Do MRA help demonize MRM?

Karmaze · 2023-11-17T03:03:08+00:00

The problem is how much people hold on to the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy. If people let that go, it would be one thing, but people do hold on to it so much, I'll be honest, I actually don't think it matters what MRA's do or say, it really is a much more base issue.

Dashing2025 · 2023-11-17T02:58:40+00:00

Denial of discrimination of women (even historical)

There is no doubt that women have been discriminated against throughout history. The only problem is that it's so often the case that when preaching of women's welfare against discrimination, all forms of sufferings related to men (present or historical) are completely denied existence, and their introduction often begets fierce hostility from feminists.

Support for gender roles being natural

While we ought to construct a society that maximizes the autonomy and freedom of every individual, we cannot turn a blind eye away from biological factors that cause some characteristics to appear unique between men and women.

Neuro-sexism (women are biologically not wired to be leaders etc)

Both women and men are equally capable of being leaders^1, but I think it's laughable how commonly feminists claim that men should "step-down" from their capabilities and potential and "stop being selfish" to allow for more women to advance in their careers. Men don't have a duty to empower women; women are capable of doing that on their own, and to claim that men have a duty towards women is no different than what the conservatives of old used to do when they shamed the men who refused to go to war.

¹ relating to my second point above, there are differences between men and women; for instance, you are more likely to see salesman in the manufacturing field, as that gritty industry appeals to a male audience. On the other hand, and if I'm not mistaken, the most successful HR personnel are women (HR is very high-paying, contrary to what many people perceive) I don't believe that this Female-orientation or Female-leadership of HR is driven by sexism, rather it is women using their natural capabilities to succeed in such a field.

Excessive focus on hating what feminists say instead of advancing our cause

Modern feminism offers more to hurt men than it does to help. Perhaps the feminism of the old centuries was different..

Title_IX_For_All · 2023-11-17T15:46:57+00:00

My suggestion when speaking to the general public is to make advocating principles instead of labels the default rhetorical approach. People bring a lot of baggage and symbolic interpretation to ideological labels.

For example, others will find it much easier to defend "feminism" than "discrimination," "misandry," "anti-male bias," or, say, "violations of due process."

Criticizing feminism's biases is important, but a monomania with defeating feminism will only go so far. Many anti-male people don't even explicitly identify as feminists.

Maffioze · 2023-11-17T08:45:14+00:00

Call me cynical but I think this is a losing game. They will demonize us no matter what they do.

Vilokys · 2023-11-17T02:25:12+00:00

If we want to start on good foundations, we need to start by acknowledging that :

1) We are influenced by three things : Genetics, Environnement and Society

2) All these influences can work with or against each others.

3) A "natural state" isn't the one we should always try to reach.

4) We ourselves can influence environnement and society.

Therefore, you can rebuke most of the stupid arguments from both sides (feminism and MR).

Yes, women and men are biologically different but that doesn't justify discimination.

Yes, women AND men have problems in our society that stem from one or several sources (environnement and/or society). But that doesn't mean you can use a "natural state" to justify discrimination.

Song_of_Pain · 2023-11-17T02:11:22+00:00

Any call to help men is going to be called out as misogynist by feminists, no matter how genuine, unless it can be turned around on men by saying it's a problem that men are collectively guilty of and need to fix.

SvitlanaLeo · 2023-11-17T09:06:12+00:00

Neuro-sexism is definitely awful. That's why I prefer LWMA. By the way, implicit neuro-sexism is common issue in feminist spaces.

Prizvyshche · 2023-11-17T10:53:08+00:00

I totally agree!

EddgeLord666 · 2023-11-17T17:15:23+00:00

Is it really "neurosexist" to say that in general men and women have different psychological traits and leadership traits are more often associated with men? That doesn't mean there aren't outliers and that women who are natural leaders shouldn't be able to lead.

WanabeInflatable · 2023-11-17T09:44:14+00:00

I just realized my post was actually published.

Yesterday I got a message : "Your post was removed by Reddit filters" and it looked like post is deleted.

Anyone knows how does this work?

Johntoreno · 2023-11-18T14:52:53+00:00

, I think we need to win PR battle and improve our image.

Good luck with that, the people that control the media narratives are Feminists. Its like trying to improve the PR of non-whites when KKK are in control of the media.

Denial of discrimination of women (even historical)

I'm skeptical the existence of Patriarchy that systemically oppresses women, that doesn't mean i deny real discrimination of Women wholesale.

Support for gender roles being natural

Cultures are just a reflection of human nature. I disagree with both Social Constructionists and Biological Determinists, the truth lies in the middle. A lot of our biological impulses DO contribute to Gender Norms but there's also a lot of Social Norms that are forced on us via shaming tactics.

We are easliy reduced to a strawman/bogeyman

For what? being angry at misandry? Feminists will call MRAs misogynist no matter how charitable they try to be, case in point:Menslib, despite it being a feminist circlejerk, feminists still call it misogynist. Feminists just distrust ALL male groups.

BellamyBouncing · 2023-11-17T04:18:29+00:00

MRA's certainly aren't a help as people/moments are often judged by their lowest hanging fruit- i.e I hate whenever a lone MRA/ignorant younger individual goes into askfeminists to post a rudimentary question that easily has holes poken in it; but that ultimately goes back to the portion of the left/feminists that control these online spaces through moderation or simply culturally, as well as mainstream institutions, actively stamping out any possibilty of reasonable male advocates being platformed or such a community being fostered (which as we know menslib and similar communities aren't).

What we as male advocates can do is try our best to challenge faulty rhetoric and not let those people be the one's arguing on our behalf on a wider stage.

Also modern feminism is an active road block to our cause so it has to be addressed and criticized.

savethebros · 2023-11-17T13:11:45+00:00

When MRAs spend more time complaining why feminists aren’t discussing a certain men’s issue, rather than discussing the issue themselves, that’s going to attract the anti-feminist misogynist types. Eventually those types end up dominating.

Title	Do MRA help demonize MRM?
Author	WanabeInflatable
Upvotes	52
Comments	25
Date	November 16, 2023 5:17 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/17ws8gl/do_mra_help_demonize_mrm/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/do-mra-help-demonize-mrm.1238644 https://theredarchive.com/post/1238644

Comments