"Know your enemy"

Unhappy_Offer_1822 · 2024-06-15T13:26:37+00:00

a lot of what is posted here is subjective and a matter of opinion. most ideologies follow the same pattern so the fine details dont matter especially if you are looking for a logical explanation. the problem with ideologies is that while they can make some decent points, none of this is absolute and they dont understand the other side

N-Zoth · 2024-06-15T17:25:21+00:00

The red pill hardly qualifies as an "ideology". More than anything, it's just a creative writing assignment about how badass and manly you are.

It's one of those things where the more you read about it, the less it will make sense.

half3mptyhalffull · 2024-06-15T18:25:19+00:00

i think i could steelman different points of view, but theres a lot of variety within each, so i think id have to subcatagorize before steelmanning.

eg: there are rp guys that value women and have traditional views on gender roles. and there are rp guys who resent women, and have traditional views on gender roles. those two points of view contradict each other from my perspective.

also

eg: there are feminists who want both men and women to be safe, supported, and heard. and there are feminists who are misandrists. those are also two very different points of view.

i think part of why there is so much misunderstanding between those two groups in particular is that each, respectively, tends to lump all subcats of the other into one, when really its more nuanced than that.

KayRay1994 · 2024-06-15T14:47:29+00:00

I used to be ‘in’ the redpill and even followed dudes like Rollo, Alpha Male Strategies and a few others, but it always felt wrong and I was always ignoring my gut sense of “this is an awful way to treat someone” - I even had a friend who fell deep into the blackpill and that was a horrible sight to see, like the shit these people say is awful - thing is all these influencers and creators is the content they put out has some level of truth, but they always take these truths and mend them in some extend and awful ways. So I’d say I know both pretty well.

Now, as for the truths - for the blackpill, looks matter - but they also don’t matter as much as the blackpill thinks. As for the redpill, i won’t address the basic advice (ie. work out, make money, develop confidence, etc) cause these very general forms of advice shouldn’t be associated with the redpill, like you don’t need an internet ideology to tell you these work - but they do tap into some explicit gender differences, but, again, they take these differences and describe them in the worst ways. Like if you take what they’re saying about how men and women you realize they’re describing clear differences between masculinity and femininity… problem is they think both toxic masculinity and femininity are the default.

Pola_Lita · 2024-06-15T19:41:10+00:00

You're right. If I had to guess I'd say there's only a 50/50 chance that anything that's posted to PPD is made in good faith. That's pretty bad.

I think there are many who respond primarily as a means of venting rather than communicating anything useful.

berichorbeburied · 2024-06-15T13:04:07+00:00

I always try to understand other positions and others true intentions before fully disagreeing or looking for flaws.

I rarely emotionally attack or disrespect someone personally. (Unless they do it to me first. And even that is dependent on how emotional I am at the time or if I feel I have to prove that I can defend myself)

The one “flaw” I have. Is I’ll try to think steps in advance. And try to counter those points preemptively.

So it might come across as if I’m misrepresenting what’s being said or putting words in people’s mouths.

But really I’m just over thinking multiple possibilities and scenarios.

Unfortunately most (not all) people will only react emotionally. Pick a single phrase or idea. But then not debate the idea.

But just attack you personally. Which is counter productive.

Why attack the messenger. When it’s the message that can live forever?

I wish one day this will be a place where we can actually debate ideas without emotions or at least not let the emotions take away from debating the ideas

MistyMaisel · 2024-06-16T04:11:58+00:00

The problem is that the steel man of their positions alters them so greatly so as to hardly be the same as the argument being made.

That's the problem with where red pill and black pill have gone...They've degenerated so heavily from what was an extremely solid position, I would say.

DarayRaven · 2024-06-15T13:07:04+00:00

So my post I want to ask everyone some questions: How well do you know this ideology that you disagree with?

Very well

Can you steelman their position WITHOUT insulting them or using inflammation buzzwords?

Yes

Is there a perspective on a topic around dating or marriage that you can give them full credit for having a stronger or more reasonable stance on WITHOUT insulting them or using inflammation buzzwords?

They've nothing "reasonable" which is why l can easily break down their points because they'll use a strawman against you

Sharplove365 · 2024-06-15T14:46:22+00:00

The points you made make as much sense as gollum wearing a pretzel as a ring.

CraftyCooler · 2024-06-15T15:43:34+00:00

I have a dilemma - because i agree with intersectional feminism, but I also know that majority of self proclaimed feminists do not support this views at all. Pop-feminism or tik-tok feminism is plain old man-hating and oppression olympics and plenty of grifters looking fir making money on it. Internet is shaping views nowadays and if we take a look at largest "support sub", that is clearly aspiring to being feminist - we can see that it is obsessed with men, probably 90% if this sub is man-hating. This silly man vs. bear discussion is basically modern feminism.

AutoModerator · 2024-06-15T12:55:46+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

kongeriket · 2024-06-16T04:43:10+00:00

I am well-versed in the ideologies that I despise: Communism, feminism, anarcho-socialism and fascism (which I view as different facets of collectivist anti-human trash).

I speak Russian and Italian (and another 11 languages) - so I could read Lenin and Giovanni Gentile in their original. And Aleksandr Dugin (for modern fascism). And Inessa Armand and And Alexandra Kollontai (for original Bolshevism and Marxism-Feminism). And a whole plethora of foundational works on totalitarian ideologies.

I also speak French so I read Simone de Beauvoir in original (including posthumously published work and non-canonical writings that feminists aren't even aware they exist).

I read a lot more about the ideologies of my "enemies" than they will read about my ideologies in several lifetimes.

How did that help me? Well, aside from winning a few international debate competitions,... not that much.

It definitely didn't help me online, lol. Most of the self-proclaimed feminists or communists or fascists these days are dumber than a rock and have no idea about the tradition they supposedly identify with. Like... most Marxists today are against the people owning guns - when Marx himself explicitly endorsed workers to be owning guns.

Most self-proclaimed feminists deny that their worldview is Marxian at the very least - yet their views on family are quite literally from Engels' work The Origin of the Family, Property and the State.

Most self-proclaimed fascists today have no idea who Giovanni Gentile is. Let alone understand the formation of fascist thought.

Can you steelman their position WITHOUT insulting them or using inflammation buzzwords?

Yes. But it doesn't help at all in most of ordinary life (including online). Because most people aren't arguing in good faith. Heck, even in some academic settings it doesn't quite help - since they will use inflammation buzzwords anyway.

In current academe feminists get away with extreme shit like this and call it "research" - but heaven forbid you respond in kind. Heck, on this sub I was told there's nothing wrong with calling healthy male organs "death bits" but heaven forbid I make similarly extreme points about uteri or boobs.

I think you're treating Reddit with too high standards. This sub is choke full of bad faith trolls, literal teenagers and broken people. So such expectations are unreasonable.

Independent-Mail-227 · 2024-06-15T13:01:06+00:00

I know in fully, in fact better than those that preach it.

Title	"Know your enemy"
Author	BlackFurosuto
Upvotes	8
Comments	31
Date	June 15, 2024 12:55 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1dghd94/know_your_enemy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/know-your-enemy.1521653 https://theredarchive.com/post/1521653

Comments