38-year-old woman rapes 14-year-old boy. But apparently it's okay because "she's hot", "women can't molest boys", and "it's just different"

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Otherwise, why not fuck someone their own age?

Why do we buy apples that are pristine in condition rather than lumpy apples with dark spots? Why do we eat lamb instead of 10 year old sheep?

Why do models start their careers out at 14-16 instead of 35? Why is teen the most sought and consumed label in the porn industry? Why is stripping normally reserved for 18-21 year olds as a business, with the majority of customers in a titty bar paying the younger ones over the older ones, until the older ones, out of desperation, start letting men actively grope them in secret to get larger tips to offset their 'lower value'? Why are males in the 20-25 range targeted by cougars when they have flabby, gravity and time aged husbands at home?

We know the answer. We just don't like it because it offends our sensibilities.

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It really goes to the idea of "full-consent" and the idea that a person involved in having sex (of any kind) or being sexual with another person is "reasonably" able to consent with full self-knowledge about what is going on.

A woman in a coma couldn't consent at all, and if a man has sex with her, it would be rape (and vice versa). If a woman were so mentally retarded that she didn't know what sex or consent was, that would also be abuse. The real question I think you are dealing with is how much further past severe mental retardation are 14 year old boys when it comes to sex. For me, that really isn't far away.

Sure, some people could have a maturity way beyond their peers and could handle it, but that is like giving every person their own speed limit depending on how good of a driver they are. We set an average speed limit so that we don't have any questions where a safe legal speed is. Sure, it is arbitrary, but most (if not all) laws are arbitrary.

[–]mwobuddy -4 points-3 points-2 points 9 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Two 14 year olds getting it on would be ok.

How so? Does the risk of harm become non-existent?

For what I know of the claims of 'harm' coming from adult relationships with consenting teens is identical to the proven harm for teen+teen consentig sex, in terms of emotional trauma, e.g. depression, delinquency, suicide ideation, etc.

Since they're identical, I really don't see how we can criminalize one and not the other.

Do note this has absolutely NOTHING to do with nonconsented molestation or rape. We aren't here arguing over non-consenting sexual attacks on adults towards teens as being not more than harmful compared to teen on teen relationships.

If we believe that teens should be protected from sexual activity because of harm, it should protect them from each other as well.

They don't know what they're doing.

they don't understand consequences.

It can have an adverse effect on their emotional health.

They're too young to consent.

All of these argument REMAIN TRUE if their partner is 14 or 40.

An exemption for teens suggests that child molesting is okay between teens, if children they truly be in your eyes, although they are, biologically and psychologically, NOT children.

Most arguments I've seen against adult+teen relationships RELY on this cognitive dissonance of faith based arguments that "teen on teen is natural and not harmful, but teen on adult is, and if you prove that the harm is equal, its illegal so its still more harmful".

Both are appeal to nature and appeal to authority fallacies, because the arguments derive their truthfulness from gauging harm by legality and gauging harm by whether its natural or not, and both are patently false claims.

As such, it should be argued on grounds of proven merit what harm comes and when.

[–]dontpet 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

A friend that works in the field of male sexual abuse survivors talked about the impact of relationships with such a large power imbalance. What I say below relates to consensual relationships of power imbalance.

He said that some guys do walk away not being harmed by the experience. He wouldn't see many of those because they weren't looking for care.

For the men that were harmed he found that they had inappropriate relationships continuing after the initial "abuse". They would try to revisit the same power imbalance, choosing partners that we much older than them.

It was like an imprint had been left on their sexuality. Making passes at much older women that are in authority over them.

Then there is the issue of them not being able to engage with more appropriate partners. Partners they would have likely chosen of the early abuse hadn't happened.

The men themselves struggle a bit to connect their own behaviour with their abuse. They don't understand until later on that their attraction wiring has been screwed with. Most of us don't have to figure that out since we were launched into the sexual world in a more healthy way.

So now they are stuck with an attraction that isn't healthy for them and they know it. I expect that is where some of the anger comes from for some of them.

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

impact of relationships with such a large power imbalance.

So if the first relationship a girl has is with an extremely wealthy teen boyfriend, do they try to revisit that?

I'm just asking because you can have a COMPLETELY power imbalanced relationship around that issue. A highly attractive teen male with lots of money is like catnip to teen girls in high school. He thus gains loads of power imbalance in his favor where he can do anything he wants in a relationship because they think themselves lucky to have him, regardless of his behavior.

Furthermore, when people are growing up, they universally "imprint" from their parents. I find it highly more likely that when a person dates someone much older who is "bad for them", they're dating someone who is FIRST "bad for them" and second "much older", not the other way around.

Children of BPD/HPD mothers, who are male, will choose or "fall in love" with BPD/HPD females, near their own age, older OR younger. Imagine a 25 year old male, who began dating a 15-16 year old BPD, and literally went through hellish depression due to the chaotic, self-serving, emotionally abusive nature of that relationship. No matter what he did, she slept around on him, broke up to fuck other guys before coming back, and nothing he did was ever good enough. At 28 he finally get his balls up and cuts her out of his life, and goes on to date and then marry a 22 year old, only after a long road to recovery.

Now, the 22 year old was weird to in my opinion, and I got a 'vibe' from her I didn't like, but its been many a year and they seem happy.

Meanwhile, that original BPD goes on to abuse other males who are older than her, trick them into marrying her to support her because of her sob story, lies and socially ruins them by making typical BPD "isolating/punishing" claims, etc, etc.

I'd be VERY interested to have a chat with your friend, because I find it at very possible that he's looking through the feminist lens of "power dynamic/oppressor/victim" that is taught rather than the lens of "who are we attracted to as personalities".

I find more and more that Freud was right in regard to people wanting to fuck their parents, because when a father is in the house, girls want to fuck/marry stable, decent guys, if the father is an average caring person. If the father is absent or abusive, they want to fuck/marry abusive guys.

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One thing that's consistent with anyone who says "they're completely different" is that it's always a baseless claim with no explanation.

One thing that's consistent with anyone who says that its child molesting or abuse is that its always baseless claims of "age difference causes harm" or "they don't know what they're doing", etc, and then suggesting that it'd be totally okay between two people of the same age, even though nothing has changed in the mind of the supposed victim.

But in those cases the very same people defending this will say that doesn't count because she was groomed or will regret it--because apparently boys are never groomed and never also regret it

Grooming is a pop culture word that means nothing more than "flirting with someone who starts to become attracted back". Teens "groom" other teens all the time in this manner, and adults "groom" each other as well.

Suppose we take the word for its metaphorical value. "I scratch your back, you scratch mine". Or like apes grooming each other for bugs, etc. Adult interactions meant to spark interest and end in romantic involvement are just as much "grooming", because you're trying to 'scratch their back' with pleasant conversation and behavior, so they return the favor.

That's the basis of quite literally all friendships and romantic partnerships.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/books/renegade-view-on-child-sex-causes-a-storm.html

Although it will not arrive in bookstores until May, it has already been branded an apologia for pedophiles by talk radio hosts and conservative critics across the country, and Tim Pawlenty, the Republican majority leader of the Minnesota House of Representatives, has called for the university to cancel the book.

The book does not, in fact, endorse pedophilia. What Ms. Levine does argue is that the fear of pedophilia is overblown and that the age of consent should be lowered in certain circumstances. Ms. Levine tries to separate what she sees as real risks -- H.I.V. infection, unwanted pregnancies and sexual violence -- from risks she calls exaggerated or even invented. She argues forcefully against abstinence-only education and what she sees as a pervasive tendency to view all manifestations of childhood sexuality as dangerous or disturbing.

All those risks still are a factor if you "allow" two teens who are underage to fuck. They don't disappear.

But in the United States, views like those often lead to angry accusations. In 1998, The Psychological Bulletin, a highly respected journal, put out by the American Psychological Association, published a review of 59 prior studies of college students who said they had been sexually abused in childhood. The authors concluded that the effects of these encounters were ''neither pervasive nor typically intense,'' although they said gender and circumstance were important factors: a mature 15-year-old boy who has an affair with a young woman, for instance, is far less likely to feel damaged than a girl who has been raped by her father. The authors questioned the practice, common in many studies, of lumping all such cases together as ''sexual abuse,'' suggesting that in some cases they could more accurately be called ''adult-child sex'' or ''adult-adolescent sex.''

I am in full support of either direction you want to take this, but if you want to take this in the direction that its too harmful and risking for people under a certain age, we should protect them from each other as well, because those risks and harms do not disappear. If its illegal for one group, it should be illegal for another, otherwise you're giving people free reign to cause harm, simply because they're younger than some arbitrary age line.

If you support criminalization for one class of people, you must support it for other classes of people to be fair and just.

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Saying there are differences is such a vague statement. To what extent are they different and in what way, that would lead to the conclusion people make that young boys having sex with women can't be harmed whereas young girls having sex with men are always harmed?

For one thing, there are some differences (female sexual maturity, lack of male reproductive rights) that could indicate that if anything the differences make it more difficult for boys in this situation. But even if there were general differences that said otherwise, that doesn't make women doing this to boys a good thing, the way it's treated

That's exactly like saying "males are generally physically stronger than females, therefore women's violence to men is harmless and funny but men's violence to women is dangerous and evil"

All unwarranted violence is wrong and often dangerous, even if males are generally physically stronger. The same applies to adults having sex with children, even if there are some general differences in sexuality

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A male's peak sex drive peaks at 14, while women at ~45 this is backed up by peer reviewed studies.

You're falsely equating sexual horny level peak with 'maturity'. Maturity is the state of something becoming unchanging.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/10529134/Girls-really-do-mature-quicker-than-boys-scientists-find.html

http://phys.org/news/2010-12-brain-fully-mature-30s-40s.html

We used to think brains were mature at 18. Then we used to think they were mature at 24-25. Now we think they're mature at 35 or 45.

It keeps on getting extended. And people are against anyone under 25 smoking pot or drinking alcohol because "the brain isn't finished maturing yet".

Because they're basing their argument on old scientific findings that have been superseded. Joe Rogan made that argument for cannabis. He apparently doesn't know the brain isn't finished by 25.

Maturity means the state of not changing, but brains are in constant change, as are bodies. Why does a 20 year old angelina jolie not look like a 30 year old version, or a 40 year old version not look like a 30 year old?

Because maturity is a subjective and OPINION based concept, which is decided by the culture. You were 'mature' at 13 in cultures past (see: Bat Mitzvah for example).

maturity is an illusion because the concept is that you're either immature or mature, one state or the other, but body growth is a continuum, as is brain growth, as is emotional growth.

Granted, we grow fastest in certain years and slow down tremendously later, but we still grow.

Aw, the little piss baby is mad now.

The laws are doing damage to young sexual beings by cock blocking them, and some studies even suggest it can cause a ton of problems, including creating potential rapists. I had consent at 14 that's why I got laid by girls my age then.

Please give us these studies.

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I have a 14 year old son. He's still a baby who likes to play with model cars. If some old cunt put her hands on my son, I would need to be put in jail to keep me from killing her.

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I agree. We need to change the name of statutory rape . Removing the word rape from this act. The penalty does not often equate to the harm done. Consensual sex is not a bad thing. Hell it is pleasurable and fun for men and women. Even teen men and women. Sex crimes are so harsh because they largely only effect men. Feminists have pushed to make more and more sex into crimes and pushed for harsher sentencing adversely affecting the lives of more and more men. The fact that women receive lesser or no punishment is what we should be fighting to get for men. Calling for women to be punished as harsh as men only serves to reinforce the sever penalties against men. Sex is not a bad thing. Although we should discourage large age discrepancies involving young teens I believe the penalties are to high. I am not convinced in many cases where the sex is consensual that it should be punished at all.

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[–]mwobuddy 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sex crimes are so harsh because they largely only effect men. Feminists have pushed to make more and more sex into crimes and pushed for harsher sentencing adversely affecting the lives of more and more men. The fact that women receive lesser or no punishment is what we should be fighting to get for men. Calling for women to be punished as harsh as men only serves to reinforce the sever penalties against men. Sex is not a bad thing. Although we should discourage large age discrepancies involving young teens I believe the penalties are to high. I am not convinced in many cases where the sex is consensual that it should be punished at all.

Feminism wanted males punished for ruining their futures, but society was the slut shamer, not the man who wanted to get his rocks off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_States

In the 19th century, parlor house brothels catered to upper class clientele, while bawdy houses catered to the lower class. At concert saloons, men could eat, listen to music, watch a fight, or pay women for sex. Over 200 brothels existed in lower Manhattan. Prostitution was illegal under the vagrancy laws, but was not well-enforced by police and city officials, who were bribed by brothel owners and madams

In 1873, Anthony Comstock created the New York Society for the Suppression of Vice, an institution dedicated to supervising the morality of the public. Comstock successfully influenced the United States Congress to pass the Comstock Law, which made illegal the delivery or transport of "obscene, lewd, or lascivious" material and birth control information. In 1875, Congress passed the Page Act of 1875 that made it illegal to transport women into the nation to be used as prostitutes.

https://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/case-studies/230

raised it to between 13 and 16 years in the second half of the 19th century. In 1875, England raised the age to 13 years; an act of sexual intercourse with a girl younger than 13 was a felony. In the U.S., each state determined its own criminal law and age of consent ranged from 10 to 12 years of age. U.S. laws did not change in the wake of England's shift. Nor did Anglo-American law apply to boys.

At the end of 19th century, moral reformers drew the age of consent into campaigns against prostitution. Revelations of child prostitution were central to those campaigns, a situation that resulted, reformers argued, from men taking advantage of the innocence of girls just over the age of consent. W. T. Stead's series of articles entitled, "The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon," published in the Pall Mall Gazette in 1885, was the most sensational and influential of these exposés.

Revelations of child prostitution were central to those campaigns, a situation that resulted, reformers argued, from men taking advantage of the innocence of girls just over the age of consent

https://books.google.com/books?id=Rng2oOq1Ep8C&pg=PA14&dq=inauthor:mary+inauthor:odem+%22united+states+1885+and+1920%22+%22state+1885+1920%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zpJDVYL9HMqrogTDt4HIAg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=inauthor%3Amary%20inauthor%3Aodem%20%22united%20states%201885%20and%201920%22%20%22state%201885%201920%22&f=false

The low age of consent in the U.S. also stirred the WOmen's Christian Temperance Union... demanding that "the age at which a girl can legally consent to her own ruin be raised to at least eighteen years."... Gardner's second novel... terrible consequences for fourteen year old Ettie Berton... who's moral decline begins when she accepts an invitation... forty year old man.. takes Ettie to a park, gives her wine, later seduces her. Because Ettie is over the age of consent, the man is held guiltless before the law. Whereas he suffers no consequences for his actions, Ettie is fired from her position in the store, rejected by friends and family, and eventually dies a lonely agonizing death.

Prostitution was already illegal, but used as a selling point by feminists to raise age of consent. The age of consent was raised due to Women's Suffragette movements, but it was society and rejection by friends+family for sex outside marriage which caused the pain to involved individuals, but the onus is supposed to be on the man.

http://www.sunypress.edu/pdf/60840.pdf

The laws originally were gender-specific: They punished a male who had sexual intercourse with a female, who was not his wife, under the age of consent; today, they are gender-neutral so as to cover both females and males. When the activity is heterosexual, it is usually the male who is charged; for instance, in cases in which a female becomes pregnant, she is assumed to be the victim. There is also some evidence that prosecutions under the laws have dispropor- tionately targeted homosexual relationships. In many states, the perpetrator may be the same age as the victim and still be charged with a felony; in most of the states mandating that the perpetrator be a certain number of years older then the victim, a same-age perpetrator can still be charged with a misdemeanor

Under early English common law, a male could not be convicted of rape if the female had consented to the activity [at whatever age] (Fuentes 1994: 139; McCollum 1982: 341; Miller 1994: 289)

The laws thus stated, as they still do today, that no crime has been committed if the female is the wife of the perpetrator. Justice Brennan noted in Michael M. v. Superior Court of Sonoma County , the only Supreme Court case having to do with statutory rape law, that “because their chastity was considered particularly precious, those young women were felt to be uniquely in need of the state’s protection” (450 US 464 [1981] at 494–495). Females, in other words, were seen as “special property in need of special protection” (McCollum 1982: 355) and thus “statutory rape was a property crime” (Eidson 1980: 767).

THEIR CHASTITY IS CONSIDERED ESPECIALLY PRECIOUS.

his manifested itself in several myths about the “natural” state of black fe- male sexuality as being the opposite of the “natural” state of white female sexuality. While the latter were “chaste [and] pure” and on a “moral pedestal,” the black female was promiscuous, impure, and lascivious. “This construct of the licentious temptress served to justify white men’s sexual abuse of black women” (Roberts 1997: 11).While black female bodies were commodified, along with their childbearing capacity, their chastity was not.

Women in general, having all been raised out of oppression, are considered unanimously 'pure', while it is males that are now 'promiscuous, impure, lascivious'.

The male legislators did not give in without a fight. “In incidents in sev- eral states, legislators proposed dilatory amendments to mock the proposed re- form, such as proposing that the age of consent be raised to eighty-one years, that all girls be required to wear a chastity belt, or to mandate that all women must consent to sex after the age of eighteen years” (Larson 1997: 41–42). 18 In short, they did not take the protectionist ideals very seriously. As early as the 1890s, many states considered measures to roll back the age of consent to their pre-reform levels although in most cases the women’s groups were able to halt those efforts (Larson 1997: 57–58; Pivar 1973: 144–145).

The men had two basic concerns: that young men in particular would be denied sexual access to young women in an era in which marriage in one’s teens was extremely common, and that men of any age who were expressing their “natural” sexual desires would be punished for engaging in activity with willing and sexually mature young women. Legislators in a few states graded the penal- ties so that underage males would have more lenient sentences; for instance, bills regarding the District of Columbia mandated a 5-year maximum for a male under 18 and a 15-year maximum for a male 18 and older, with no minimum sentences (Larson 1997: 56)

Keywords: willing sexually mature young women.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/books/renegade-view-on-child-sex-causes-a-storm.html

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