Dating lower

PumpkinSub · 2017-06-15T15:36:40+00:00

Careful of calling it "dating down". Even in quotes. It perpetuates that people who make less are somehow less. Perhaps you already know this and are using it to get your point across but it's always good to be reminded of the language we use.

You say your current man has ambition. I dated a man who had millions in his bank and men who had the luxuries they wanted but it didn't help them be a man I respected. They were not hard working and mostly just enjoyed the appearance of it all. They loved going out to fancy restaurants but CBF to get their resume up and running or take initiative with things around the house. Not to say all men who have money are like this but I just wanted to paint a picture that a man with ambition and know how are worthy characteristics much more so than money in my opinion. This is where RPW shine, because we can be a supportive partner to those ambitious men and with our love and support they will go so far and shine so bright. You say your man wants to make things good for you. With your loyalty, I bet he will do just that.

I would call it a deal breaker if that man had no ambition to change his surroundings because that lack of drive to change/upgrade/move forward shows through in many other areas of life. If what you say about your BF is true, you don't have much to worry about.

GuestQuest · 2017-06-15T16:40:09+00:00

I don't have a general problem with people calling it 'dating down' because it's entirely possible to date someone below your own social class. They won't have the same experiences, or lifestyle that you do.

How long were you MC for? From your description, even though you have more money and experiences you still sound solidly MC in your values, and outlook. This explains why you feel more comfortable and drawn to MC men.

Have you dated any UMC men? Or are the UMC men that you can pull not as attractive as the MC ones?

It's common for people to think that money is what defines class, but it's actually values. For example, no one would ever mistake Snoop Dog for someone that's UC. He is wealthy, but he still lives by prole values. There's nothing good or bad about that.

Dating down can be very hard if your family is genuinely from a higher class than the person you're dating. It means that the people you bring home won't be able to fit into your world at all, that you'll have different priorities and values. It sounds like although you have done a lot of things, you still think of money (and even shop) with a very MC mindset. "A few brand name purses" and the way you talk about luxury items is all solidly MC. Again that's not bad. There's a great article about how different classes shop and brand-signal. Low classes will be very obvious and loud in their selections, MC will go for the well known brands. Different classes either try to signal 'up' or 'laterally' and distinguish themselves from others. UC won't buy brands you've heard of, nor will they feature brand signs. They signal laterally and only to other UC. It's a secret code that outsiders won't understand or pick up on.

The good news is that you really aren't 'dating down,' you're only dating men that make less money than you do. Therefore this is not a class issue, it is a monetary one.

It's not impossible for a woman to make more than her man and for the couple to be happy. However, it's far more common for resentment and issues to crop up. You've already noticed that men, without the actual means to do so break their butt to give you a taste of the life you currently live. Do you think that's a sustainable long-term mentality for any man? To work his ass off to give you a fraction of what you can already give yourself?

There's a reason so many relationships where the man makes less experience issues. Men want to provide, they want to a place of security, reliability, knowledge, strength. The men you date are already trying to 'prove' their worth to you, twenty years down the line, if not sooner, that turns to some really negative emotions.

So how do you date your class, when your money is so much more abundant? Well you have to talk to your guy! Tell him you don't want him to focus on money, that you're with him because you respect and value him. If possible, stop living the way you do. Take on a more traditional MC appearance. Just because you can buy more, doesn't mean that's the best way to go about things if you want to date MC men.

The other option is to look for men that have also worked their way up, or older men that started out with little and then made something of themselves that is on equal footing as yourself financially. Small business owners may be a good place to start.

The first thing you have to do is stop thinking of it as 'dating down' though, because you aren't. You have MC outlooks and values, and you're attracted to MC men, you just happen to have a bigger wallet.

Mini4321 · 2017-06-15T17:22:38+00:00

I married "down" and we are divorced.

Over time he grew resentful of my success in my career. (Eye roll) He liked the lifestyle enough to try for alimony and a payout as he "had grow accustomed to his lifestyle." - Didn't get either. I was never accepted by his family. BTW I live simply and Walmart is great.

Have I seen it work- yes, my parents

If you get married- get a prenup.

Cock_Klepto · 2017-06-15T16:45:37+00:00

I'd be really really choosy. Money can cause a lot of resentment especially if the male has a strong provider mentality. If something is making them 'try extra hard' now, that's not going to go away. It generally gets worse over time and by the time the issue is finally brought fully to light it can be too late to try to repair. Or the injured party might not even want to repair things or sees the issue as insurmountable.

Landry86 · 2017-06-15T20:28:56+00:00

Ambition is so much more important than salary. Sometimes men land a good job and screw it up. I dated one of these. We were young when we met. He made $80,000 at the time (yeah, woo hoo). Gets fired for stupid reasons, ends up broke. He's too lazy to make a LinkedIn account, so it takes him a whole year to find a new $60,000 job. Low and behold gets fired from that one. I end up breaking up with him anyway because he yelled and screamed like a girl all the time. Ran into him at a festival about a month ago and he tells me he has a lead on a lab tech job in Houston.

Yeah I'll take the hard-working guy with the lower salary please.

jeanbroady · 2017-06-16T22:34:38+00:00

I was brought up in an upper middle class home with a working professional father and a stay at home mom. There were five kids in the family and we were by no means spoiled, but there were cultural considerations like manners, proper speech, and adherence to Catholic customs. I married a man from the working class whose father moved from the hills to the city to find a better life.I married a man who didn't attend church as a child but was still raised in the Christian faith. I suppose I could say I married beneath me, but it never really mattered to me. I fell in love with my husband because we valued the same things in life. He rose up to meet me and I fell back on him and we ended up living a solid middle class life right in the middle of our parent's classes We are in our 36th year of marriage. We are happy. We sent three kids to college and the irony is they are now in a class above us. I encourage you to continue to follow your instincts about what you find attractive in the men you date. I think you are on the right path. The true diamond is sometimes in the rough.

RubyWooToo · 2017-06-15T20:16:35+00:00

I don't think it's dating or marrying "down" to be attracted to men who come from poor or working class backgrounds. Though my husband and I are both white collar professionals, we both came from working class families and often have an easier time relating to our local teachers and firefighters than we do to the "posh" people with whom we attended school and now work alongside. The most important trait you should look for in a man (financially speaking) is a strong work ethic, responsible with money, and the skills/drive to succeed.

It goes without saying, but don't date guys who are looking for a free ride or are deeply insecure about your upbringing. On the flip side, don't date guys that you consider "beneath you" because you think they're somehow easier to deal with or more impressed by you than a guy from your economic/social class. No guy wants to be with a woman who looks down her nose at him, even if she finds him desirable.

tempintheeastbay · 2017-06-15T21:09:42+00:00

I'm fascinated by sociology and discussions of the class system in America, so thank you for posting this and instigating this very interesting discussion!

I really empathize with your story. I was raised MC/UMC and as I've gotten older, my family has entered probably the top tenth of a percent wealth-wise. It's been, for me, totally ideal, because I feel like when I was very young and impressionable we lived modestly, but when I was looking for grad schools, homes, etc. as an adult, we had lots of resources.

I have an extreme aversion to men with inherited wealth, however, and pretty much only date men who grew up MC or even lower class. I don't think it's because I feel "less pressure" with them, though that's possible I guess. I think for me it's because my parents went from very, very poor as children to where they are now, so it's a story and personality type I'm very familiar with and attracted to. Looking for guys who remind me of my dad, is what a psychologist will probably tell you!

To echo another commentor's point, there is a big difference between being "high-income" aka rich, and being wealthy. My parents are new money. I'm new money (though due to having picked up cultural quirks and certain cultural fluencies I can pass as old money). I find it difficult to date old money types, even when I technically have a higher net worth or whatever, because our attitudes are so different.

Have you ever read The Great Gatsby? There are lots of great parts of that book that discuss Gatsby's love for Daisy - how it's partly motivated by her individual charms, but partly motivated by what she represents to him. I'm not saying either type of love is lesser or problematic, but for sure many of the men I've dated (as with you, it sounds!) see me as a sign of their triumph, a measure of how far they've managed to climb in life. That can be a bit of a weird dynamic - it's like being a trophy wife, but the 'trophy' part is just a bit more nuanced than just "she's beautiful."

Banincoming · 2017-06-16T00:30:24+00:00

A blue collar tradesman might make 10x as much as a college professor. So dating that professor would be "dating down" for you (if money is all that matters).

dottywine · 2017-06-18T10:28:11+00:00

I know what you're talking about.

I break up with these guys.

I always think we have the same values but something doesn't click. There is something subtle that is fundamentally different in how we want to live our lives.

Like, there is a certain lifestyle they are able to tolerate that I cannot. It's subtle. It's not like "I need to shop 3x/ week, why don't you get that??". It's really really subtle.

And the fact that you get along fine and not "I'm in love" is also a warning sign to me.

My fiancé is "down" based on education but not financially (no degree, makes decent money white collar). I was impressed. But now I know, his parents were actually multi-millionaires before market crashes when he was small. So no, he couldn't afford college or anything but There is a lifestyle he wants or remembers and there is a standard he cannot tolerate going below.

Really subtle but the lifestyle he wants and his standard just seemed to be higher than my other exes.

everydaycardigan · 2017-06-21T21:38:27+00:00

This is how your description of the situation came off to me. Please don't hesitate to clarify if I'm under the wrong impression.

Your first paragraph was your about money, economic class, and social status indicators in elaborated in great detail. You could have just said "My family is well off and I maintain the same standard and good taste as an independent adult." Your description of your consumption habit and lifestyle doesn't communicate simplicity and humility to me. It convinces me that you make choices in order APPEAR that way to others as to convince yourself of your own narrative.

Your second paragraph was also about your money, economic class, and social status indicators, but in reference to how other men feel about it. By the way, it is likely that your boyfriend feels the same way as other men in that he also aspire for the life you have and your cultured/educated self, but he just hides it better, i.e. knew better than to openly make negative comment about less educated and lower class girls.

Your third paragraph is about your concern for your future regarding the status you have and it possibility that your relationship will force you to renegotiate your standard of living. You cut your boyfriend some slack and throw him a few bones owing to his good qualities to make the anxiety and fear easier to deal with, but at the end of the day, you're still fixated on that fact that he is poor.

The fourth paragraph/sentence is your real issue. "Is this enough to be a deal breaker in the future?" You fear that one day you would have to compromise too much of your own standards. And you do have them. Standards.

The fifth paragraph is just backtracking and guilt for even thinking of the possibility of breaking up with someone because he's poor.

In summary this is what I can gather about you based on what you wrote: 1. You care about a certain standard of living and status afforded by a certain level of income, A LOT. You can't remove or push that away even when you try. That's why you're conflicted: you're going against your value. 2. You think about the money before you think about the guy. Even describing your boyfriend, you described him in reference to his current status as well as to your speculation/hope for his future earning potential ("extremely intelligent and ambitious"). You're okay with things for now because you think he'll work hard and make more money later because he seems to have the qualities that would put him in that trajectory. You're worried because there is a risk that he won't make more money later.

Many types of men exist across different economic classes. There are not just nice, hardworking poor ones and mean, lazy rich ones. There are mean, lazy poor ones and nice, hardworking rich ones as well. There's a reason for why you're with the person you're with. It's up to you to figure out that out.

JackGetsIt · 2017-06-22T18:25:14+00:00

What do you mean by less pressure if you don't date up? Later in your post you say you don't date up because men with money are lazy and many are fat. So I'm just wondering if you could unpack your motives a bit more here.

Title	Dating lower
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	17
Comments	62
Date	June 15, 2017 2:35 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/RedPillWomen
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/RedPillWomen/comments/6hfdpo/dating_lower/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/RedPillWomen/dating-lower.72983 https://theredarchive.com/post/72983

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