This controversial Fox News opinion article entitled "The war on men" is provoking a lot of feminist ire, so let's discuss it.

noconscience · 2012-11-27T00:39:23+00:00

The only point that I saw as credible was when the author was talking about how the media demonizes men.

"You’ll never hear that in the media. All the articles and books (and television programs, for that matter) put women front and center, while men and children sit in the back seat. But after decades of browbeating the American male, men are tired. Tired of being told there’s something fundamentally wrong with them. Tired of being told that if women aren’t happy, it’s men’s fault."

That is true. Everything else is incredibly inconsistent. She flip-flops several times on what feminism has done to men.

DemonstrativelyNotMe · 2012-11-26T17:34:52+00:00

First of all, the reason I created this thread was because this article is being characterized as an MRM article. Since I don't agree with most of the points of the article, I thought it would be productive to see what /r/MensRights thinks of it.

I'd like to start the discussion by opposing most of the points made in the article.

...I’ve spoken with hundreds, if not thousands, of men and women. And in doing so, I’ve accidentally stumbled upon a subculture of men who’ve told me, in no uncertain terms, that they’re never getting married. When I ask them why, the answer is always the same. Women aren’t women anymore.

I find it very hard to believe that a 'subculture' of men has assumed such a simplistic and unrefined position. I realize that the line "Women aren't women anymore" isn't literal, but still, the idea that many men have forsaken the entirety of the other gender in favor of some nostalgic view of the ladyfolk of old is so silly that I can hardly address it.

Ever since the sexual revolution, there has been a profound overhaul in the way men and women interact. Men haven’t changed much – they had no revolution that demanded it...

This idea that men haven't changed sexually or socially seems as obviously wrong as the above point to me. At least it my experiences, the pressure for masculinity for modern men is lower than that of previous generations. I don't think that should be overlooked, as I think the implications are quite broad.

In a nutshell, women are angry. They’re also defensive, though often unknowingly. That’s because they’ve been raised to think of men as the enemy.

I think the author was really describing feminists here more than women in general, but I honestly disagree with this characterization of feminists regardless. I don't think that feminists, and especially not all women, blame men for their problems. They blame man. To explain, I think that most feminists think that our entire gender, across all time, is to blame for their 'oppression'. Most feminists would not take the position that individual men are responsible for their problems. Also, I see the rise of terms like 'kyriarchy' (at least when not used as a direct euphemism for patriarchy) illustrate a motion towards my interpretation in the feminist movement.

It is precisely this dynamic – women good/men bad – that has destroyed the relationship between the sexes. Yet somehow, men are still to blame when love goes awry. Heck, men have been to blame since feminists first took to the streets in the 1970s.But what if the dearth of good men, and ongoing battle of the sexes, is – hold on to your seats – women’s fault?

If you take the author's beliefs as a given, I can see where this conclusion comes from, but I disagree with those beliefs, so I obviously disagree with the conclusion.

It’s all so unfortunate – for women, not men. Feminism serves men very well: they can have sex at hello and even live with their girlfriends with no responsibilities whatsoever.It’s the women who lose. Not only are they saddled with the consequences of sex, by dismissing male nature they’re forever seeking a balanced life. The fact is, women need men’s linear career goals – they need men to pick up the slack at the office – in order to live the balanced life they seek.

This seemed to come out of nowhere in the article, so I'm not really sure what to say about it. I guess I'll just leave it at that I disagree.

howcanistop · 2012-11-26T22:41:06+00:00

This article is misogynist and misandrist...and internally inconsistent.

For instance:

Men want to protect and support women, its part of their programming

Men want to love women, not compete with them. They want to provide for and protect their families – it’s in their DNA. But modern women won’t let them.

But a line later...men just want easy sex..

Feminism serves men very well: they can have sex at hello and even live with their girlfriends with no responsibilities whatsoever.

So, there you have it boys - you have a genetic urge to protect and provide for women, but you also want to responsibilities and free sex.

Typical social con shit, can't even get their story straight.

MrStonedOne · 2012-11-26T17:54:40+00:00

This is Traditional Conservative wrapped in a pretty wrapper:

"Traditional relations worked and now relations don't, so lets go back to before feminism."

Only issue is mra's(Mens Rights Activist) and mgtow's(men going their own way, a anti-marrage/dating movement) would still be unhappy. we don't want women to get a free pass on all that dangerous working men were expected to do in trad-con days, (and still are some what.). We want women to work. We also want the exception that they work to be equal to that of men. (When's the last time you heard dead beat mother being uttered, exactly)

What we don't like is the fact that women have a choice of what rule to take on (earner or housekeeper) but men don't. What we don't like is how It's became acceptable to generalize men when the reverse would be unacceptable. What we don't like is that our society does not hold women to the same standards of behaviour it holds men to. And biggest of all, we don't like that our legal system and society at large enables women to abuse men thru false accusations of dv, rape, child abuse. Its not rather or not it will happen, its the fact that it can, and the system enables it, that scares us away from women and dating.

This article is about mgtow's, but it gets the solution and reasoning wrong.

Edit: Hello Vice readers: come and enjoy a cup of coffee while we give you a new view on gender. Might i recommend Karen's excellent video, Feminism and the disposable male (Her videos are shown in 4 university and 2 highschools in north america that she knows of.)

2012-11-27T01:10:15+00:00

I'm a scholar and I've recently been around the US and the UK to pursue some studies. I had no idea feminists were insane until I met them in person. I proceeded to ignore their rants on rape and pay gaps and bla bla.

But in my recent travels I was fortunate enough to meet Venker in person and I actually really liked her. We have the same thoughts on marriage even though we don't work in the same field - I'm researching marriage and mononuclear families as an "institutionalized ritual".

HumanMob · 2012-11-26T20:57:44+00:00

A lot of great points were made but didn't have sufficient evidence to back it up. For example, yes men don't want to get married as much as they used to, but why? Marriage laws, child custody laws, rape laws, and especially divorce laws should have been cited as reasons for this percentage drop.

AnnArchist · 2012-11-27T01:02:56+00:00

How are women saddled with "the consequences of sex"???

zyk0s · 2012-11-26T22:40:41+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2012-11-27T05:06:18+00:00

It's Fox News. Almost as a rule I don't pay attention to them. I used to, but they consistently have such a heavy conservative bias, often twisting things in any way they want with no regard for truth, that I just don't pay attention to anything they put out anymore.

To be honest, I believe this article is just Fox's response to the War on Women. They try to downplay when women want contraception and the choice of an abortion, and call any person a communist or a slut who disagree with them. Fox, in its twisted way, is just trying to take the MRA's message, and change it to go more in line with their views on a mysoginist "Women keep their mouths shut" opinion.

carchamp1 · 2012-11-27T05:16:25+00:00

This is possibly the dumbest article I've ever read under the banner of "men's rights". This has nothing to do with men's rights. It's just "social conservatives" yearning for the good old days. You know, the Stone Age. This article reminds me of Fred working down in the quarry, while Wilma is home keeping house.

The "traditionalists" at Fox News and here on r/mr are welcome to go find a place of your own and live. Actually, there's a group living in the Middle East and Asia called the Taliban who you would get along with very well. There are plenty of caves over there to keep you safe.

OuiCrudites · 2012-11-26T18:07:05+00:00

It is a solid article and makes some good points. The problem is, it neglects the laws which discourage men from getting married.

That annoys me because this author's last book had a whole chapter on laws that discriminate against men in family and DV laws. So she is well aware of the reality, she just doesn't want to mention it.

And this is not a men's rights article. It is a traditionalist article.

buster2209 · 2012-11-27T00:51:45+00:00

Let them go out and buy more cat food. There are entire generations of men who have taken such a beating at the hands of the misandric laws that they just don't give a shit about what women say or want. You can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber

UtilitarianByNature · 2012-11-26T22:46:09+00:00

Goodness, there are a lot of finger wagging, concern trolls out today... this is like the 3rd or 4th post.

osmondheart · 2012-11-27T00:04:41+00:00

This is exactly why we cannot define groups by media definition. Traditionalists and extremists have warped the identity of the MRM and Feminism to put their beliefs into generic pools as defined by the person who writes the article, and make them seem more biased than they are. They appeal to angry, bitter souls who simply hate the other gender but don't want to say it aloud.

This article is an example of how Men's rights and Feminsm gets dragged around in the dirt. and in turn, it only fuels the fire for the opposing groups because the people that say these things are powerful and their words are respected.

Another thing they forget to mention is the different MRA groups that have much different beliefs than others. In all honesty, we can't define a MRA, Feminst, LGBT, Racial rights, or any other group by anything. The people in the group have to define themselves and we simply have to accept that.

That is bigoted crap that has nothing to do with the Men's rights movement.

klaphatte · 2012-11-27T08:52:51+00:00

It's Fox News and a large part of the US subscribers to this subreddit have been indoctrinated with Fox News and always voting Republican, no matter what, so I think you'll find a lot of support for it here.

Personally? It's Fox News. Why give them any attention?

2012-11-27T14:21:31+00:00

Fox News aside (they're really not doing us any favors, as they're one of the most laughable "news" sources on the planet), it's good that a major news group actually published something like this (although I can't agree with all of it). Baby steps.

AnnArchist · 2012-11-28T06:36:15+00:00

my comment from the other discussion

Believe it or not, modern women want to get married. Trouble is, men don’t.

Whats in it for men? Almost nothing.

The so-called dearth of good men (read: marriageable men) has been a hot subject in the media as of late

Read: Meal tickets.

Much of the coverage has been in response to the fact that for the first time in history, women have become the majority of the U.S. workforce. They’re also getting most of the college degrees. The problem?

The problem is the fact that no one thinks this is a problem. This means that its very likely that our public education system is not properly catering to the needs of young boys.

Fortunately, there is good news: women have the power to turn everything around. All they have to do is surrender to their nature – their femininity – and let men surrender to theirs.

ANNNNNDDDD now we know this article was written by some sort of religious / sexist wacko

Funcuz · 2012-11-27T05:37:54+00:00

I agree with most of what the author says and I'll tell you why .

I live in China . I moved here about three years ago . If you think that American (or Canadian , or Australian , or ______) women can hold a candle to any woman not exposed to feminism her whole life , you're in for a shock .

The lack of femininity in our culture is the most pronounced when you're outside looking in . I will NEVER marry a Western woman . I don't want to date one . I don't even want them as friends for the most part . They are the antithesis of femininity .

The very first thing I noticed when I got off the plane was that women here still ENJOY being women . They wear dresses . They put on make-up . They watch their weight .

They still exhibit all the classic hallmarks of femininity from the irrational emotions to the desire to care for somebody . The good and the bad . Most importantly though , they're not trying to compete with you for the masculinity award .

Western women don't even realize they do any of those things . Criticize a Western woman and she'll call you a misogynist . Suggest she may not be suited for a particular job or role and she'll call in some human rights commission . Hell , it doesn't even matter what you say , it's always "how" you said it . It can land you in big trouble .

By contrast , over here men don't speak crudely around women because women don't want to hear it ... the women don't swear at all . It's rare to see one drunk . They don't grind up against every pair of pants in the bar . They dress very sexily but don't have their underwear hanging out for all to see . The men act gentlemanly . So what's the key ? Well , it's really quite simple : Western women complain about how there's "no good men" anymore but fail to realize that they're not doing a damned thing to earn "good men" . They absolutely repulse men with their behavior in the West .

Yeah , it's a sweeping generalization about everybody in both cultures . Yes , it's hardly a gender utopia for either men or women . No , not all Chinese women are perfect . But I'll tell you something : Take a plane trip to China and THEN tell me how wrong I am .
The truth is that you'll never want to leave .

Title	This controversial Fox News opinion article entitled "The war on men" is provoking a lot of feminist ire, so let's discuss it.
Author	DemonstrativelyNotMe
Upvotes	56
Comments	41
Date	November 26, 2012 5:12 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/13tisj/this_controversial_fox_news_opinion_article/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/this-controversial-fox-news-opinion-article.1008275 https://theredarchive.com/post/1008275

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