Is it ironic that a Feminist is skeptical of a man's claim that he was falsely accused of rape, yet to doubt a woman's word when it comes to rape is one of the worst things that one can do?

[–]ManThoughts 54 points55 points56 points 15 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ManThoughts 29 points30 points31 points 15 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]efaew[S] 11 points12 points13 points 15 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I think that it would help to understand the female psyche when it comes to things like this. It is shocking to think about someone possessing this sentiment in regards to molestation, because it is antithetic to our (men's) own moral code. However, when thought of from the perspective of many women, harm that comes to men does not concern them. Furthermore, a transgression against one of their own (women) is far greater than any harm that comes to a disposable man.

To come to terms with this hurtful sentiment regarding your molestation, it might help to realize that women do not truly care about you or other men. The "love" that one sees coming from women is a subconscious feeling that women experience which helps them bond with their mate and guardian. However, men are brought up to believe otherwise because men often form their opinions of women based on their experiences with their mother, and mothers are often the one exception to this rule, as they often love unconditionally.

[–]ManThoughts 12 points13 points14 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]girlwriteswhat 21 points22 points23 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I've come to the conclusion that even women who care about men's issues avoid the MRM. They have feminists basically telling them you all are a bunch of privileged assholes who are angry that you no longer have everything your way (because according to feminists, at one time you did have everything your way, right? And you still mostly do, in all the ways that really count). They paint you guys as all potential rapists and rape apologists, as violent and aggressive and mean and woman-hating. They claim your issues aren't really issues, and that all you want is to go back to patriarchy.

Then a woman ventures out from places where women hang out, and where everyone--including the men who hang out there--is very sensitive and careful about how they say things, and how they qualify the things they say, and how they don't want to offend anyone, a place steeped in an entrenched attitude of default female victimhood, and they come here.

And the truth is, this is guy land. Guys communicate differently from women, especially when there aren't many women around, or when they're in their own space. They don't worry so much about not offending people or hurting feelings, they're blunt and sarcastic and say what they mean, and they often speak in unqualified absolutes. Some of the guys here are justifiably pissed off about things that have happened to them--by individual women abetted by systematic gender bias.

Even conversations where no one says anything misogynistic, the tone here can be...bracing for women accustomed to having everyone tiptoe around their feelings, so they see anger and misogyny in every comment. So even those who care about men's issues and would maybe anticipate getting some social cred from championing the fight against MGM or something...they just can't stand to be here. Because they're used to people sparing their feelings instead of just telling it like it is, they're used to never being held accountable for anything (and they'll be held accountable for what they say here), and they're used to thinking of you guys as misogynists who hate women.

It's not your fault you're guys. And it's not your fault they don't have the intestinal fortitude to linger in a place where men feel they don't have to constantly guard their tongues so as not to offend anyone. It is sad, though.

[–]ManThoughts 5 points6 points7 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree and disagree with this analysis. I agree that most women favor "style over substance." I disagree overall, because the message of Men's Rights is often written with polite and academic language and women reject it just as viciously as they do the more salty stuff. In my personal life, I've politely & kindly explained some issues of men's rights to women, and they've reacted very poorly to say the least.

So what it comes down to, is that women are going to hate on us whether we're nice or we're salty. So we might as well be salty to vent, get attention, and perhaps attract more men to our cause.

I did not mention this above, but IMO the biggest hurdle we have among females is their unwillingness to give up privilege. The privilege to feel like a victim. The privilege of hiring quotas and government benefits. The privilege to accuse males of rape regardless of the facts. The privilege to abort at will. The privileges of courtship and chivalry. etc.

I think a lot of women will be okay with the concept of men's rights. But not okay if furthering them will impact their privilege. After all, women are special and men are disposable. That's what they've always been told.

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It's a touchy subject, because if exacted in the correct manner, rape might not yield any proof, but of course that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I am personally for men AND women's rights (I don't like the stereotype that men are dogs and women are bitches, and others of the like), and I believe that regardless of whether or not it is in prison, a rapist will pay for his/her crime in some manner (karma, essentially), so legal "justice" should not necessarily be a more pressing concern than mental recovery if the rape was committed.

I completely agree with your statement, and the author's, that this is a hypocritical thing to believe. A lot of women nowadays have realized that accusing someone of rape is a fairly easy way to get back at men, and it disgusts me to no end, because it aids a dangerous gender-based stereotype for men, and a damned annoying one for women - and the public eats it right the fuck up! On top of that, my sister was raped and bore her rapist's child, and I feel like because of these self-righteous, lying cunts people take her hardship less seriously. A good court case you might all enjoy where this stereotype was put into play was the Scottsboro case of the early 1900's, where a young woman accused 9 young black men of raping her so she could get out of a hoboing charge. Being that the young men were black and she was a woman, they all went straight to jail with death sentences even though there was significant evidence that they in fact did NOT rape her - like the fact that a couple of them were fucking blind. Feminists act like they're fighting for civil rights, but prejudice will never lead to that. In my opinion, that's as damned obvious as 1+1=2.

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[–]zyk0s 9 points10 points11 points 15 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Well, let's see:

I completely agree with you. Women who falsely accuse men of rape should be charged and sentenced for a monstrous crime. The problem is, false accusations of rape seem to be a big red button issue over here. The moment somebody claims to have been a victim of one, it's like all objectivity and scepticism is tossed to the solar winds, while claims of rape are treated with suspicion. It's a revolting and hypocritical double standard.

So technically, you're right, you never said explicitly that women should be believed and men shouldn't, but you claim men are always believed and women never, which is basically reversing reality to prove a point. Based one your version of reality, what should happen is that women should be believed more, and men less, which when you apply it to the actual reality, translates into distrust in false rape allegations, which could only stem from a belief they are uncommon.

A parallel I could draw is that of a communist defending themselves they never said capitalism was evil and should be eradicated. Perhaps not, but by preaching communism is the way to go and should be instilled everywhere, it's difficult to believe they think otherwise.

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[–]zyk0s 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Technically, you lied about something I'd said.

I am not the redditor you're looking for (just joined the conversation)

Or are you denying that there's a LOT of unquestioning support for men claiming they've been falsely accused of rape over here?

Oh, so we're talking on reddit only? I don't know, I personally didn't see enough stories about men telling they've been falsely accused to really say it's one way or the other. The IAmA you linked to was the first one I saw, and I am on MR, so I should've seen more if there were indeed lots of stories like these. Unless you're talking about random comments on related stories, but then the commentors usually go in every possible direction, and that's not as good an indicator as IAmA stories.

Women's motives when can and should be questioned when there is a lack of evidence, it's the great ol' principles of innocent until proven guilty. A shame you call that misogyny.

I saw a few stories about women being raped, and apart from one or two insensitive "jokes" of very poor taste, I remember most people just asking for details of what happened.

If you compare a discussion about a woman claiming she'd been raped, it's curiously devoid of misandrist comments. Why is that?

Perhaps because this is MensRights? You're also going to cry about the fact there aren't enough misogynistic comments in Feminisms?

Also, am I the only person who finds it amusingly ironic that you should forget that men are victims of rape too?

How you arrived to that conclusion based on what I wrote is a mystery to me. Perhaps because I didn't mention it, because your original spiel didn't take it into account either? Why mention it now? Is it because by appealing to emotions, you're trying to rescue your prior observations and make it look like "women never question when they accuse of rape = men never question when they accuse of rape"? Pathetic.

I think false accusations of rape are much less common than true accusations of rape

Great for you to think that, unfortunately, studies after studies showed an impossibility to decided the massive gray area of "he said, she said", so neither you, nor I, nor anyone, has any good idea of the true proportions of rape and false rape allegations.

And given that rape is a consistently under-reported crime for any number of reasons (especially when men are the victims), the real number of people raped must surely dwarf the number of people falsely accused of it.

Perhaps, but why include rapes that are never reported? Feminists use that premise a lot, and the goal is to silence people who talk about false accusations under the guise of encouraging people to report. Well, guess what, it doesn't work, because with all the effort that has been going on in the past 40 years, reporting rates have plateaued. It seems you can't compel people to denounce rapes, and believing women all the time does not help, just sends more people to jail.

A parallel I could draw is that of a men's rights activist defending themselves they never said feminism was evil and should be eradicated. Perhaps not, but by preaching men's rights is the way to go and should be instilled everywhere, it's difficult to believe they think otherwise.

Actually, it does work. If you ask the average MRA if they want to work with feminists, they will most likely tell you feminism is evil (hasn't always been, but then again, the National Socialist party had great goal of internal peace and economic restoration).

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[–]zyk0s 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I'll just say two things:

you keep switching contexts so the numbers align for you. You now arrived at the global number of rapes in the world vs the number of false rape accusations. It's absolutely meaningless to compare the two. You're living in South Africa, which has a very different context than most western countries. I know very well you have a huge incidence of rape, but that has as much to do with the problem of false accusations in the west as does the incidence of Malaria.
If you take offense at the proposition that the feminist movement, as it stands to do and as it influences society and politics in North America and Europe, is very seldom responsible for positive outcomes and very often pushing for very negative ones (i.e., the movement is "bad", or "evil") than your previous claim you're not a feminist does very little to give you a semblance of impartiality. I don't care what you call yourself, you are clearly ideologically opposed to the member of this subreddit, and stubborn enough that no discussion is possible.

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[–]zyk0s 1 point2 points3 points 15 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

And I can't take you seriously when you say feminism is a good movement. We've tried discussing with feminists, but it's always the same old story: we leave social injustices of women to the hands of feminists, and want to take care of social injustices of men, but feminists, believe they have the answer to men's problems, and tell us how we should do our work. By telling us how we should not believe stories of false rape accusations, you're doing exactly that: you're on your high horse, blessed with infallible knowledge of the world and gender relations, doing the MRM a favor of sharing your vision of the truth. Claim all you want, like Amanda Marcotte did, that all the world needs is more feminism, and then men wouldn't be separated from their children, put in jail on false charges, and used for slave labour. Just don't expect us to listen.

[–]aaomalley 2 points3 points4 points 15 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I actually apologize. I went back to find your comment, which I found, but it was not from you. When I posted this I was certain that you had responded with this comment, I was not trying to make a false claim knowingly. I was reading on my phone and my reading comprehension failed me.

So, you did not make the statement I attributed to you. here is the link to the comment that I was speaking of.

Now, do you believe that false rape allegations are a rare event compared to rape? That was the gist of my post, and I still believe it is true after reading your comment history trying to find the above cited comment that I misattributed to you. I would truly like an honest answer about what you believe the rate of false allegations are. Now, I also understand you are nbot in the US, but in South Africa. The rape incidence and culture is very much different between those two cultures, and perhaps that is where the different beliefs are coming from. As I understand it, rape is a very common event in South Africa, some would even say it was epidemic proportions, and they aren't date rape scenarios most of the time, but stranger rapes. Living in that culture I can easily see someones attitude about rape being very different from someone living in the US or Europe, where rape is much less common and false allegations are demonstrably common.

Anyway, I did want to apologize for falsely stating that it was you and clear the record up here in r/mensrights. If nothing else we are about getting correct information, so I hate the fact that I did that, but at the time I was sure the comment came from you. Anyway, have a nice day.

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When I referred to a Feminist's defense, I was not referring to you. Hence, I used a general argument provided by Feminists, in addition to your argument, which was similar.

You don't have to be a Feminist to be close-minded to issues that are double standards within Feminist rhetoric. In the future, I'd suggest keeping an open mind towards issues like these. Finally, my previous comment applies to your argument that not all "Feminists thinks[sic] the same way." To say this is to imply that Feminists have little common ground with each other. Yet, we know that is false. We know that the majority of Feminists stand for certain things, otherwise, they would not lump themselves into a group. Furthermore, doubting a rape victim as being a horrible sin in their belief system is one of these things on which most of them agree.

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