MRAs, help me. We're having a discussion in my Contemporary Moral Issues class about pornography and prostitution.

TheRealPariah · 2012-02-23T19:10:16+00:00

So what if it is degrading? So what if it does detract from sex? Just frame the issue as one of agency. Do you think women have the intelligence and ability to make decisions that are good for themselves?

It puts your opposition in a position they will probably not want to be in... at least in public.

2012-02-23T23:37:45+00:00

Women promote the concept of "It's my body. I can do with it what I will." ... Of course except when it comes to limiting men's access to sex. Something about getting to get men to "commit".

The issue of "He's degrading me by patronizing a prostitute." is just not relevant. He's NOT doing it to YOU.

In the end, there is no argument for prohibition of sex for money. If there were, marriage would be prohibited.

Doctor_Loggins · 2012-02-23T18:54:00+00:00

[permanently deleted]

curious67 · 2012-02-23T20:13:53+00:00

don't forget: the female equivalent for male porn is the romance novel. It is degrading and demeaning to men to read these stories about the young attractive rich doctor with the Ferrari who finally gets conquered by the main actress. The guy is much more attractive then we can ever be.

In these romances the hero often takes the woman with force or outright rapes her. And the heroine likes it. Very demeaning literature, totally legal. Because unlike women, men don't bother about what the other sex likes to do in their spare time.

Also (sorry, don't have the link handy), if you look up in amazon.uk you will find a HUGE number of child abuse stories and romances that are very successful with women.

dermanus · 2012-02-23T19:37:52+00:00

How do I best explain that arguments like "It's degrading" or "It detracts from sex" are fucking stupid?

Those are meaningless terms. Ask them what they mean by degrading and they won't be able to explain it.

Then you can take an individualistic approach and assert that those people who go into such industries because they feel that it is advantageous for them to do so. We should therefore respect their autonomy and allow them to better their lives in the way they feel best.

They will argue that it's not really in women's interest to do such things, and that they are victims of this or that nonsense.

Point out two things: First, that they are only interested in the well being of women, although both industries employ both men and women, and that they're argument is based on the assumption that women do not have agency and are not capable of deciding for themselves what is in their best interest. Assert that women are perfectly capable of leading their own lives without some overbearing academics telling them whether or not they are 'degrading' themselves, and that such arguments serve only to further stigmatize these industries and the people involved in them.

However, I'd like to be able to speak from a stronger position than "your logic is wrong...." I'd like to speak from a position of "... and mine is right."

Those two positions are the same. If you believe in freedom, and individual autonomy, values that our society is supposedly based upon then you need ONLY SHOW that there is no adequate reason to forbid something. It is assumed, because of our belief in autonomy, that if there is no reason not to forbid something that it should be allowed. These same concepts extend to respect. Unless you can show an adequate reason NOT to respect people involved in these industries, then you ought to treat them with the same respect and dignity that all human beings deserve.

Therefore, IF their logic is wrong, then those industries should be given the same respect and opportunities than people in all other industries are given.

The key point is the idea that women can take care of themselves, are not children or helpless victims of an invisible patriarchy, and should be allowed to live their lives in whatever way they feel fit. As we already do to the men who are involved in such industries. No one's worried about degrading men, although that happens just as much in pornography.

You might here the argument that only victims of sexual abuse go into pornography. Good. Point out that they are still autonomous individuals who know better than any puffed up academic what decisions are best to make in their lives. The solution to sexual abuse is not banning or further stigmatizing the jobs that these victims work in order to get by, but rather therapy.

Demonspawn · 2012-02-23T18:40:41+00:00

Supporting the porno and prostitution requires believing in agency for women. Since most people don't believe women have agency (including a LARGE number of feminists) they can't support the industries.

On the other hand, I see both fields like ditch-digging for men (albeit a lot better paid). I hope my kids never become ditch-diggers or prostitutes or porno stars. I think they can do better.

PissedOffNinjaBum · 2012-02-24T01:08:13+00:00

Well I have been in /r/feminism in a thread talking about how porn objectifies women and gives an unrealistic expectation for sex. The best thing to get you prepared for your opposition is to go into one of those threads and see what arguments they pose. Knowing what arguments they will bring up will really help you.

dermanus · 2012-02-23T20:24:27+00:00

This article is written by a retired sex worker and addresses the question explicitly. She has many other articles in a similar vein.

As far as I know, she's never identified herself as an MRA of any stripe, but there is a lot of overlap between her views and those of most MRAs.

womblefish · 2012-02-23T20:52:10+00:00

Prostitution was legalised in New Zealand in 2003, in many ways it serves a an example of what would happen if prostitution were legalised in the US (both English speaking, western, relatively wealthy countries.)

The primary purpose of legalisation was to protect prostitutes. e.g. I recall reading an IAMA by an American prostitute saying that when she tried to quit, the brothel owner beat her unconscious and stole her money.. I was like WTF, call the cops... oh yeah.. you can't.

With legalised prostitution there are no victims. Just horny guys and very well paid women. It doesn't do any harm to anyone or society.

PS. If you want bonus points in your class, why don't you send an email to The New Zealand Prostitutes Collective and ask them what they think about the subject.

They're like a union for prostitutes, they focus on working conditions, safe sex education, and public perception of the sex industry.

Its 10am in New Zealand, they might be able to respond quite quickly..

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-02-24T00:29:14+00:00

"It detracts from sex"

If that's true, than any fictional account of anything detracts from reality, or even our own imaginations.

"It's degrading"

Perhaps, although volunteering or being conscripted to be a bullet shield can be dehumanizing as well. Objectification kind of has a bad rap. I mean, if it's voluntary, is it really subjugation?

it's abusive or horrible

There are aspects of sex that involve concepts of power. This can be as simply as being submissive or a bottom to the compexities of BDSM where someone feels in control by relinquishing it to someone else. People consenting to indulge in power fantasies-even vicariously through porn-is an exploration or expression of sexuality. Calling porn abusive or horrible is basically calling sexuality abusive or horrible.

2012-02-23T19:38:28+00:00

How do I best explain that arguments like "It's degrading" or "It detracts from sex" are fucking stupid? And do you guys have any effective ways of defending the legitemacy of the sex industry other than "it's clearly not wrong, so why not?" I've heard arguments from parties ranging from classmates to Noam Chomsky about how it's abusive or horrible, but nobody feels compelled to defend that assertion. They just say it like it's self-evident, and that's not how you rhetoric. However, I'd like to be able to speak from a stronger position than "your logic is wrong...." I'd like to speak from a position of "... and mine is right."

Quoted for record

curious67 · 2012-02-23T20:04:05+00:00

Posts on Prostitution

Feminist arguments against prostitution debunked

Human Stupidity attacks the child pornography witch hunt (54 posts), which is a far bigger taboo then pornography. You can take arguments from the child porn articles and apply them to pornography

Specifically the research by Milton Diamond who showed that legally available child porn reduces sex crimes against children.

I believe that the same reputable researcher Milton Diamond had shown that availability of pornography reduces rape and sex crimes in general. Do a search (and let me know, send me a private message)

The argument about "degrading" is ridiculous. The female porn stars make more money then male porn stars, and more money then many male professionals. Who are the moralists to prohibit them to make money the way they choose. Their body is not theirs?

The same argument counts for prostitutes. Let them choose what they want to do.

For deeper analysis read about Professor Robert Kurzban, Hypocrisy, and meddling in other people's sexual affairs. His book gives an evolutionary explanation why people feel the need to meddle in other people's private sex life. Why we think we are liberal and still criminalize consensual sexual behavior which would be none of our business.

Also, don't miss http://theantifeminist.com and sites linked from there

misseff · 2012-02-23T21:26:39+00:00

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but posts like this always confuse me. How is it you've come to hold your opinion, if you are unable to defend it? I can't imagine believing something without having come to that conclusion through some kind of logic other than, "Yep, sounds about right." Your position is pretty much the same as the people you're saying are wrong.

2012-02-23T21:35:48+00:00

I agree 100% that to regulate or ban pornography on the basis that it harms women is tantamount to admitting that women require state protection in the same way that children do. No feminist in their right mind should argue in favour of such a thing.

However, I DO think that pornography more than often depicts women being, or allowing themselves to be, dominated by men, and encourages the notion that this is sexually appealing. While this may be damaging, it's not accurate to blame pornography as the reason why this is so. I think it says more about how society views gender roles, and if you banned pornography on a causal basis, you wouldn't even come close to addressing the real issue.

CremasterGuy · 2012-02-23T21:50:29+00:00

Instead of getting an MRA point of view, which will be dismissed, quote one of these sex-positive feminists.

McIanAvelli · 2012-02-23T22:15:18+00:00

How about privacy? Just as the Supreme Court has struck down laws against sodomy because of the right to privacy, my right to view pornography is to be protected for exactly the same reasons.

JeremiahMRA · 2012-02-23T18:52:38+00:00

Tell them their assumptions are based on what's politically correct in a world where everything is backwards, a world that is falling apart, where the family unit has been destroyed, and education is nothing but indoctrination, and so they really have no business discussing these matters like their opinions mean shit. Tell them they'll learn more about morality by spending a week reading manosphere material than they will arguing about such ridiculous things as whether porn and prostitution are "wrong". Besides, it's none of their business. I'll fuck and fap to whatever the fuck I want.

Demonspawn's answer's good though, as we live in a politically correct Leftist world, if you can turn an issue around and make it about women or blacks or homosexuals, people might care. Tell them the only reason people are against porn and prostitution is because they think it exploits women, in other words they don't think women have the right or ability to think for themselves, and that's misogyny. Throw in something about homos or minorities and you'll have the classroom weeping with pity for the poor abused victim classes and then cheering you on as a paragon of virtue. Here's an idea: Tell them that 30% of transexuals make a living in the porn industry (completely made up) and so being against porn is "transphobia", a cardinal sin in the Leftist bible.

JeremiahMRA · 2012-02-23T19:03:30+00:00

The U.S. Government and the chivalrous males are going to declare war on porn. Click here: War on Porn. Obviously, they do not understand why porn is so rampant these days and generating vast revenues. Here is a hint, women are not putting out for their husbands anymore and overall American women are ugly and mean to be around, so an American male has no choice but to find porn as a satisfying alternative to find sweet, pretty, lovable, and naked women. It is really easy to put the porn industry out of business - women starting having sex with your husbands everyday and do anything he asks of you, and the rest of you American women start being nice and sweet, willingly to serve the American male in any way he desires as is your calling as a woman. In the meantime, here's to Larry Flynt.

http://mirrorofthesoul.blogspot.com/2004_04_01_archive.html#108127443781064768

SpeakToTheSky · 2012-02-23T21:40:00+00:00

"It's degrading" response: Why don't you let the consenting adults who produce porn, and look at it, determine what is degrading? Isn't it also degrading to women to imply they don't have the capacity to say no?"

"It detracts from sex" response: Many women and men find it erotic. What makes you the judge of what goes on in other people's bedrooms.

LoneRanger21 · 2012-02-23T21:01:32+00:00

I can't recall who said it, but something along the lines of "Assertions made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Unless they've got something backing their opinion, its irrelevant. If they do have support, than they're just bad at debating.

misseff · 2012-02-23T19:38:50+00:00

There are pornstars on social networking sites. You can try sending a message to a few of them asking for their point of view on the issue. Send out a lot of messages (to many different pornstars, don't spam one), because they probably get a lot of mail.

If you succeed with this, you have personal testimony from the people working in the sex industry. They'd know more about whether or not it's degrading than someone outside it.

Title	MRAs, help me. We're having a discussion in my Contemporary Moral Issues class about pornography and prostitution.
Author	Doctor_Loggins
Upvotes	33
Comments	56
Date	February 23, 2012 6:33 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/q2tji/mras_help_me_were_having_a_discussion_in_my/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/mras-help-me-were-having-a-discussion-in-my.1027171 https://theredarchive.com/post/1027171

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