A letter to /r/MensRights, from a woman

ghebert001 · 2012-10-29T01:33:31+00:00

as men, you all don't know what it is like to be a woman.

We don't claim to, but you don't know what it's like to be a man either. Women are not oppressed anywhere but in 3rd world countries. Western women have it so good you women don't even realize it. Of course anything is good compared to 3rd world countries but that's besides the point. Men and women have issues...it's not a contest on who has it worse so that if women have it worse then men have to stop whining and complaining about prison rape, being victims of domestic violence at the hands of our wives or girlfriends and a justice system that's harsher on men...so please stop it with the whole "Boo Hoo women are weaker and because we were oppressed before I was born you have to make up for it".

Women are treated as infantile

You can thank feminism for that. There is no group more misogynistic than feminism...they think that women are too inferior to get high-value jobs on their own so they lobby for gender quotas, they view women as too weak and frail so everything from "Stop Violence Against Women" to "Only Men Can Stop Rape" campaigns are outright saying that women are 1) too weak, inferior, etc. to possibly be able to be violent against a man and is in constant need of protection and 2) is too incompetent to have any concept of 'action vs consequence' therefore there is nothing a woman can ever do (not even make different choices) to avoid rape.

The whole pay gap thing...I'm surprised anyone still believes that it's due to discrimination. Women tend to take more of the part time jobs, jobs with flexibility, jobs that allow more time for taking care of a family, less dangerous jobs. If you and I both apply for the same job, both have the same education and qualifications and neither of us negotiate for a higher pay and the starting wage is $15/hour...guess what? We'll both be making $15/hour but if one of us works more overtime than the other, then one of us is going to be making more money.

To come back to one of your starting points...that we don't know what it's like to be a woman...do you know what it's like to be expected to work harder, provide more, sacrifice your life and for your gender itself to be determined not only by if you do all those things, but how well? Or to gamble on marriage and hope that the other person doesn't divorce and take your money, then take your kids and never let you see them again, to know that most of society believes it's impossible for you to be raped or sexually assaulted by a woman and if it happens you should consider yourself lucky...even if you're just 12 years old.

Before you ask someone to walk in your shoes, think about walking in their shoes as well.

zinklesmesh · 2012-10-29T01:06:41+00:00

".70 cents on the dollar in the same job?"

Stopped reading when I got to that. You know that's completely misleading. The figure is 77 cents, not 70, and it's entirely due to choices made by women in their career paths, not because employers arbitrarily discriminate and pay women less for the same work. If that were the case, why wouldn't employers just only hire women, since they're so much cheaper?

truthjusticeca · 2012-10-29T01:11:30+00:00

I don't like the word oppression because women have never been slaves but rather have been protected from the harshest of extremes, by men. For blacks, even female slaves were treated better than male slaves.

You don't understand what it's like to be a man and be "responsible" for women's provision and safety.

Who's oppressing who

"Men's strength is their weakness and women's weakness is their strength"

IPGDVFT · 2012-10-29T01:37:04+00:00

You've never seen the world from a female perspective, so let me comment as an expert on your male perspective.

yopp343 · 2012-10-29T01:25:33+00:00

I'm always happy to see fellow rational people try to have a civilized debate with people they disagree with.

Women are inherently physically weaker and have been oppressed in most societies, either in the past or currently. These are things we can agree on(hopefully).

I can think of some example against the "oppressed" part but sure, let's say on the aggregate women have been oppressed historically.

Never seeing this world from a female perspective, you all think women in today's culture to already be equal and that men are now being attacked. But sexism, in a more hidden and devious form still exists. Women are treated as infantile, but at the same time sexualized.

I think men are more likely to have at least seen things from a female perspective than vice-versa. Wouldn't you agree there are a LOT of men who are sympathetic to womens causes/feminism? At last online I see a ton of men arguing against sexual harassment and how bad womens must feel. I've never seen a online article/blog post where a woman who tries to imagine what it's like for a man unless it's some one dimensional rant against male privilege.

But if you embrace your sexuality you're "asking for it." If you don't address your sexuality you're "probably a fat dyke."

I disagree completley. Women who "embrace their sexuality" (I'm assuming this means more sexual/promiscious) are slut shamed. I agree with that part. But women who "don't address their sexuality (I'm assuming this means women who don't have casual sex as often or talk about it) are NOT considered fat dykes. They're considered more pure and more highly thought of by society.

Also have you considered the flip side? Men who have lots of sex are praised, men who don't have lots of casual sex are mocked as "virgins", "losers who live with their parents", in other words "virgin shaming". It's the flip side of the same coin. But women seem to be completley blind to this dynamic and just think it's only women who get insulted this way.

But men and women are not yet equal(.70 cents on the dollar in the same job?).

There's a lot of literature that's says this is wage gap is not due to discrimination but choices women make/the differences between men and women. For example men are singleminded about career advancement/making money while women put a higher value on starting a family and raising children. Thus there are fewer female CEO's because any CEO candidate who is not 100% all in on their job is going to be weeded out. (obviously someone like Marisa Mayer is an exception)

Personally I am open minded enough that I would change my mind about the gender wage gap if feminists presented evidence and a rebuttal to this argument. But you cannot pretend it doesn't exist.

Men have never experienced gender inequality the way women have.

I agree but it seems feminists don't just want equality they want to almost retroactively even the score. Intentionally or unintentionally they use past injustices as justification for screwing men. In a almost "Sins of the Father" sort of way. I didn't oppress anyone, why should I pay because men (who I'm not even directly related to or benefited from) in the past did?

Imagine hearing a white person say, "Blacks are equal now, I wish they would stop complaining."

That's usually not how it goes. If Blacks or Women are being discriminated, and they can back this up with evidence I will support them. But if they complain about something that is not due to discrimination: For example if women (or blacks) test lower on Math scores (hypothetically) and advocacy groups blame this not on women or black students but make up this bizarre theory that the math test is biased because it was designed to favor white men or that centuries of discrimination has made women and black people bad at math I don't accept that.

It's just not as simple as you make it seem.

RealQuickPoint · 2012-10-29T02:02:55+00:00

I am not trying in any way to pretend I know about men's issues. I don't, I am not a man. This post was about giving insight on a female perspective.

Okay. Tell me honestly. What did you want to come of this topic? Why did you write this letter? Did you want to discuss women's issues with us, as though we didn't believe they existed? Did you want to learn more about men's issues? Did you want to just tell us that our views are silly, because realistically men aren't discriminated against in society? What? I don't honestly get why you feel that your insight was needed.

What does women having issues have ANYTHING at all to do with men having issues? How does the fact that you, too, face issues impact the issues we face in our lives? Seriously. I do not understand. As a black man, if a white man tells me that it sucks when he's excluded from racial discourse I'm not going to say to him "Well sorry but slavery man" nor am I going to lecture him on how black people are regularly excluded from several other forms of discourse. So why did you do that to us?

RealQuickPoint · 2012-10-29T01:08:25+00:00

I hope you take my words to heart and respond respectfully as I have been respectful to you.

To be frank, you haven't been respectful at all. You have more-or-less come in here and told us "You don't know what you're talking about. Let me explain how it really is for you."

Your entire post is completely disrespectful in every way imaginable hidden under the veil of politeness. If people choose to treat you with more respect than you've shown us, I would honestly be surprised.

ErasmusMRA · 2012-10-29T01:26:34+00:00

We've heard these "arguments" from feminists hundreds of times.

"Oh I'm a 'nice' feminist, I'm not like the 'other' feminists."
"You're not a woman so you don't know what it's like to be a woman therefore what you say is invalid."
"Women have always been oppressed!"
"Women are objectified!"
"Women make 70 cents for every dollar men make!"
"Women have it worse!"

Your 2 day old account sounds like a feminist troll. If you are interested in learning about men's rights, use the links on the sidebar.

FponkDamn · 2012-10-29T01:15:00+00:00

Thanks for the input! A few things - one, and this is the most obvious, the wage gap as it is expressed in your letter is a myth. Women do not make seventy cents on the dollar for the same job. I've posted a few sources on that, feel free to look those (or the myriad of others!) up - in short, I don't want to debate that here, but what you stated is provably wrong.

Which of course leads to a larger point - I personally, view equality as one thing only - equal treatment under the law. If more women become nurses and more men become coal miners, if more men die on the job and more women get lower-ranked positions, none of that matters. What matters is that they are treated equally, as individuals, by the institutions of our government.

Freedom of association means that people will always have different results based on their choices. An individual woman might make less money than an individual man because she chose the job that had more vacation time, better benefits, or less overtime. The man might make more money - but in contrast, he has less free time, fewer benefits, etc. Neither of these is "better" than the other - they both chose what they wanted - but they lead to different results.

However! When a LAW - something unavoidable - treats genders, races, or other categories of people differently, that is unacceptable, no matter which gender, race, or creed gets the benefit. If women are automatically favored in child custody cases, that's wrong. If white people had to pay a lower tax rate than black people, that'd be horrible. When Jim Crow laws reigned, it wasn't just LEGAL to discriminate, it was MANDATORY. That's the problem.

When women didn't have the right to vote - that was sexism. That was institutional, and was true gender inequality. When women don't make the same amount of money as men because of different choices they make - that's not sexism. That's a natural product of freedom of choice.

When black people weren't legally allowed to enter businesses catering to white people - that was racism. That was institutional, and was true racial inequality. When the vast majority of professional basketball players are black because they choose to devote more time and energy honing their natural talent - that's not racism. That's a natural product of the freedom of choice.

So I welcome anyone who wants to fight for true equality under the law, and I yearn for the day when the law doesn't even recognize the concept of gender or race, only "individuals." But equality does not mean we all get the same thing. It means we all have the same freedom to choose.

olivia95 · 2012-10-29T01:20:33+00:00

You've hit on one of my sore points... in regards to situational knowledge.

"But I feel that, as men, you all don't know what it is like to be a woman."

I have not seen Feminism shy away from pontificating on what it's like to be a man. I am surrounded by sexism aimed at males, I see it every day in the media and hear it from many people I interact with... It reminds me of the crimethinc poster that was posted in here recently, which you may already be aware of, with the 'for every girl who... there is a boy who...' and ends with the line 'for every girl that takes a step toward her liberation, there is a boy who finds the way to freedom easier' - this line caused some debate when it was posted in here, but what I take from it is every time a gender issue is taken seriously, all gender issues gain some credibility... the idea that men don't experience gender inequality the way women do should not, in my mind, mean that the idea of men's rights should be shat on the way they are.

On the subject of "you all think women in today's culture to already be equal and that men are now being attacked." - My personal view is that both genders have always been attacked, but themselves and each other... what I see is MR types being attacked in the same way that early feminists were - It's not surprising, but it's pretty sad.

As for being respectful, a great way to do this is not to use statements like 'you all' to imply some universal truth when there just isn't one... everyone that reads this sub is an individual, with their own views that in some ways will gel with other readers of this sub and in other ways not, in much the same way you'll find in feminist discussions.

Phuzzums · 2012-10-29T01:39:18+00:00

But I feel that, as men, you all don't know what it is like to be a woman. Women are inherently physically weaker and have been oppressed in most societies, either in the past or currently.

I agree, as a man I have no idea what it's like to be a woman. But just the same, as a woman you have no idea what it's like being a man. That is probably one of the most frustrating thing I see from gender feminists, they claim that men have no idea what it's like to be women and them immediately turn around and tell the men how easy their life is, how few problems they have, how much privilege they have. Even when it comes to the oppression of the past they take up the idea that women were the only ones that couldn't make choices in their life. Yes, women were often strongly persuaded or forced into marriage, child rearing and domestic duties, I don't deny that. I find it disingenuous to make the claim as though women were the only ones that were oppressed though, and worse that it was men as a class doing the oppressing. While women had those responsibilities men had their own responsibilities. The responsibility to work endless hours in back-breaking labor with little to no safety measure, the responsibility to pick up a gun and protect his country and family from threats, the responsibility to feed his children and wife before getting to eat himself.

Women are treated as infantile, but at the same time sexualized. But if you embrace your sexuality you're "asking for it." If you don't address your sexuality you're "probably a fat dyke."

And men are treat as villains, savages and predators. They are held accountable for their actions to a degree few women experience. While you go into the mechanics and the direct all their questions and answers to your husband/boyfriend, men go into their childrens' school and get treated like they are trying to kidnap and molest a child. Same goes for sexuality, we both have problems. While a woman who is promiscuous may be seen negatively, a man who does not express his sexuality is seen just as negatively.

But men and women are not yet equal(.70 cents on the dollar in the same job?).

I'm going to leave that to others, but just say that the figure is based on a snapshot of the entire system without accounting for a lot of determining factors mostly to do with choices that each individual has.

Men have never experienced gender inequality the way women have

As I said above, I have never experience inequality the way a woman has, but I don't deny it. Just the same, women have never experienced inequality the way a man has, but feminism likes to push the idea that if you deny it enough that it doesn't exist, or worse they take whatever inequalities men may face, minimize those problems so anyone complaining about them is just a whiner, and then blames those problems on men themselves via patriarchy theory. It is a disgusting self-affirming cycle and equality will never be achieved if it continues. If feminism cared about equality as much as it cares about women's rights specifically I doubt this board would exist, but the lack of discussion and acceptance to men's issues and villification of men in general has made this movement necessary. I think you might be surprised to know that 57% of people in a poll done on /MR described themselves as egalitarian or for men's and women's rights while 33% identified as MRAs. We are not looking to silences womens' voices, we are looking to have our voices heard and thus far feminism is not willing to listen.

hardwarequestions · 2012-10-29T01:15:55+00:00

HAHAHAHAHA.

HAHAHA.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

HA.

2012-10-29T01:35:58+00:00

I also think it's safe to assume that you don't know what it's like to be a man. Let's just establish the fact that we're both flying blind here and, for that reason, it's difficult (but not impossible) to understand one another. It's all about trying to look at things as objectively as possible, to what ever extent we can.

"Women are inherently physically weaker and have been oppressed in most societies, either in the past or currently. These are things we can agree on(hopefully). As men, your gender has always been dominant and physically stronger. These things influence popular culture and social mores."

Innate physical differences, yes I'm sure we can agree on; not worth delving into. But, are you saying that women have no influence on pop culture or social mores, or just less than men? I would disagree with either of those assertions, if that was your point.

"Never seeing this world from a female perspective, you all think women in today's culture to already be equal and that men are now being attacked."

No need for generalizations; I personally feel that men and women are not equal, but I use a scale different from the most common one, which is career and employment, and largely useless as an indication of progress. Men have more clout in some areas of society, women in others. Men are also portrayed poorly in media especially, most often as brainless savages or sex fiends. Make no mistake, we, as a society, have incredibly negative views of BOTH sexes and the male/female dynamic. Look at Twilight; a weak and helpless female character saved by the male hero, and written by a woman. '

"Women are treated as infantile, but at the same time sexualized. But if you embrace your sexuality you're 'asking for it.' If you don't address your sexuality you're 'probably a fat dyke.'

This is what I take the most issue with, and I think a reason why there shouldn't even be a "war of the sexes." Society does not foster healthy values about sexual expression or gender PERIOD. Sexually, men are defined as the pleasure givers and need to perform or else they're not men. Who most perpetuates that sterotype? Men do! Women, on the other hand, as you have said, can't sleep with who they want to sleep with because they're either a "slut" or a "tease." I've heard plenty of women toss those connotations around freely and it's obvious to everyone that men participate in that as well. But women can be downright cruel to one another to the point where it's political, and the fashion industry, makeup industry, body products, etc etc etc are all focused around making women super-conscious of their physical appearance. Women are just a responsible as men for perpetuating this nonsense, if not more so.

Let me ask you this, because I've asked women before and the answer is more often than not the same: when you put on makeup, do your hair, and dress up, are you doing it more for men or for your fellow women? Most women I've asked say the latter. Because they're EXPECTED to by other WOMEN.

My point is, you tell me something that either sex goes through or has to deal with, and I can point you to something the same sex does that perpetuates it. A lot of the culprits (men and women alike) can be found in media and advertising.

"Men have never experienced gender inequality the way women have."

For the most part, I think you're right. Our gender "roles" are slow to catch up with modernity. For instance, it used to be critical, when humans lived to forty or fifty years of age, to settle down and have children as soon as possible, which was generally as soon as a woman could bear a child. Forgive me negating to mention additional historical complexities, as this is an immensely involved topic. But the point is, the idea of the nuclear family grew out of that necessity. Women became constrained to that role, but grew out of the role of purely homemakers as technology (washers, refrigeration, appliances) gave them more time, and they began to seek the independence history had denied them. Our roles are still adapting to this idea, but things have certainly gotten better (generally) since antiquity, wouldn't you agree?

Neither men nor women have any idea what it's like to walk in the other's shoes. The point is, people are stupid and can be downright shitty to others and BOTH sexes are responsible for perpetuating these ludicrous ideas of sex and gender. Our society is a product of history, yes, but if we cut the bullshit and make "tomorrow's history today" we can chuck this nonsense in the trash where it belongs.

Thanks for your letter.

kempff · 2012-10-29T01:59:38+00:00

But I feel that, as men, you all don't know what it is like to be a woman.

Ignoring for the moment that you present this point of view as a mere emotion, I reply that you don't know what it is like to be a man. You have never known. And you will never, ever know.

Women are inherently physically weaker and have been oppressed in most societies, either in the past or currently. These are things we can agree on(hopefully). As men, your gender has always been dominant and physically stronger. These things influence popular culture and social mores.

Do you seriously think universal gender strife boils down to differential physical strength?

If that were the case, then why aren't women leveling the playing field by working out and taking steroids and male hormones? Many women today are already taking hormones so as to avoid getting pregnant, in order to compete with men in the workplace. Why not take it up a notch and close that 23¢ gap?
Or again, granting it were true, isn't the other solution to weaken men?
Or is it more expedient that the perceived inequity be attributed to a natural fact, so as to absolve the losing side of any responsibility and make it men's problem? Because that's not a solution, it's a strategy.

Men have never experienced gender inequality the way women have. Imagine hearing a white person say, "Blacks are equal now, I wish they would stop complaining." You know that realistically in society many black people are not equal and are not treated equally.

Show me two equal people.

All day long we are told to celebrate diversity, to tolerate differences, to act affirmatively - and here you come along telling us the opposite. Now I understand why you introduced your point of view as something you feel, as opposed to something you think. It doesn't make sense.

2012-10-29T03:47:33+00:00

I'm a woman, and have been one for almost twenty years. I feel like I cannot relate to you at all on this. What does oppression in the past have to do with the present? Well, I guess it gives us an idea of what not to do. However, take, for example, college acceptance. Should we have to have at least 40% of students be women just because women weren't allowed to go to college in the 1800s? Why not have standards that everyone has to meet? You know, quality over quantity? Given the fact that schools are directing more of their attention towards girls these days, boys are falling behind, so girls will have an advantage when it comes time to apply to college. That is not equality. When girls are doing better than boys or boys are doing better than girls or gay people are doing better than straight people, it is still inequality.

Just an example. I'd address the issues you brought up, but it would be a massive wall of text.

dumbguyscene28 · 2012-10-29T01:38:10+00:00

I'm upvoting you, because we haven't had a woman come here and tell us how fucked up we are in two or three days!!! W00T!!!!

Who had late Sunday in some dumbass tart tells us how we can't experience their oppression!? Come on down!

/jk, I didn't up vote you, but your concern has been noted.

2012-10-29T01:39:35+00:00

Thanks for your gish gallop of bullshit. Allow me to say a few things that you would have read a hundred times by now if you had bothered to this subreddit for a while before posting.

Women are inherently physically weaker

True, but that doesn't make them disadvantaged in a civilized society. Women have many social and legal advantages over men.

and have been oppressed in most societies

Both men and women have been "oppressed" in their own unique ways. People generally tend to focus and care more on how life has sucked for women though, which leads to the perception that women have had it worse when that isn't really true.

you all think women in today's culture to already be equal

No, if we thought women were equal then we wouldn't be here. We think that men are discriminated against in many ways, and many would argue more than women are.

.70 cents on the dollar in the same job?

Same job and same quality and amount of work? Not really.

jmnzz · 2012-10-29T07:04:43+00:00

But I feel that, as men, you all don't know what it is like to be a woman.

Followed by;

Men have never experienced gender inequality the way women have.

That...is why you fail.

TheAlphaRanger · 2012-10-29T03:05:52+00:00

Both genders have been oppressed in their own different ways throughout human history, even while you think that women have been the only victims.

Even if women actually were the only victims throughout history, the solution to making things equal in our society is not to victimize the other gender or to ignore/deny the other gender's problems.

ibm2431 · 2012-10-29T13:24:54+00:00

It always cracks me up when neofeminists attempt to use their gender as some sort of qualifier for their opinions.

PieMasterBob · 2012-10-29T04:12:20+00:00

.70 cents on the dollar in the same job?

You clearly must not have seen the daily posts disproving this.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-10-29T07:12:56+00:00

This thread again.

rightsbot · 2012-10-29T00:56:20+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

Title	A letter to /r/MensRights, from a woman
Author	olivia95
Upvotes	0
Comments	61
Date	October 29, 2012 12:55 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/128yik/a_letter_to_rmensrights_from_a_woman/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-letter-to-rmensrights-from-a-woman.1010349 https://theredarchive.com/post/1010349

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