Hey, MensRights! How do you feel about transgender men?

epiyoo · 2010-04-10T20:18:40+00:00

I couldn't care less how they were born and what their chromosomes are, myself. Men's rights issues can apply just as much to them.

boredatheist · 2010-04-10T19:36:52+00:00

If we're talking about how I "feel" about female to male transsexuals, as in the emotional response that they induce in me, then the answer is unfortunately something like "vague discomfort and homophobia."

If we're talking about how I think the law should treat female to male transsexuals, then I think the answer is "the same as everyone else." I think the law should be completely blind to gender.

Attitudes and emotions are very different from laws. I don't think it's possible or even desirable to legally regulate emotions and mental biases. This is unfortunately a subtle point that is lost on many people.

ignatiusloyola · 2010-04-10T22:30:45+00:00

The issue is rights. Rights apply to all people. We just tend to focus on those that affect fathers and men in general.

If there are people infringing on the rights of the individual due to their transgendered nature, then I think a more appropriate group would be a transgendered rights group. And, since it is an issue of rights, we will fully agree with and approve of their fight.

Blackflag421 · 2010-04-10T20:05:02+00:00

How do I feel about them? I have no strong feelings one way or the other. I'll never understand going through gender reassignment, but that's because biologically you remain a heavily altered <insert gender here>. Most people I've known had a bit stronger response than boredatheist's, but couldn't explain it in any logical terms - just "it's wrong/feels wrong."

Legally, as boredatheist said the law should be blind to gender, so it shouldn't matter.

GorillaJ · 2010-04-12T23:53:28+00:00

I think if you are perceived by society as a man then men's rights apply to you. That said, to me, I will never perceive a transgender man as an actual man. They will always be a woman who wants to be a man to me. It's not going to change; I'll always view someone as what they were born as, if I'm aware of it. That said, I have no desire to punish or demean them, so if they want to consider themselves men and be treated like men by the world at large, good for them if they can convince people to do so.

As for role models, if they were a cool person, sure, why not.

deadcat · 2010-04-11T12:26:18+00:00

How would you feel about a trans man serving as a male role model to your kids, or your family/friends' kids?

As long as they are a good person who is appropriate to act as a role model, I don't see a problem.

PixelRambo · 2010-04-10T20:59:47+00:00

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kanuk876 · 2010-04-10T20:38:28+00:00

First off, I think 90% of people's discomfort with trans/etc is due to unfamiliarity coupled with harsh public opinions.

We humans love to shove people in to pidgin holes. And our society tends to amplify that. The very notion of a "trans man" is a pidgin hole.

How about this: a person born female who lives life as a male is just that... a person born female who lives life as a male. What's the big deal?

Is a man who was born female any different to you than a man who was born a male? (other than the obvious...)

In some cultures, this is accepted and normal. If there are not enough men around, sometimes a woman will switch and live life as a man -- forfeiting all her female entitlements.

How would you feel about a trans man serving as a male role model to your kids

Does this trans man relate to kids primarily via their sexuality? Like most people dealing with kids, the answer should be "No". We have names for people who answer "yes" and many of them imply criminal behavior. Hence, wtf does one's sexual identity and inclinations have to do with kids? Or are you fishing for a response like, "I am afraid of sex, therefore I don't want to explain to my child trans-sexual behavior. Oh, and btw, please don't tell little Suszie that milk comes from cows."... it's kinda academic since I have no kids, but I don't think I would shy away from answering their sex-related questions. At the same time, I view parents who deliberately withhold life-critical information from their children as a form of child abuse.

Do you think "men's rights" applies to trans men just as much as men born with a penis?

Why the fuck wouldn't it? I suspect I speak for most people here when I say that MensRights is about fairness. Human rights. Equality under the law. That sort of thing. Unless you've suddenly turned into a half-tiger half-shark chimera, I don't think there's a problem. If you are half-tiger, half-shark, I gotta say, that's pretty fucking cool.

For the record, I am a straight white male. I have known all sort of straight/bi/trans/etc.

AHumanThatListens · 2010-04-10T20:01:01+00:00

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AHumanThatListens · 2010-04-10T20:12:42+00:00

You may be interested in the (peripherally) related "Gays and MR" question and the answers it got.

adepta · 2010-04-10T19:44:08+00:00

I'm not sure. I don't really care about the "masculinity" part, to be honest. I care about what this means about the mental health of the individual. I don't mean to say that transgender people are crazy, but that I think the wiring of their brains are screwed up somehow (as is the case with many things about the brain that are not crazy-related).

That kind of disconnect with the reality of their bodies appears to be in the level of delusional misidentification syndromes.

I'm waiting to see what science has to say about that. And yeah, I would be a little uncomfortable with having as a role model for my kids a person who thinks they're dead, so I guess I would feel the same about someone who believed they should belong to the opposite sex.

boredatheist · 2010-04-10T20:27:16+00:00

I quite like the idea of a transgendered person as a role model. I think the fact that there are no famous transgendered people (at least that I know of) is exactly the reason why people are suspicious of them.

I think a large part of becoming a thoughtful, "open-minded" person is just encountering many different kinds of people as you grow up, and shattering all of the trite little generalizations and misconceptions that come from being part of an insulated community. I wouldn't be bothered at all by my kids hanging out with a tranny.

Though I'm probably too weird to ever have kids anyway. Sigh.

UsagiMimi · 2010-04-10T21:02:30+00:00

As a MtF Transgender myself, and honestly even as a little child I met a couple, I'd just consider whoever it was how they wanted to be. I never have been revolted in any sense by pretty much any sexual orientation OR representation. But... delving too deep. I would consider a transgender male just as male as any other guy out there, just as masculine, etc... What's between your legs doesn't make up who you are.

Raising kids? No issue. I was raised by an extremely far right baptist family who spent my entire childhood keeping me away from things like cartoons and stuffed animals lest they make me gay. The parents in a large sense don't make the child, at least over issues of gender and sexual orientation.

As of rights- All rights should apply, everything should be equal.

2010-04-10T20:01:38+00:00

I don't feel uncomfortable with him, but there would be some ambiguity on my part as to how to interact with him. I've actually never interacted with one face-to-face so far as I know, but I presume I'd simply adjust to however it seemed natural to interact with them.

I think men's rights apply to all people who are considered men under the law or by society, transgendered or not.

I'd be fine with a trans man serving as a male role models to my hypothetical children. Someone who could make a change for themselves in spite of societal pressure has the kind of personality that I would want my children to emulate.

ristin · 2010-04-12T02:59:26+00:00

Same as everyone else. Why do you ask?

kabukistar · 2010-04-12T03:02:48+00:00

I don't know any open transmen. I've talked to some people that I'm pretty sure were, but I don't really know any.

I do think men's rights applies to transmen as well, for the most part. Men's rights is about removing the negative treatment that society gives us because we are male. As someone who society will see as male, you (more than likely) face this same negative treatment, and so it's equally relevant to you to remove it. Unless, of course, you ever remind people of the fact that you were born female, in order to avoid the treatment. Then you're just side-stepping the problems rather than addressing them.

As far as the children question, I don't have kids. If I did, though, I wouldn't care in the slightest if a transman were acting in a male role-model position for them (assuming, you know, that I was still their primary role model as their father).

Do I consider a transman any different than a cysgendered man? Besides the different body, not really. Then again, I'm the kind of person who believes that the male and female minds are the same thing, and that the only real difference between men and women are physical differences and the socialization we receive.

2010-04-11T01:36:20+00:00

Scared. I had a teacher who was a wo"men", we had rules by which she must be addressed. Personally, I treated her indifferently and it was awkward. I felt it wasn't appropriate and she enjoyed the attention.

SirPlus · 2010-04-11T11:38:29+00:00

I really feel that transgender men are unstable and insecure and that they diagnose their unhappiness as 'trapped within a woman's body' incorrectly.

What qualifies you as 'man' anyway? I love to shop, gossip and I hate football and fighting: does that make me 'transgender'? The mere fact that I use the above qualities to describe either sex is a construct to begin with.

Surely, the concept of rights should be equal and not based on whether your tackle hides or swings.

Bob_Knows · 2010-04-10T20:17:09+00:00

A female is a female even if modified surgically.

AHumanThatListens · 2010-04-10T20:43:46+00:00

I don't recognize them as men but rather as a third or fourth gender. Same goes for MTF.

WebZen · 2010-04-11T09:51:56+00:00

I know a guy who "dated" transexuals and cross dressers. I've met several of his lovers. Had fun flirting with some of them and giving them the "larry david" stare, but I really wasn't at all interested and I'm pretty sure they knew it. I don't care what other people do. People do odd things sometimes, I do odd things sometimes, it's not more of an issue with that than with any other odd thing people might do.

I'd hire one without any concern in most cases. Only if they were flaming and had to interact with the public would it be an issue, and then it would boil down to lost revenue due to other people's prejudice.

The law should treat them as they treat anyone else, although I'm ok with them being kept out of general population for their own safety. Same for any physically weak person, too. Not that trannys are weak, but they are special targets and that's a consideration.

I think they are messed up in the head. Most likely it's the parent's fault. That's ok, we're all messed up in the head, it just shows more with some people. Some people are more messed up than others, and as such things go, trannys are about as fucked up as people get. However we are messed up, it gets worse as we get older. No different. It is always important for people to know themselves. Not so they can be cured, because that's largely impossible. It's so that they will know when their shit is active and they can censor themselves before it does harm.

I read iwanttobeagirl's post on physiology. Could be true, doesn't change much for me except maybe it's genetic and not the parent's fault. They are all Bruce Reimer, they just got that way via genetic error instead of surgical error.

With few exceptions, such as cancer, cosmetic surgical alteration of one's body is monstrous. I don't care if it's a boob job, steroid fueled muscles, turning a vagina into a penis, or, horrors, a penis into a vagina.

If a tranny were to get sexual with me without first revealing "her" status, I would consider that a form of sexual assault. I might hurt that person, depending on what exactly happened.

retnemmoc · 2010-04-11T03:10:04+00:00

I wonder, if I get a dolphinplasty, will greenpeace help keep me out of tuna?

2010-04-12T15:49:06+00:00

Is a man who was born female any different to you than a man who was born a male?

Psychologically, I don't think there are any base differences; people grow up being shaped and influenced by their experiences/peers, which is directly affected by the gender they are perceived as, and they naturally learn to identify/conform through their gender but their psychological qualities and characteristics shouldn't be considered gendered, much less predetermined from birth.

Physically/biologically, however, someone born a woman will always be a woman and someone born a man will always be a man; no amount of surgery or therapy can change that. DNA is what it is, it cannot be changed(at least not yet), and I don't think it's right to encourage or support delusions to the contrary, especially to those who would identify as transgenders. We should be working towards accepting and respecting our bodies(which includes any sort of possible genetic anomalies, such as xxy), not working against them.

How would you feel about a trans man serving as a male role model to your kids, or your family/friends' kids?

It would depend on the individual in question; his/her views, qualities, accomplishments and behavior. I would not encourage my children or any other children in my family to see any role models as male or female role models; I would encourage them to judge a person based on his/her qualities and accomplishments as a human being, not as a man, woman or otherwise.

As such, generally speaking, I would not have any problems with a trans woman or trans men serving as a role-model to children when being judged on merits which are inconsequential to their psychological condition; however, I also would not appreciate anyone encouraging children, either through their opinions or through actual physical/personal precedent, that their gender is purely psychological and that they could/should resort to body modifications to match their minds/identity(although, this is certainly not something I would consider exclusive to trans-genders themselves). While I would want my children to be initiated, not isolated, from all aspects of life and reality; I would also consider encouraging this type of mentality, especially to children, to be detrimental and harmful(much like I would consider someone preaching the bible/koran to children to be harmful).

Do you think "men's rights" applies to trans men just as much as men born with a penis?

Any kind of anti-male prejudice/discrimination affecting trans men due to them being interpreted or perceived as men, as well as any kind of anti-male prejudice/discrimination that affects trans-women due to them being men, should be a men's rights issue. Any kind of sexism directed towards men in general includes trans-genders as well, one way or another. In any case, I also do believe that the law, and society, should really be gender-blind in virtually all cases; equal rights should be for everyone, so whether they are trans-gendered or not should really make no difference

Title	Hey, MensRights! How do you feel about transgender men?
Author	AHumanThatListens
Upvotes	15
Comments	109
Date	April 10, 2010 7:15 PM UTC (16 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/bp5zu/hey_mensrights_how_do_you_feel_about_transgender/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/hey-mensrights-how-do-you-feel-about-transgender.1049920 https://theredarchive.com/post/1049920

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