Why do so many of you see feminists as your opponents?

duhhhh · 2022-05-31T22:57:22+00:00

Feminists and tradcons are both a problem. It isn't an either or thing.

Feminists :

Block acknowledgement and support services for male victims of heterosexual rape and domestic violence
Fight shared parenting bills
Fight gender neutral rape laws
Promote the idea that the average man is privileged and benefits from "the patriarchy"
Argue against ending MGM and pretending all FGM is clitoridectomy.
Downplay average mens problems and exaggerate the average womans to make people problems appear to be gendered issues where only women need support.

We want equality in law and public policy. Feminists are the biggest group fighting against that.

If the influential feminist researchers, professors, lobbiests, public policy makers, journalists, authors, politicians, and protesters (and the "real feminists" using their work rather than calling out their sexism, bias, bigotry, data manipulation, outright lies, etc) were to follow the dictionary definition of feminism rather than the man hating spirit of feminism, we wouldn't be at odds with them. Most of us would be feminists ourselves.

kingdragoclash · 2022-05-31T22:50:51+00:00

Actually (imo) feminists see us as the " Opponents " Way more so cause in a majority of cases ( at least those of which I have seen) feminists usually are the " Aggressor " And start the argument

CaptainPrestedge · 2022-05-31T23:09:14+00:00

You haven't had it worse in a very long time. If you want some hard truths you should talk to and actually listen to what FTM men feel after their transition and what they now face, what they go through as men, the amount of privileges they lose and how dire it is. They don't even have the full picture as you won't find many of them in one of the hundreds and hundreds of dirty, dangerous, under appreciated, under paid and unseen professions. Nor will they be dragged through the same misery with family courts as often. But you should pull up a seat and listen to them, you might actually lose some of that blind ignorance you all have.

tenchineuro · 2022-06-01T00:16:01+00:00

I'm a feminist, and while I believe women on average still have it worse

Have what worse?

Why do so many of you see feminists as your opponents?

I think this calls for Karen Straughan's 'no true feminist' post, which is a very short list of some of what feminism has done very recently (and no doubt will make you proud)...

The following is a very informed and highly reusable comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

iainmf · 2022-06-01T00:50:13+00:00

The men's rights movement tried working with feminists for a long time. Unfortunately, most of those feminists did not want to work with the men's rights movement. The feminists who are open to men's rights, are not welcome in feminist circles. EG Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Summers.

The conflict between feminism and the MRM is a situation feminists created and feminism can fix.

I think a lot of MRAs would work with feminists if feminists;

accept that non-feminist views are legitimate and valuable; and
support and advocate for more representation of men's views, experiences and interests in public discussion and policy making; and
admit when they have been wrong or done things that have negatively affected men and boys; and
condemn misandry and bigotry against men in their movement, rather than justifying it; and
re-examine underlying assumptions in feminist theory, by including men's experiences and perspectives, and including information from a wide range of scientific fields.

maxlvb · 2022-05-31T23:18:03+00:00

AND....

It's a one hour old account! Why do so many feminists feel they have to create new accounts just to post their views on feminism here. It seems like they're doing all they can to hide their 'identity' when posting their POV, I have to wonder why they think they need to do that? What have they got to hide?

(once again)

If you get offended by MRA's here in this sub talking about all that is wrong with feminism, then you are part of the problem that makes such talk necessary....

Feminists, women, and their white knight defenders need to stop holding men to standards they're personally and collectively unwilling to meet.

I am still trying and waiting for any/all feminists to define feminism for me without using sexist anti-male stereotypes.

mgtowolf · 2022-05-31T23:06:18+00:00

I see it as the other way around. It isn't us obstructing feminists, it's them obstructing us. We don't disrupt, assault and insult people going to, attempt to shut down feminist events; it's them doing that to us. We obviously don't want the same thing, as we want equality, yet feminists want to maintain the status quo of lies about women being oppressed.

TextDependent6779 · 2022-05-31T23:15:36+00:00

simple as, look at the australian 'march for men' organised by Sydney Watson. enraged feminists showed up to pretest a march for mens rights, and the feminists eventually turned so violent police were involved.

many of us also take issues with the idea of 'patriarchy'. im sure someone will be here soon to link their explanation of what's troubling about patriarchy. i have my own issues with it. i understand you, and appreciate your concern over mens issues though. i uses to be feminist too.

i mean, the MRM isn't a monolith. some MRA's are feminists, its just that for most of us, MRA and feminist can't be synonymous. for most of us, MRA and feminist are mutually exclusive. but being the enemy of feminism is far from being anti-womem or anti-womensrights.

we do not actively oppose feminist marches/rallies/protests. feminists do for those of the MRM.

mikesteane · 2022-05-31T23:30:29+00:00

I believe women on average still have it worse

You're wrong. On all objective measures, women are better off than men.

DavidByron2 · 2022-06-01T00:30:43+00:00

I get the impression most of you see feminists as your main opponents

Duh. Other forms of tradcon are also bad but you don't see them getting billions of dollars in funding from the imperialist government do you? You don't see them dictating how cops should arrest only men or other key institutions should ignore male vuctims (though like feminists, other tradcons support pro-female discrimination).

Feminism is a hate movement that's funded by the state. Obviously it's the worst.

I believe women on average still have it worse

Sure but like all other feminists you can't actually name even a single issue where women are discriminated against. This makes you a liar and a bigot.

we still want the same thing

This is a civil rights group and you're a part of a hate movement, so no. We're opposites.

traditionalists who openly reject both men's and women's rights

Feminists are a type of traditional conservative but tradcons at least used to say men could earn their way to having a place in society by being productive and becoming the effective personal slave to a woman to raise children with her. Men were presumed guilty but could earn their way to acceptance by society. Feminists say men are the devil and can never be anything else, that children belong to the mother only and that men have no part in society ever and are all rapists and killers. Feminists in other words are outright bigots.

GulchDale · 2022-05-31T23:09:52+00:00

They act like as if advocating for men is a zero sum game. As in, if we address issues that men have it will take away from addressing issues women face. Which is 100% untrue.

But the big problem to feminists is that by addressing men's issues it highlights female privilege and how all the advantages they have in society over men. This is hugely damaging because the entire point of feminism is that these privileges don't exist at all and women are victims on par with racial minorities. Which anyone with half a brain knows is ludacris.

Rhadaze · 2022-06-01T00:05:49+00:00

Ok. Thanks for posting this. You seem to be the kind of feminist we would like to see more of. I'll try to respond your post the best way I can. It might be a tough read as we are both coming from very different perceptions of reality.

1 - Not all feminists are the same - Feminists like you think you are the majority in the feminist movement. You're not. Or at least, there's a very loud minority that does a lot of damage and goes unchecked by their fellow feminists.

2 - Lack of clear definition - The word feminism doesnt mean anything nowadays. Why? Every feminist has their own definition of it. So when we critique a feminist, another one with different beliefs will show up to defend them, when maybe they shouldn't.

It's like.. they are not really in the same team.. but they are using the same uniforms.. so they fight together because they think they are comrades.

It becomes an elusive idea that cant ever be criticized, because it keeps changing form from one feminist to another.

Feminist needs to be broken down into smaller groups, kinda like christians are. They also should have a clear and well defines set of beliefs. That way we are able to know which groups are the man-hating radicals and which ones are the normal feminists who want a better world for everybody. So far I've only heard the terms TERF and Intersectional for defining specific kinds of feminism.

That's why nowadays, when I do "argue" with a feminist, I dont use that word at all. I just talk about values. I ask "do you think men and women should be payed equally and fairly, and any difference should be well justified by difference in variables, such as production, quality of work, overtime, degrees, etc? You do? Cool! So do I!" Or.. "are you against rape and sexual assault and think all humans beings should be treated with respect? Awesome! Me too!"

Most women who identify as feminists do so for what they think feminism stands for.

3 - Leaving the bubble - The fact that you ask this is so funny it actually looks like a troll post. The way feminists treat every single man as the opponent, and what they do against all men, specially when they talk about men's issues, and yet, you come ask this? It's as if I went to a feminist subreddit as posted "why dont you feminists care about all the men that are being raped?". I mean, you are either ignorant to what feminists are like toward men, or you are being sarcastic. I prefer to assume the former, which still leaves me mindboggled.

But posting here is a good effort to leave your bubble. I also had to leave my bubble. Most men I've known closely were very decent human beings. So at first, I had a hard time realizing how a lot of men can be toxic and in what ways they were toxic. I had to listen to a lot of women I came to know about things they've gone through and how they felt. So.. I had to understand that people could be a lot different than what they were in my inner group of friends and family.

4 - Feminists created this idea of Men Vs Women. It's immature and is an incomplete view of the world.

Just so you know, the vast majority of guys see men who rape as the scum of the earth. Deserving the worst punishment possible. How do you think any man would react if they knew their wife, their sister, their mother or their daughter was raped? In my country, rapists get killed even in jail. Think about that for a second. The worst men find rape unforgivable and disgusting.

5 - Spray targetting all men - It's just that a lot of men started "fighting back" against the damage that loud "possible" minority is doing. Which is a shame. Feminists should be trying to make good guys their allies. Good people with good character should be allied against bad people. Instead, they treat every man as a piece of shit and turning the best of us into opponents, and it's justifiable.

I just said a few lines ago that I understand how men can be toxic. But when am I being attacked too? Why is healthy masculinity being attacked to? Why are men considered guilty until proven innocent? A feminist once told me that guys like me are acceptable collateral damage. Yeah.. sure.. I'll just stand still while I get run over.

The funny thing is that ideas like red pill and mgtow start emerging. Think about that for a second. Why in the world would an idea like red pill and mgtow be valued? It doesnt state that men should control or abuse women. It just says "dealing with women isnt worth it".

Do you think men dont feel the need for a woman in their lives? They crave it! Not having a wife or female friends leaves a hole in any man.. and yet, many of them are giving up on it because the alternative is worse.

And for some reason, feminists hate this as some patriarchal plot from men to attack women. What the hell?

If women were going their own way, I would think that's a sympton of serious problems with men's attitude. Not the other way around.

As a man.. I'm scared of being falsely accused of rape. I'm scared of being in a situation I'll have no proof later on that nothing happened. I'm also disheartened by the fact that men are valued by their wallet, and not who they are. I'm also scared that if I marry and divorce, my wife will take everything and leave me with nothing.. oh... wait.. that did happen. Crap. Redpill could've saved me from that one.

6 - Who you're gonna call? - I also believe the main responsability for the health of a group belong to its members. The first people to denounce and fight against toxic masculiny should be men, only then women. The first people to denounce and fight against feminist are the better feminists.

Do either of these happen? It depends on how you define a problem and which problems deserve this kind of attention.

🤔

This is complicated.. even in these kind of things, men and women usually unite for a goal. Even in abortion rights, half the women are against it and half the men are for it. Ifaik, same happened with women voting.

I guess the improvement of a class needs inside and outside input/effort. Because I listened to women about their experiences and feelings, I got an even better idea of how other men can be bad. There was a blind spot for me there. I took somethings for granted. I think the same should be done inside feminism. Part of them should listen to men's side and say "hey... we (or some of us) are screwing up somethings and we (or they) should try to do better!

ignatztempotypo · 2022-06-01T01:13:10+00:00

Because the feminists of late seem to be determinedly anti male, on all fronts. It's as simple as that.

Dry-Pianist1853 · 2022-05-31T23:12:34+00:00

probably because feminists tend to downplay men's issues and is pretty much a power grab for women.

IceCorrect · 2022-06-01T00:04:19+00:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5xp6qzH664

Now tell me how feminist dont see males as enemies

Someone have longer version, beacuse vid from This post is removed

TheSquiggy · 2022-06-01T01:13:36+00:00

If feminisim the movement acted in accordance with feminisim the definition, we'd all be feminists.

The lack of parity between the two has yielded this as the result.

And based on your replies in this thread, it seems to me that you thing that the broader femi ist movement itself is, in fact , not feminist. So I ask you, where does the disconnect for most self identified feminists occur?

HadrianHoppe · 2022-06-01T01:15:34+00:00

When major feminist organizations get on board with banning male genital mutilation, which is one of the worst forms of child rape imaginable, then I'll gladly work along with them. But as of right now, they trivialize victims of MGM.

The fact that they don't oppose MGM PROVES that they do not value gender equality like they claim to.

And don't tell me they "aren't real feminists", these are the largest feminist organizations I'm talking about. If they "aren't real feminists", then feminism has a huge subversion problem.

Langland88 · 2022-06-01T00:47:33+00:00

I'm a feminist, and while I believe women on average still have it worse

Let me start off by saying this is not a good way to start the discussion in a reddit dedicated to men's issues. While I understand you're sharing you're own beliefs, you've already opened Pandora's box in the reddit. You just welcomed open hostility.

Now it's already been brought up but Feminism is very much a mainstream movement with mainstream respect. The MRA's are painted with the same brush that the KKK, Neo-Nazis, and the historical Nazis have been painted with as well.

The thing is this, when Feminists talk about issues facing women, you get upset when Men use whataboutism to talk about our problems. You accuse us of trying to hijack the narratives of your discussions. However, you Feminists seem to have no qualms to doing the exact same thing when Men want to talk about their problems.

Also your movement is full of hypocrites who seem to have a lot of power within the movement. You have people who control groups like NOW, parts of Academia in the western world, and even political parties primarily from the Left wing in many developed nations. All these people have shared the narratives that Men are the problem and reason behind all the bad things in the world and it's created a very divisive political climate and social climate as well. We're seeing a lot of men and women resent each other and paint straw men from both sides thanks to these very vocal few who have the clout. And what's you common excuse when we point these out, that they're not real Feminists. Classic No True Scotsman fallacy. Also let's mix in some Mott and Bailey in the mix when these people get caught putting their foot in the mouth, they default that their hate speech is meant that you're just fighting for equality.

Now the last part I'll touch base on is the fact your claim that Feminism is also for men. I find that to be a false statement. Your movement has yet to truly help at this point except in Scandinavia. You have loads of Shelters available for women if they are victims of DV and the Duluth Model has helped them a lot. However that same model has done the opposite. That model has painted men as the oppressors and abusers and ignores men who have been victims of DV. Also there is a severe lack of Men's shelters and very small number of shelters even allow men. Ever heard of Earl Silverman? He's the Canadian who tried to open up a shelter for male victims and got sever backlash from Feminists, who convinced the government to not fund the shelter. Mr. Silverman lost his home and his shelter and the continued backlash led him to take his own life. Of course I heard the excuses from Feminists on this one saying it was the politicians who didn't support it, but many of these politicians collected lobby money from Feminist organizations. This is only one example, Feminism has never been for Men and anytime you say you support men's issues, it's only lip service to keep men in your ranks.

In short, Feminism has done a lot to stop Men's Issues from coming to the light and that's why many here have problems with the Movement. This is why I call myself an Egalitarian. Egalitarians concern themselves with both Men's and Women's issues equally and the term itself isn't gendered which makes it better.

Greg_W_Allan · 2022-06-01T04:19:16+00:00

Feminists in Australia were responsible for decades of exclusion from taxpayer funded services experienced by male victims of child sexual abuse. Thousands of them, denied mental health services they desperately needed, committed suicide. The ideology will never cleanse that blood from it's hands.

Icy-Wallaby4326 · 2022-06-01T04:38:34+00:00

Flip the script and a man asking this question would immediately be banned.

Not the biggest move an ally would do.

g1455ofwater · 2022-06-01T06:32:54+00:00

I used to enjoy a hobby message board that got taken over by feminists that demonized men and attacked anyone that dared question feminism. So I see feminists as opponents because of their own hateful behavior.

I've never been forced to swear allegiance to traditionalists to participate on an internet platform that was unrelated to traditionalism.

Practical-Rip6471 · 2022-05-31T23:39:22+00:00

Because we are neither blind or stupid! Brand new account. This is the first they've posted! This is an obvious troll account. I encourage you all to block it. By the way, by your devious and dishonest actions, you've kind of disproved your point.

WingsofSky · 2022-05-31T23:42:04+00:00

There's those that seek equality and fair play. Then those that want to "Kill all men". As they put it.

rwmemer · 2022-06-01T00:44:12+00:00

Feminists are the ones with knives at our throats and celebrate when our lives are worse.

Aimless-Nomad · 2022-06-01T06:22:59+00:00

'we want the same thing'

Joke of the century lol

2022-06-01T07:31:46+00:00

I learned a lot about the Men's Rights Movement by watching this documentary:

(trailer:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OByB2EjMzi8

(watch on youtube:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mB13NV7rY0

Yes it's called the red pill, and yes has all kinds of charged wording and reaction grabbing symbolism and whatnot in the trailer, but I think it shows an honest depiction of the side of the issue that most people don't see. You do have to pay to watch it I think, but hey it costs about as much as one coffee. I would have paid 5 times that to watch it in retrospect. It's very informative.

Disclaimer: I don't consider myself an MRA or a feminist. I'm male.

fengpi · 2022-06-01T08:35:35+00:00

In my senior year, my high school participated in the first "Take your daughters to work day," an event conceived by the Ms. Foundation, which was (and still is) an explicitly feminist organization. My school was a private (mostly white) prep school which could, by no stretch of the imagination, be considered disadvantaged.

The event, as they originally conceived it, was that girls (and only girls) would get a day off from school. The day was later changed a few years later, due to outside lobbying from teachers & parents, but having a girls-only holiday captures the original spirit in which the idea was created.

That experience, better than anything else since, has shown me what feminism is actually about: doing favors for women & girls, regardless of their actual need and regardless of whether it is fair.

oflbtbs · 2022-06-01T00:06:12+00:00

The stated principles of feminism are good, but the facts have changed since the Susan B Anthony days. Modern feminism has failed to face the reality that equality has largely been achieved, and then some. What feminism now represents is a movement for inequality; for female superiority cloaked in egalitarianism and based on the big lie that females are an oppressed underclass in western society. The true facts are denied and simply dont matter in modern feminism.

EqualityCompass · 2022-06-01T00:19:56+00:00

It's not so much a problem with Feminists. Well, it is, but that is more of an involved discussion.

The problem is that Feminists largely have absolutely no problem with the insane #killallmen #maletears contingent who think it's a zero sum game, a contingent with enormous institutional power I might add.

It's like asking why minorities have a problem with American Conservatives. It's not that they are explicitly racist, it's just that they largely don't have a problem sharing a political bed with people that are.

Until feminists fight the 'allies' in their midst who are anti-equality rather than tacitly supporting them then we can only assume that these views are held by feminism as a whole.

Title	Why do so many of you see feminists as your opponents?
Author	05183throwaway
Upvotes	0
Comments	89
Date	May 31, 2022 9:55 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/v217py/why_do_so_many_of_you_see_feminists_as_your/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-do-so-many-of-you-see-feminists-as-your.1117820 https://theredarchive.com/post/1117820

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