Why Relationships Can Never Be Equal (Scientific Study)

MattyAnon · 2015-08-13T12:26:08+00:00

The idea that we can have a perfectly equal relationship through verbal discussion

Well I used to believe this. I used to do this with my girlfriends. Unreasonable behaviour from girlfriend -> talk it through -> girl listens and agrees -> nothing changes.

And this was the pattern for 20 years of all the girls I dated... they sure did love to talk things through. But it made no fucking difference whatsoever. Nil, zero, zilch. It was like they could remember the conversation if asked about it later, but couldn't connect it up to the relationship or their behaviour. And an apology? Oh no, a discussion with that expectation leads to worse behaviour to distract me from the original problem.

I don't bother anymore, it's actually counter productive.

99% of "girlfriend problems" come down to lack of relationship motivation, and you fix that through dread game and withdrawing, not through talking about things. Arguing about things with a woman is (as someone memorably said on here recently) like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how clever your moves are or how correctly you play the game, the pigeon just knocks over the pieces and shits on the board.

The only true equaliser in relationships is fucking other women. Every other solution is harder, requires more strength, more resilience, more determination and more so-called manipulation.

NineInchPitchfork · 2015-08-13T14:46:44+00:00

OP : to arrive at a conclusion which explains human behavior based on an animal study requires a crucial step: determination of. extrapolation or translational value. Not only are there key biological differences (brain structure and functioning) but nurture differentials require accomodation also.

Behavioral psychology can be 'tricky' in this aspect as extrapolation values have been shown to be unpredictable on a global basis. For instance, game theory * has been shown to translate poorly between animals and humans. There is little consistency or predictive power, which has lead to the opinion that *game theory relies more heavily on societal than genetic factors.

Evolutionary psychologists need to demonstrate the extrapolation factor for their theories to establish any prospect for credibility. The original study that you are basing your theory from is a type of operant conditioning analysis. This type of conditioning does not account for inherited and cognitive factors for learning so it would be necessarily incomplete.

The bottom-line is that one can theorize from animal studies in the evolutionary psychology realm but it should not be depended on as a proven fact without analysis of extrapolation factors. I have no idea what that value would be for your baseline study and without that knowledge, I would be hesitant to make more than tenative predictions that would require constant re-evaluation as new data emerges. In other words, use this theory with caution and reconsider after each occurrence.

HumanSockPuppet · 2015-08-13T15:29:25+00:00

There is plenty of evidence that males discipline females and maintain order in nature. Here's a documentary showing male Hamadryas baboons disciplining their females (TRIGGER WARNING). Males dominate the troupes, and engage in warfare to steal territory and other females.

I thought for a minute...What social relationships DON'T have a power struggle on some level? Employer/employee. Child/parent. Friendships.

All relationships involve conflict, yes. But it's wrong to approach your relationship with the assumption that it will be a conflict, because your dominance in the relationship should not be questioned.

If you go in to the relationship thinking you'll have to fight for your place, there's the possibility that you'll lose. And your acknowledgment of that possibility will show in your actions.

If you go into the relationship knowing that you're the leader, and expecting compliance, then it's much simpler. Either there will be a relationship on your terms, or there won't be a relationship - period.

That's why the Red Pill teaches you to win fights before you start them. Be the boyfriend that no woman would ever dream of cheating on, and THEN get into a relationship. Get the job skills that everyone desperately needs, and THEN get a job. Get a pre-approved auto loan from your credit union, and THEN go in and buy a car without getting fucked over financing options.

Win the fight first. Then put up your fists.

Leavism · 2015-08-13T15:13:15+00:00

Sometimes I feel like all the bullshit us humans are making up about relationships is to slow down our exponentially increasing population crisis. There's a study by an ethologist about overpopulation and its effect on behavior. Calhoun, the ethologist, coined the term "behavioral sink" to describe aberrant behaviors in overcrowded population density situations. He did a test with rodents and claimed that the bleak effects of overpopulation on rodents were a grim model for the future of human race.

I'm not saying the female rodents became feminazis, but it has some pretty interesting outcomes.

Here's Calhoun's Wiki page.

bustanutmeow · 2015-08-13T10:46:50+00:00

You can post links if you use archive. It would make your post easier to read through.

2015-08-13T12:21:00+00:00

[permanently deleted]

RP_Vergil · 2015-08-13T15:47:02+00:00

Patrice O'neal brought this up before in the Black Philip Show. A bitch angry at you is a sign of passion, since Strong Emotions → Passion, Anger is one of them.

Ever notice No matter how abusive or Mentally Manipulating a man can be, his woman will still go back time and again, willingly be a captive victim?

It's because they want to be a victim.

Red Pill taught me that, after playing Capt'n Save-A-Whore burned my hands well.

TheKorken · 2015-08-13T13:30:43+00:00

if you look at a relationship as a power struggle, you are doing it wrong

I'd love to do this if every emotional-based statement gets auto-ignored and the person who failed this rule more than 3 times is forbidden to argue on.

Crotch_Snorkel · 2015-08-13T15:16:44+00:00

The idea that we can have a perfectly equal relationship through verbal discussion

I've had this only one time with a woman of which was exceptional. She was married however, and technically a plate, but we got really close and the experience was about as close to real unconditional love as I've had. I believe however, because of the unusual circumstances of infidelity, our communication was top notch because we virtually had NOTHING to hide from each other at that point. We were both in it deep, so we were able to drop our egos and have stimulating conversations that would carry over into the relationship. If I had an issue or vice versa we talked it out, and all was well... again I find this to be the exception

What I've found though is in most of these discussions, one side is often times trying to control the other party (the power struggle op speaks of). Sometimes its from the female and sometimes its from the male, but typically one side wants the other side to do something differently... no matter the context.

Party A isn't happy when Party B does X... so Party A controls the narrative by staging a "discussion" which is generally a thinly veiled ultimatum. Party B must stop doing X, or Party A won't love you anymore. This can go both ways for men and women, but women loooove to shit test with ultimatums where men generally live and let live based on logical reasoning. Men I believe are capable of loving unconditionally where as women fall in love with the idea of what they can get from the relationship, so although it goes both ways, I find women are less capable of having a non manipulative "discussion" than men are, based on that they equate love much differently.

So yes, I've seen it work where complete honesty, and good communication can build for an amazing relationship with someone, however in order for that to be the case, your discussion can't be opportunistically driven to control anyone, because essentially control is an illusion. You only control yourself, and those that let you control them... Most people and especially most men think just by having the "sit and talk discussion" they are doing their part, however subconsciously they are usually trying to prove a point and control the other party rather than accepting that the other person exudes AWALT characteristics. This is usually the "we need to have more sex" conversation you get in r/deadbedrooms, however rather than getting to the core of the issue of "why aren't we having more sex" the discussion goes straight to "I deserve sex... you better give me sex or else."... but because you can only control that which lets you control, most women, and most PEOPLE for that matter don't respond well to being told what to do.

TL/DR: good communication in any relationship works best when one party isn't driven by a motive. The only way you can have an equal relationship is if both parties are on the same level when having discussions.

dr_warlock · 2015-08-13T14:38:09+00:00

"In captive lowland gorillas, females learn to present more frequently to more aggressive males whom they otherwise avoid."

A-tten.....shun! A-bout.....Face! Pre-sent...........Ass!

sardinemanR · 2015-08-13T16:18:41+00:00

Problem is nowadays any discipline is considered abuse, and the state will come down hard on a man for it. Even dread game is considered psychological abuse, neglect etc. The state is a party to your relationships now, and it is designed to emasculate you and keep you from your natural male dominance.

The women become unhappy with it but can't actually connect the dots. They're quick to run to the state and the white knights to complain and exert the power they have, but then they either drive away the man giving them tingles or have him jailed etc.

One of the things women absolutely love is rough, dominant sex. I'm always hesitant to do that though because of course any rape kit will show "rape" even though the woman is most fulfilled and happiest from getting that.

Basically when you allow women a voice in running society, since they are so confused and contradictory, it screws everything up. You can't have women with authority over men in any sphere, the same as children can't have a say over parents and employees can't set terms over employers on the business practices of the company.

momomotorboat · 2015-08-13T15:50:51+00:00

The problem most people have, and I've had to learn this the hard way myself, is that we mistakenly believe talking is ALL we have to do to get our point across. If you don't back that talk up with action (execution, reinforcement and punishment) then it's just air.

Thanks to this sub I've learned that what you say MUST BE congruent with what you do. Feel free to tell people where you're coming from. Just make sure what you say is reflected in what you do.

I read on a post that if she isn't afraid you'll walk away then you have no real power. Everything changed when I showed her I wouldn't hesitate to do that. I laid out what I wanted, what I expected from her and what she could expect from me. No haggling, no exceptions. I'm happy to talk and listen, but enter my frame or watch it walk away.

My relationship has benefited greatly because of this. Interestingly enough, she appreciates my kindness more now than ever. What's funny is that my values never changed. My strength did. All the things she ignored when I tried to be fair in the past are now recognized and respected. I think once women see that something in this world won't be shaped their feelz they start to respect it.

NeoreactionSafe · 2015-08-13T15:28:20+00:00

Mimetic Rivalry - Rene Girard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/René_Girard

"Monkey see, monkey do, I can do it better than you."

Human nature can be reduced to the observation that all learning begins as imitation.

When two people are equals to each other they become rivals and seek to gain the more powerful position in a competition.

The ramificatons of this insight are immense and Rene Girard ranks in my mind as the successor to Nietzsche.

Seek out his theories over the internet. His books are still protected, so you would have to buy them (bummer) but there is a lot of secondary stuff floating around. He's still alive, but around 90 years old. A true genius of our time.

.

zarus · 2015-08-14T00:46:10+00:00

In captive lowland gorillas, females learn to present more frequently to more aggressive males whom they otherwise avoid.

This kind of casts doubt on these results. Then again, people are pretty captive to their social contexts.

js27195 · 2015-08-17T21:34:57+00:00

The problem is, male's hands are legally tied as far a punishment goes whereas a female can punish a man severely with little effort and no consequences from the law.... ESPECIALLY if the male and female are in a relationship. How does a guy effectively do this today with say a wife?

TRPThrowRug · 2015-08-13T15:35:32+00:00

Well, also just consider it from an economic standpoint.

If you treat her as an equal, and she doesn't (as Feminist culture balks at any accommodation of men's desires. Or just simply because she's got "Sex" as a bargaining chip. So it's believed she's already at a greater default position), boom you are now the subservient one in the relationship.

It's kind if like a coldwar scenario where USA agrees to get rid if it's Nukes and actually doing it, but Russia says they will but they don't.

RedSovereign · 2015-08-13T13:43:37+00:00

Use archive.is to link to reddit and other blacklisted websites.

luigitheturtle · 2015-08-13T16:36:24+00:00

Here's my question. Can the most intelligent of humans, male and female alike, triumph over these instinctual urges (to any extent)?

A hypotheses of mine is that the more intelligent an animal is the more it can go against the grain of survival of the fittest (hence reducing its primal traits and evoking those which are deemed "intelligent"). Now, one could make the argument that doing just that is SotF, but there has to be some line between quantitative reproduction and the ability to manipulate life.

I digress. I think TRP is a good example of my proposed idea for males. Going against the instinct to fall head over heels for some girl and provide for her indefinitely. "monk mode" is another good one, disregarding the very strong urges for sex to better oneself.

For women, the concept of "feelz>realz" would go out the window. They would start utilizing logic, they would be aware of the moment and the future simultaneously and foreshadow what their behavior could lead to.

I wonder if even the most intelligent humans could sustain this behavior. My assumption is even they would get bored of it. Interesting to wonder what the sexual strategies of the most intelligent organisms in the universe are.

greenpegatlas · 2015-08-13T21:36:10+00:00

When citing ostensibly scientific research please give a citation. Not all of us get the same google search results due to our search history.

scrantonic1ty · 2015-08-14T10:33:08+00:00

I don't see how it's logically possible to have two equal people in any kind of relationship. There are no two identical people on the planet. Even if the power dynamic never comes into play, one of them definitely holds the upper hand, in absolutely every case. It only matters when one chooses to play that hand.

Nicholas_ · 2015-08-13T14:26:05+00:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvMcKbo0vYc

BowlOfCandy · 2015-08-13T15:37:00+00:00

FYI The 70x guilded EMSK post "why the "Red Pill" will kill you inside"

The OP fails to recognize that men's love is different than women's love.

And as long as you keep that power dynamic active, you will never know what love is. Because love means that you feel what your lover feels. If she hurts, you hurt. If you hurt her, you feel all of her pain and all of the shame for knowing that you're the one that caused it. If you really love someone, you'll never want to hurt them. And make no mistake, that's what the Red Pill is: cold, calculated, systematic emotional torture meant to produce a desired response. Methods like keeping your prisoner guessing, changing what you want, keeping them off balance, those are all interrogation techniques meant to break your prisoner down on a mental and emotional level and produce a compliant charge.

To be a good partner, as a male, you must be their lover and their father.

PantsonFire1234 · 2015-08-13T21:23:30+00:00

Great post in my opinion, I don't get why people aren't commenting. After the honeymoon phase a couple enters a power struggle. This struggle eventually decides who has the power in a relationship. Allot of relationships therefor don't get past the honeymoon stage (3 months averagely). My guess is that allot of females shit tests their new partner and he turns out to be beta/oneitis.

After the power struggle the roles have been defined. No relationship is the same so this varies. Women will continue to shit test and seek to control her relationship. When this succeeds the feels go away.

One must be proficient in social and relationship dynamics in order to preserve.

FortunateBum · 2015-08-13T22:09:07+00:00

I think when most people say "communication" what they really mean is you do what I say. That's it. This is true in relationships or when the boss says it.

"We need to talk" means you need to do exactly what I'm going to tell you.

Since people are so awful and manipulative when it comes to words, these talks end up sounding like psychobabble a lot of the time, but if you're attentive, you'll hear it.

"Communication is key" means you doing what I tell you to do is key.

I have found in life the less you say the better. Most people are like cops. They want you to provide information that they can use against you. This goes for girlfriends and the workplace.

For all the young guys, anything you say to a woman about yourself, no matter how sweet or trivial, she will twist it to use against you at some point. Best to Don Draper the whole thing and never talk about yourself ever. Now you know why guys used to be like that. They knew.

chwed2 · 2015-08-14T02:12:11+00:00

You can tell how people just naturally jump to conclusions, "TRP people are trying to convince women that they'll only ever be happy with a bad boy!" Good gosh the lunacy...

Grompher · 2015-08-14T02:53:49+00:00

Defying this is the very reason why relationships fail. No one worries about duty anymore. It is all about equality and a power balance.

I can remember my mother not wanting to cook. For her own children! My older sisters are bastards. Their respective fathers are unknown. My father got suckered. Never marry, or LTR strippers, divorcees, single moms.

Men are providers and leaders.

Women are caretakers and nurturers.

ShitfacedBatman · 2015-08-13T21:52:38+00:00

This should just be common sense and not negotiated. Men are better than women. Done. That's it. No more walls of text and no more, "And I can prove it with this 4 hour long video!"

Title	Why Relationships Can Never Be Equal (Scientific Study)
Author	payoman
Upvotes	204
Comments	98
Date	August 13, 2015 10:41 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3gu30r/why_relationships_can_never_be_equal_scientific/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/why-relationships-can-never-be-equal-scientific.35522 https://theredarchive.com/post/35522

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Mimetic Rivalry - Rene Girard