhooly6 points7 points8 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

If women chased after nerds, emos, book worms, etc,

You just described my perfect man. You just described my husband.

It's not the there is something inherently off-putting about those things to all women. If you are into those things, and women don't like you, maybe it is something about your personality, or that you are chasing women who have no similar interests as you, than it is that women in general, don't like those things.

The whole point of being alpha is to embody that which the majority of women want to have sex with.

Red Pillers love to operate in the club/party atmosphere, as evidenced by all the stories involving being in clubs. Sure, I'd agree the stereotypical clubbing party girl may not being into the nerdy emo bookworm, and that if you want to bed them, TRP is great strategy. But beyond that...

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[–]Azure_phantomBlue Pill3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I think that's a major part of the issue.

Red pill types go for the stereotypical high school cheerleader as portrayed in movies - young, attractive, generally dumb as a brick and always going for the high school jock. They pursue this type of immaturity as their ideal woman (god only knows why) and so they work on emulating the stereotypical high school jock as portrayed in movies (hyper aggressive, bully, hyper buff, treat women as disposable toys). Then they are astonished to find that these women they're pursuing are not ready for mature adult relationships and tend to be selfish or ditzy (who could imagine that?!)

The girls that go for the nerds or emos or sensitive types aren't the cheerleaders. They're themselves the nerds and geeks. Generally quiet, keep to themselves, don't go to clubs, work on their hobbies. The bookish sort. And since red pill types seem to get their culture from tv and movie stereotypes, the nerdy girls are generally also not attractive and have acne or bad hair or they're fat or something equally heinous.

So basically, they seem to get so caught up in chasing tv and movie stereotypes that they're dooming themselves to never have adult relationships. And the girls who don't want these types of guys don't count because they're too complex for a high school movie.

At least that's what it looks like - and given their complaints about women, seems accurate to me. And no, I know not all red pill men do that, but since you guys get to use sweeping generalizations for half the human race, I think I can do the same for an isolated internet group.

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Men go after what they are attracted to, same as women. That will never change, but our environment and society has a lot to do with it.

Women have to consider many issues when deciding who to select. When they are young they are free to toss many of these issues aside in favor of a more primal attraction to alpha behavior and appearance. Beta traits and security are not as relevant as they once were for a number of reasons. The guy cracking the books in college and early workplace is still building intellectual capital with which he will be able to negotiate a more reasonable deal later in life. This system operates as a sexual marketplace, this has been studied.

In the past these more brainy types were rewarded based on different societal and environmental forces. What was practical and safe trumped what was more adventurous and fun for example. But now modern society subsidizes female sexual strategy to the detriment of beta male dedication and productiveness, even though such people are very important to a successful society.

I love freedom, but there are consequences, and not all of them are necessarily good for everybody or society in general. Someone inevitably gets the short end of the stick when you start playing social engineer. You are suggesting beta males should lower their expectations and supplicate alpha domination of the top quartiles of females, and that may happen sometimes, but it won't always happen. There are other avenues to consider before surrendering your desires to the sub-optimal.

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[–]I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOTGot my middle finger raised while I'm running red lights[S] 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

See my edits above.

Traditional family values are simply the result of the natural forces that have impacted humanity for hundreds of thousands of years. The natural risk of getting pregnant, for example, has consequences for decision making and mating strategy. Choose poorly, and you are stuck with your poor choice. Smooth talking men are therefore more dangerous, and met with skepticism. Remove most of the risk, and they become attractive. Subsidize poor choices, and you will get more poor choices. This is why ancient religions preach abstinence, to avoid poor outcomes. This is also why whores are traditionally the lowest class of women.

When you encourage promiscuity and throw birth control (and abortion) into the mix, you have what is arguably a chaotic condition that humans have never been subjected to in our entire evolutionary history. This dynamic leads to a large redistribution of sexual wealth from betas to alphas, since betas must spend years in college and the workplace to build enough value to overcome the deficit created by such social engineering. The permissive atmosphere also devalues sex to a basic commodity for frivolous entertainment, hence current comparisons to sexual market value.

Sex is one of the highest human goods available to us, when you encourage promiscuity you devalue it, and by devaluing sex, you devalue relationships and people themselves, and arguably make divorces more likely. Men start to see you just as something to fuck rather than a person. And women start to see men as just what they can extract from them. Women don't like the objectification of them? Well, betas don't like the dollarization of men either. Alphas are fine with this situation, they are literally laughing to the genetic bank as their offspring reap the rewards of beta ingenuity, dedication, etc.

When a single mother fucks an alpha without birth control and gets pregnant out of wedlock, who pays most of the welfare (via taxes)? Highly productive betas.

When a woman grows disillusioned with a marriage to her beta provider, theoretically through no fault of his own, who does the court system side with primarily? Women. Kids, money, hers. Bye. So 66% of all divorces initiated by women, big surprise there. Social engineering disaster.

When women actually outnumber men in college, who gets the short end of the stick? Betas, also in college trying to create enough intellectual value to attract a woman. Women are in direct competition with betas for resources today, which means more devaluation of beta male academic achievement and success.

When a single mother finally decides she better stop fucking alphas, who does she turn to? Beta providers.

Wonderful system you've got here, except it's ass backwards if you're at all interested in the best interests of the next generation of human beings, and not self-interested primarily in your own immediate needs/desires/whatever. Humans are the smartest species on the planet for a reason. And some of those reasons are being disrupted today by our modern, civilized society.

[–]I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOTGot my middle finger raised while I'm running red lights[S] 7 points8 points9 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Sorry. You interpret sexual ethics from a Western perspective, ultimately from Abrahamic religions and traditions. It won't fly here.

Have you ever heard of the Nayar people? Sex ain't a big deal to them. The kids don't know who their fathers are. Yet their society operates just fine. That's not to say sexual relationships there are socially unapproved (by which I mean, they all have multiple husbands and wives. The men there are travelling mercenaries. Yet they don't care that they're sharing. The wives don't live with their husbands, they live alone or with other women. What you call evolution, they'd call bullshit.

The Ashanti tribe. Matrilineal. Children are raised by the mother's family. Only a third of the fathers even live in the same area as their wife.

The Hopi. They operate on female superiority. Biology? No. Social construct.

The Navajo have a third gender. Some societies have five genders.

You are a product of your society and my god does it show.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOTGot my middle finger raised while I'm running red lights[S] 8 points9 points10 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]redwhiskeredbubul2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Y'know what? I am a guy, I have my own definition, and I think what you are describing is a stunted manchild.

The reason is that you have an impoverished definition of responsibility. First of all, you've completely subordinated your sense of self-worth to the question of whether or not you get to have sex, which by definition makes you dependent on other people for validation. Moreover, the reasons you ascribe to said 'other people' for wanting to have sex are based on the shallowest cesspit in American/Anglophone society, the high school. High School students by definition are not men: they are boys and girls not capable of making their own choices. Yet you allow what you imagine their ideas to be to control your mind . You carry this logic into college, where you take something I'd think of as a worthwhile masculine pursuit--studying--and justify yourself by saying merely that it will allow you to do what the people who you hated in high school did, eventually. That's called resentment, and it's not something you want to live your life based on. Being a reactionary means dying on your knees.

[–]SuchPowerfulAlly1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]pickup_sticks 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]FleetingWishStepford Girl1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

And that, my dear friends, is misogyny and misandry respectively. "I'll only respect you if you conform to your gender roles and do things the way I think you should be doing them, and make decisions that I think you should be making."

No, frankly it's not. Saying "I only respect you if..." is something everyone does, even blue pillers. You know why? Respect is something earned, not something that is handed out on a silver platter. Let's say for instance that you subscribed to the belief that all, or even some, TRPers were "Jerks". Then isn't it true your beliefs fall in this category:

"I'll only respect you if you conform to your gender roles and do things the way I think you should be doing them, and make decisions that I think you should be making."

If your honest with yourself you'd see that there are people who don't subscribe to the decisions that you think they should be making. If not TPRers, maybe it's mass murders. Do you respect them, do they make the decisions you think they should be making? What about your friend who became a loser with no job, while you went on to work hard in your life, do you respect his decisions?

Respecting someone's decisions is not something somebody does when they believe that the other person is making bad decisions. What we do instead is try to help people make better decisions and become better people, or in some cases, just cut them out of our lives. Now we can have a discussion about whether or not RPers assessment of people's bad decisions is warranted, or correct, but we can't skip ahead to call that "a hate of all the sex". Your logic is flawed.

[–]I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOTGot my middle finger raised while I'm running red lights[S] 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]FleetingWishStepford Girl3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOTGot my middle finger raised while I'm running red lights[S] 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]FleetingWishStepford Girl3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]I_LOVE_CAPTION_BOTGot my middle finger raised while I'm running red lights[S] 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Actually, I said

We see TRP praising murderers for their dark triad traits

and you restated this argument as

TRP condone[s] murdering people

so I changed murdering to "murderers" in an attempt to remind of you my original argument.

Uh no, stating an observation like "there are women who seem to attracted to killers" is not the same thing as saying "you should go kill people".

However, this shows you have intentionally sabotaged and misrepresented the arguments. Goodbye.

Exactly, so then we agree that revoking respect doesn't make you misandrist. Your initial premise is invalid.

The premise is that if people make life choices that do not negatively affect others and you hate them for it, that's hatred of a special breed. In the case of a male not conforming to what you think males should conform to, it is misandry.

[–]FleetingWishStepford Girl0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The premise is that if people make life choices that do not negatively affect others and you hate them for it, that's hatred of a special breed. In the case of a male not conforming to what you think males should conform to, it is misandry.

Again, as I stated in my initial statement,

Now we can have a discussion about whether or not RPers assessment of people's bad decisions is warranted, or correct, but we can't skip ahead to call that "a hate of all the sex".

You don't get to be the sole arbiter of deciding what qualifies traits makes someone lose respect for someone else. There is no rule that says "it's only ok to lose respect for someone if they are harming someone else", because if there were even you would fail this test. I suspect you're not being entirely honest with me, that you've never refurred to someone as a "jerk".

[–]nicethingyoucanthaveRed Pill Male1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

If you do not respect men and women that go against their gender roles, then you don't respect men and women, full stop.

That's interesting. Let me give you something to think about.

To a blue piller, a gender role is something that is imposed. The patriarchy tells women they ought to be stay-at-home moms. It tells men that they shouldn't do those thing. To a blue piller, a gender role is an instrument of oppression.

You ask about men and women that go against their gender roles - well, consider this: what about men and women who just so happen to like their gender roles?

If gender roles are instruments of oppression, then someone who likes them is supporting oppression.

A woman who actually wants to be a stay-at-home mom is either (according to blue pillers) deluded, has internalized the misogyny, or is just an uncle tom (special snowflake is the more modern slur that SRS uses). She is either a victim, or she is a collaborator.

This is why you have prominent feminists saying things like, "being a housewife isn't a choice that women ought to have" (paraphrased, I'll find the actual quote if you care).

A man who actually wants to be traditionally manly (however you define that) is either (according to blue pillers) an oppressor or a rapist or a misogynist - probably all three.

This is why you have prominent posters in /r/thebluepill saying that TRP wants to force women to be '50s housewives, and saying that we probably want to own slaves too (this happened months ago, but I might be able to find the quote if you don't believe me). It's why feminists call traditional masculinity "toxic" - which is amusingly similar to men describing female sexuality as "slutty" but the irony is lost on them.

By contrast, to a red-piller, a gender role is something that is natural. It's in our nature. Our culture reflects that nature back to us, sometimes accentuating it and sometimes repressing it - but never causing it.

But this is critical, since you asked about people who buck the gender role. What do we actually think about them? If a man wants to be a stay-at-home dad or a woman wants to work in a coal mine - what do we think? Cool. Good for you.

The red pill understands all things related to gender as falling on a bell curve. We know there are outliers. It's not a big deal to us. The difference between what the red pill believes and what the blue pill believes is that issue of oppression. Since we don't believe in a vast cultural conspiracy to keep people down, we have no antagonist to hate on when we spot an outlier.

So you ask, "what about people who buck their gender role?" The answer is, TRP says: cool. Good for you. You're an outlier. Go in peace. Seek happiness in your own way.

And I ask you, "what about people who like their gender role?" The answer (if you'll be honest), is that the blue pill says: uncle tom. toxic masculinity. oppression. patriarcy! rape culture! grrr!!

You do not have the moral high ground that you thought you had

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This is (or at least should be) what everyone strives for. TRP recognizes that a guy that is happy being an unhealthy, unattractive, (enter whatever other traits women don't generally find attractive here) person that is looking for a mate won't have much success.

I have a SO. She loves the hell out of me despite my "betaness". It's a happy, loving relationship. I'm not the most attractive man in the world, but I'm not completely bottom tier. I don't lift, but I'm still relatively fit. I do all sorts of "beta" behavior that people like, and I've been respected all the more for that (by my SO and by many other people). By many respects, I'm the typical beta male. But again, according to the above definition, I'm classified as not beta (meaning that I must be alpha), since I'm perfectly satisfied with my life and would also consider it to be quite successful.

Part of the problem is that the binary and oftentimes contradictory definitions that TRP has set up lead to this kind of issue.

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To a blue piller, a gender role is something that is imposed. The patriarchy tells women they ought to be stay-at-home moms. It tells men that they shouldn't do those thing. To a blue piller, a gender role is an instrument of oppression. A woman who actually wants to be a stay-at-home mom is either (according to blue pillers) deluded, has internalized the misogyny, or is just an uncle tom (special snowflake is the more modern slur that SRS uses). She is either a victim, or she is a collaborator.

Stay at home mom Blue Piller here (well, not a full time stay at home mom, I do coach about 18 hours worth of gymnastics, mostly in the evening, a week). Your analysis simply is wrong. My husband and I follow several traditional gender roles. There are tons of women who don't lead my life, and don't want my life. That is the problem with gender roles. They may apply to some people, sure, but there are plenty of people to whom they don't apply. Feminists (most, anyway) and TBP is not advocating that no one ever follow a traditional gender role. If that's what you want, good for you. Keep doing what you're doing. It's the belief that men and women, for the most part, should fall into these categories, and if they don't, they are defective.

In addition, the role I am currently in is not a role I will be at in five years. I am in school currently for my BSN. There will be a point in time where I am a full time career woman and mom. Things aren't as black and white as Red Pillers like to assume.

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