Even if I live a life of "privilege", I am not going to feel guilty about it. All that should matter to others is how I treat others.

Knight_of_Malta · 2012-05-20T14:31:40+00:00

For some of us, it's about having our success in life acknowledged. I've worked hard and made smart choices. As a result, I've done well for myself at this point. I get enraged anytime someone tells me it was all handed to me because I am a white man.

I started out shoveling cow shit off of barn floors, tossing hay bails in a 100+ degree mow, and getting kicked in the face by cows while trying to milk them. I've scrubbed dishes, worked on assembly lines, worked in metal shops, and worked with some very hazardous chemicals. The very worst job I've had is cleaning the women's restrooms at a large grocery store (the tampon boxes are the foulest-smelling thing on earth!). I did these types of jobs for a decade before I landed anything remotely comfortable (and that was weekends + nightshift) I'm not even going to address the risky shit I engaged in to pay for college.

Where the fuck was my privilege when all that was going on???

TLDR; I worked my way up from many years of having dirt-nasty shit jobs.

Whisper · 2012-05-20T10:53:24+00:00

No, what matters is how people who look like you treat others. That's how we're going to eliminate stereotyping and prejudice!

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-05-20T11:03:43+00:00

I wouldn't feel guilty for having parents who provided, rather I would feel proud of that.

I wouldn't feel guilty for having a country who provided, rather I would feel proud of that.

If my parent's provided for me and my sibling differently, I would feel ashamed.

If my country provided for me and my compatriot differently I would feel ashamed.

I would only feel guilty if I perpetuated it.

In England I don't feel there is institutional racism, though individually it can occur. There is some individually occurring misogyny, and some individually occurring misandry. Institutionally there is no misogyny but there is a lot of proud misandry.

Discussion of privilege needs to distinguish between institutions and cultures. Culturally white people might be seen as safe nerds, and black people as sexy but dangerous for example, but this is based on the mass of individuals limited experience, and is nothing I feel responsible for, and would only do so if I was in the media or such. Moreover I don't feel guilty for my personal experience and how that informs me. Institutionally it is illegal to discriminate.

ignatiusloyola · 2012-05-20T17:42:43+00:00

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Seacrest_Hulk · 2012-05-20T19:24:13+00:00

The hand-wringing and self hate I see over "privilege" guilt troubles me. It is said that guilt is like a rocking chair--something to do, but it gets you nowhere.

If feminists et al. understood the basic agent/object dichotomy at the root of their perceived equality issues, they'd spend less time bitching/shaming and more time doing. I can't grasp how a movement spanning four generations missed this. By asking anyone else to change their behavior to help improve your situation, you're being an object. You're actually entrenching your helplessness. The irony would be laughable were it not exceeded by the pitiable naivety.

2012-05-20T14:45:22+00:00

Ah, privilege. I think I'm much more interested, as a woman, in female privilege than male privilege, simply because so many people claim that it doesn't exist. So I guess I "checked my privilege" a long time ago (I hate that phrase. It's a horrible comeback in an argument.).

I don't feel guilty about the fact that women win more cases in divorce and family courts, are more likely to be believed in the case of rape, are allowed to cry in public, etc. instead, I'm ashamed of the people who try and use their privilege in ways that will screw someone over (see sentence above for examples). I'd feel guilty if I did that, but i just choose to be proud of the fact that I'm trying to be pretty egalitarian.

Either way, I agree. This privilege iscussion gets real old real fast.

hardwarequestions · 2012-05-20T10:20:38+00:00

Also, I refuse to feel bad for being born with a large penis. All that matters is how I treat people with it.

ignatiusloyola · 2012-05-20T10:34:20+00:00

It would be possible to choose away your male and, if it applies to you, your white privilege: Always wear clothing that hides any recognizable traits with respect to gender and speak through a voice scrambler.

I bet you that you wouldn't notice much of a difference besides being considered weird(if not a lot of people did it).

For argument's sake it would be interesting to see what the "you have privilege" crowd would say to that. How would they tell them that they still have privilege even though nobody would know that they were a white man.

firereaction · 2012-05-20T20:37:23+00:00

Privilege is usually brought up as an excuse for sexism.

rightsbot · 2012-05-20T09:46:20+00:00

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ignatiusloyola · 2012-05-20T16:47:12+00:00

I completely agree, but when privilege is institutionalized (e.g. child custody laws, divorce laws, conscription), we do have an obligation to put an end to it. No male or female should feel bad about rules they benefit from, because they didn't make those rules. But they should fight for an egalitarian treatment of all people, citing any sort of privilege that's built into our laws as inherently distructive to equality.

Scott2508 · 2012-05-20T19:58:44+00:00

im white, hetro and have a full head of hair so by definition i according to feminist ideology am gifted by privelage ..... hmmmmm but im also Bi Polar, Mildly aggoraphobic , had no support or access to help till i was in my 30s as everyone felt i should just " get a grip" , was a victim of physical abuse from my mother and sexual abuse from one of her female friends to which im still called a liar about to this day. So you know what ? the fact that centuries, decades, years ( let them take there pick ) the top 1 percent of rich people were/are men and it upset some of them doesnt bother me in the slightest any more, the reason why ??? . I have lost count of the number of wimmenz who dismiss my past with the statement "well women have had it worse" , when i am expected only to care about women and not about myself or other men then i have no desire to care about womens needs , i wont be dictated to and i have no respect for people who feel that there gender makes them more worthy, afterall isnt that what they claim the patriarchy does ?

fondueguy · 2012-05-20T20:11:48+00:00

What are those male privileges?

Grapeban · 2012-05-20T11:12:52+00:00

Having privilege doesn't mean you're a terrible racist/sexist who must be publically shamed, it means you usually have certain advantages in life that other people don't have. For example, cis people aren't murdered for living as their preferred gender.

It's not about making people feel guitly, it's about recognising that their are challenges in life simply not faced by certain segments of society.

stemgang · 2012-05-21T03:52:37+00:00

No. If you concede their false premise, you are unwittingly surrendering to their whole agenda.

The whole 'privilege' argument is bullshit shaming to put you on the defensive.

You know damn well that in Western society, males are not privileged over females.

ghebert001 · 2012-05-20T14:43:22+00:00

Everybody has privilege in one way or another due to their gender, race, creed, etc.

There's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't expect and demand special treatment because one group has privileges that you don't. Privilege shouldn't determine whether or not you can get or deserve help when you need it.

DJWhamo · 2012-05-20T20:59:36+00:00

I don't know if it would be considered ironic, but I find that anyone who claims I have privilege based on my gender or race to be bigoted. They are generalizing an entire group of people- that is the definition, is it not? Especially if they don't know me, all they can do is presume and accuse me of hypotheticals. Without asking me any questions- since they have already made up their minds, I ask them to prove where I personally have held privelege over others throughout my life in specific situations. If they cannot, I thank them for their time, and proceed to ignore them.

2012-05-21T00:52:20+00:00

People who try to put guilt on you over privilege are wrongheaded. There is a role for recognizance of one's own privilege - namely, to influence how you interact with others. It shouldn't be a matter of guilt at all, and boo-hiss to those who try to make it so.

The example of privilege that I use is height. Back when I was in high school and worked as a cashier, occasionally I was asked to go onto the sales floor and bring forward merchandise that was pushed back on high shelves. Customers who were short weren't able to reach it, so I would go through and pull it forward so they could reach it, too. Being tall (actually, average height) is a privilege that not everybody can enjoy. Being average height doesn't make me a bad person, but it does make it a good business decision to be aware of my privilege and bring forward merchandise that shorter people may not be able to reach. In the same sense that that's a good business decision, it's a good social decision to treat people with respect when sensitive topics come up in conversation, etc.

mikesteane · 2012-05-20T11:24:31+00:00

The book ENVY: A Theory of Social Behaviour by Helmut Schoeck might be of interest to people here: http://www.amazon.com/ENVY-A-Theory-Social-Behaviour/dp/0865970645/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337512590&sr=1-3

TheBrohemian · 2012-05-20T18:19:45+00:00

I don't think men or women have that big of an advantage over each other.

Men get to be considered more attractive with age; women are able to use their bodies as a source of income (I couldn't get away with those low cut tops looking for tips).

Men get paid slightly more; society tells us men are to buy the drinks, dinners, movie tickets, etc.

Title	Even if I live a life of "privilege", I am not going to feel guilty about it. All that should matter to others is how I treat others.
Author	ignatiusloyola
Upvotes	72
Comments	62
Date	May 20, 2012 9:45 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/tvu3f/even_if_i_live_a_life_of_privilege_i_am_not_going/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/even-if-i-live-a-life-of-privilege-i-am-not-going.1021434 https://theredarchive.com/post/1021434

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