Saw this Norman Rockwell illustration and I thought: If the black eye were on the girl would the picture be considered folksy and funny?

Hamakua · 2011-09-10T21:39:21+00:00

I always interpreted this piece as him getting caught cheating as the time in which it was rendered that would have been the only acceptable reason for seeing a "marriage counselor".

What always puzzled me was her mischievous smile... as though she was in charge all along.

One thing Rockwell illistrations always relayed, was the "essence" or "spirit" of the times/conditions he was depicting.

I do not think this is a case of him trying to push one agenda or another forward, but just his interpretive snapshot.

HAving said that, I think it is an interesting point of view in that it shows that, at least in rockwell's time, "women were not slaves". (as anyone from that generation would honestly testify to)

trollfeeder1 · 2011-09-10T18:45:54+00:00

Nope. Not by modern standards. But by modern standards the illustration isn't folksy or funny either. It's fucked up.

NULLACCOUNT · 2011-09-10T18:58:13+00:00

I haven't seen much of rockwells work, but I always thought it was like Frost poems, charming and sweet on the outside, but slightly darker or bitter on closer inspection. This one for example which shows the contrast between what is expected of men and what is http://www.best-norman-rockwell-art.com/images/1922-04-29-Saturday-Evening-Post-Norman-Rockwell-cover-Boy-Lifting-Weights-no-logo-400-Digimarc.jpg

Offensive_Brute · 2011-09-11T12:08:23+00:00

Don't worry, she has bruises too, but because of the social taboo of wife beating, they are all hidden under her clothing.

Ma99ie · 2011-09-10T21:16:38+00:00

Dude! Are you really going to fight the current gender war madness in the past? Really?

ENTP · 2011-09-10T19:17:15+00:00

I find the illustration quite disturbing.

TheRealPariah · 2011-09-11T08:56:15+00:00

You are missing the reason Norman Rockwell did the painting... decades ago. There are always much more being said in Rockwell's paintings. That was his style; he made paintings that were folksy/funny at first glance, but ones that were much more bitter/dark/satirical on closer inspection.

nitrogen76 · 2011-09-10T21:52:25+00:00

Hey, at least they are in counceling. Thats a big step.

2coolfordigg · 2011-09-11T15:13:11+00:00

What I don't get is how do you beat the shit out of someone then lay down next to them and go to sleep? As my mom used to say to my dad when he got angry at her " Now think about what you are about to do because you have to go to sleep sometime!"

yasee · 2011-09-11T16:32:19+00:00

Ask and Norman Rockwell shall provide: black eye on a girl.

Very different context, naturally.

apfeif · 2011-09-10T19:52:48+00:00

"Oh gosh that's so cute. He must have done something horrible! Good for her!" Blech. Abuse is abuse.

AnInfiniteAmount · 2011-09-10T23:54:57+00:00

[permanently deleted]

nullibicity · 2011-09-10T20:01:30+00:00

It was a different time. And yet, some people still have no problem with it.

TheoreticalFunk · 2011-09-10T21:19:25+00:00

Do you have any critiques of hieroglyphics, by chance?

sixofthebest · 2011-09-11T01:00:04+00:00

[permanently deleted]

IHaveALargePenis · 2011-09-11T05:02:22+00:00

I don't want to devalue the feminist argument about this issue, so lets get that part straight. But yes, you are correct.

flip69 · 2011-09-11T18:47:19+00:00

It's very important to have a sense of time and context of this piece. Rockwell's illustrations creation dates ranged from 1910 (aprox) to the 1970's.

By the look and style of this I would say that it's set in the LATE 1950's (it was painted in 1963)](http://www.rockwell-center.org/exploring-illustration/marriage-counselor/)

While "Joyce" in the above link ends her commentary with the line: "Notice also that as she hold’s her husband’s derby hat, her right index finger is wrapped in a bandage–like a valiant samurai honorably wounded in battle."

I don't see it quite the same way....

The way I view is is that the male is in a female dominated relationship. He having a black eye, Her right index finger is bandaged up. While she wears a smirk of amusement at her "husbands" attempt to remain straight faced, both are playing up the illusion of a proper well dressed couple and dutiful wife by holding his hat in her lap. This was intentional as the photo model studies he took for this painting had different expressions on the female and would have sent a different message indeed (if used).

In the composition, She has him cornered against the far end of the waiting room sofa and "visibly pressed" up against the hard wooden office room door. This is in sharp contrast to Norman's typical portrayal of American men and manliness... one where hard work, athletics and achievements via labor are typically spotlighted. He's made this man look like a banker. Something was was still despised in the USA at the time especially in the US agricultural "heartland" where harsh memories of foreclosures in the depression persisted. Especially someone like Norman who had his entire career based on the common man and the rural vs the big city type of society.

I think that this has much to do with why this image would be produced, it's with the context of post war 1950's with an example of a wimpy "fancy" financial banker what is pushed around and beaten by his wife. As a sort of just deserts and how the high and mighty are brought low at the home. Especially a "non-man" that produces his income off of the interest of the hard working "common people".

The "amusement" I would think here is that he's she's clearly in charge and playing the pretext of a dutiful wife. It's important to note that Norman made sure to have her right hand's index finger bandaged up to indicate that she's hurt her hand by delivering a punch to his eye.
Perhaps it's also a reference to the common wounds that police find on people who attack others with a knife... as the kitchen knife slips forward when used to stab vs cut... this can be discounted as he's still walking around.. I'll go with a injured right hand from punching.

Still it's clearly a image of domestic abuse by a wife to a husband. it's also a attack upon the "non man" that the farmland living Norman Rockwell may have perhaps personally despised himself.

Or even more interestingly, it's perhaps a self portrait. Normal Rockwell was a tall and very thin man himself and his first wife received psychiatric treatment which at the time would have been very uncommon. He also received treatment as well. His therapist was said to have told himthat he painted his happiness, but did not live it. His wife died two years before this painting.... perhaps part of a process of dealing with their past marriage?

THEMACGOD · 2011-09-11T18:54:50+00:00

That wood grain must have been a bitch to paint...

hambeastly · 2011-09-11T00:08:01+00:00

Every Rockwell work I've ever seen made me want to vomit. I don't understand how anyone could consider his Americanausea folksy and funny, but I agree that it's given more of a pass than it would be if the roles were reversed. Domestic abuse as a joke should not fly in any case, in any era.

FreddyDeus · 2011-09-11T01:10:07+00:00

I don't think it looks folksy or funny. And who said it was meant to?

astitious2 · 2011-09-11T05:34:40+00:00

Someone with photoshop get busy so we can find out.

McChucklenuts · 2011-09-10T22:47:28+00:00

She needs to make him a sandwich.

VapeApe · 2011-09-10T21:33:28+00:00

You know I subscribe to r/mensrights because sometimes it does highlight a genuinely bad gender discrimination. I have one thing to say about this and other similar posts....

If you can't take a fucking punch then you are not a man. It's people like you who caused this world to turn into a bunch of pussies who stab and shoot each other instead of a simple fistfight. A punch is a normal everyday occurrence for MOST young boys, or it used to be. Grow the fuck up and take the fucking punch.

I understand you were trying to highlight the gender discrimination of it being a woman with the black eye we wouldn't think it was cute. But remember women don't physically play fight as children, and therefore have no coping mechanism for such a thing. We as men on the other hand DO indeed play fight as children because it's part of our development so we should be able to handle the occasional punch. Probably why the guy in painting doesn't look like he gives a single fuck.

Besides they're going for counseling stfu.

I'm tired of grown fucking men not being able to handle things with a little scuffle. Some of the best friends I've ever had in my life came from fistfights. I agree that spousal abuse works both ways, but man the fuck up and deal with it, don't go whining about it to the community at large. If your lady is hitting you then leave her ass, DONE. That's the same thing I'd tell any woman in the same position. Hell, THAT'S WHAT I DID!

Fistfights are not the end of the world. Take a punch one day right to the nose. It's the only time in your existence when you'll be truly enlightened. The only thing in the entire universe in that moment is white hot pain, and you are at one with everything. Then you snap back from nirvana and have to defend yourself.

Title	Saw this Norman Rockwell illustration and I thought: If the black eye were on the girl would the picture be considered folksy and funny?
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	261
Comments	75
Date	September 10, 2011 6:02 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/kbalr/saw_this_norman_rockwell_illustration_and_i/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/saw-this-norman-rockwell-illustration-and-i.1034818 https://theredarchive.com/post/1034818

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