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Reluctance by Feminists to accept trans women exposes Feminism for what it is. Nothing more than a private club for select members.

NeoNotNeo

November 8, 2022
256 upvotes
/r/MensRights

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/terf-trans-women-britain.html

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Title Reluctance by Feminists to accept trans women exposes Feminism for what it is. Nothing more than a private club for select members.
Author

NeoNotNeo

Upvotes 256
Comments 125
Date November 8, 2022 7:45 PM UTC
(3 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ypweym/reluctance_by_feminists_to_accept_trans_women/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/reluctance-by-feminists-to-accept-trans-women.1139338
https://theredarchive.com/post/1139338
Red Pill terms in post
feminismfeminist
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Comments

[–]OutrageousAd6177 62 points63 points64 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As a great man once said, "militant feminism is the movement to get ugly women the same benefits as beautiful women". Nothing more...

[–]reverbiscrap 86 points87 points88 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Feminism was, is, and will always be a white female supremacist ideology.

It began that way, and has never stopped. It only co-opted darker colored bullet bags on the way.

[–]somethingneet 38 points39 points40 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Susan B. Anthony said something to the effect of "I'd rather cut off my own arm than give a negro a ballot"

[–]NeoNotNeo[S] 18 points19 points20 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Wow. How did I miss this. Simple Google search ( which means most of it is blocked ) she was a flat out racist.

[–]somethingneet 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The Suffragettes sold out racial equality to ensure that white women were allowed to vote

[–]Hades7785 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Never best described

[–]CawlinAlcarz 55 points56 points57 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The Feminists are just pissed that World War Womyn™ was supplanted by World War Trans™ in 1/20th the time.

[–]CharlesForbin 15 points16 points17 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Modern Feminism exposes itself many ways, but this isn't it.

It's not hard to understand why women in general have lost patience with the trans community. Those identifying as trans women, and the hordes of activists supporting them have been eroding women's participation in society in recent years. They are dominating women's sport. They are occupying women's only bathrooms. They avail themselves to programs designed to assist women. The only reason any US President had to meet with Dylan Mulvaney, was that he decided to wear dresses, for a mendacious photo opportunity.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest if somebody feels better wearing a woman's costume, or changing their name, but that does not make them a woman, any more than my wearing a bat suit makes me a caped crusader.

Women fought for (and eventually won, decades ago) equal participation in western society. I can well understand how insulting it is that it is being eroded by men wearing costumes, many of whom are only in it for the 'likes'.

[–]Status_Confection364 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

You can smell the transphobia in this comment from a mile away.

Indeed - trans folks have not navigated this extremely binary, unaccepting world perfectly, how could they? What would their stories look like if they had more acceptance and place in society?

Trans women want to participate in society like the rest of us get to. They're not trying to maraud anything or rob anyone of anything, they are struggling to get by and barely make it through life.

Athletics are a whole different can of worms - there should be some trans or genderless leagues in sports, that way, nobody can complain about the situation.

[–]R3dUrDead -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I’m not comfortable with men who used to be women using the same bathroom as me. I’m not comfortable with women who used to be men using the same bathroom as my wife.

If you grow stubble and have a dick, you should use the men’s bathroom. That doesn’t make me transphobic.

I’m not transphobic, and it’s not transphobic to wonder why there’s a grown man wearing a dress in the women’s bathroom. We’re questioning their existence in that bathroom, not their existence just.

[–]Status_Confection364 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

You're denying the validity of their gender expression, which is by definition transphobic. Also "man in a dress" is a crossdresser, not a transgender human - a huge difference.

I am comfortable enough with my gender to allow someone else who is exploring theirs in a respectful, serious, and genuine manner into the same bathroom I use.

A transgender human is literally becoming the other gender, not just dressing it. Their levels of circulating estrogen as a transgender human are probably equal to or greater than mine as a cis-gender woman. This means they cannot grow facial hair, their testicles stopped producing sperm and have shrunken to be tiny, they're growing breasts, their penis may not be able to erect (and also shrunk), their muscles shrink, their body odor ceases, fat distributes to their hips and butt, body hair disappears, their cheekbones are widening and jaw is getting smaller. This person is literally more woman than man. Extremely different situation than a bearded man with ripped muscles walking into the bathroom wearing a dress...

You could dress like Batman, but that doesn't make you him - it just means you wear a costume (like a crossdresser). If you transform yourself - build muscles, master physical skills, sharpen your mind and senses, talk in his voice, defeat crime, carry advanced gadgets and weapons, do everything batman does, AND dress like batman then at some point it does make you batman, or at least people would confidently identify/accept you as such. This is the same for transgender people who transform their body, skills, mind, voice, behavior, and belongings to literally embody more female traits than male. Who fucking cares if they have a penis thats probably going to surgically get turned into a vagina anyways.. if you never saw it, you'd be damn certain the rest of them is a woman, and you might even be attracted to them.

Secondarily, only in cases where people cannot respect the other gender and set healthy boundaries does it matter. Take gender out of the equation and this becomes apparent.

I have also used co-ed bathrooms (a rarity) where both men and women use the same bathroom, just different stalls. There is a very potent understanding of respect, boundaries, and trust that actually allows us to put our differences aside and recognize we are just two humans that need to take a shit. You came out with a penis and I came out with a pussy, we both came out with an asshole that needs to shit. Its only weird if you make it weird, and more often than not I felt relieved to use that bathroom because its actually a way to show you're trustworthy to the opposite gender, well-behaved, and mannered. Segregated bathrooms allow unchecked taboo to brew.

[–]MezzaCorux 29 points30 points31 points 3 years ago (142 children) | Copy Link

I mean, it is reasonable to have some standards and not let anyone who identifies as female in appropriately female only spaces (ie bathrooms and locker rooms) as it can be and has been abused. Just like I wouldn’t want malicious women to say they identify as male to enter appropriately male only spaces and sexually assault and/or harass men. You can hold this position and still think trans people deserve basic human rights.

[–]reverbiscrap 10 points11 points12 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

That treads the same water as feminists saying that because some men commit violent crime, all men should be held suspect.

We can not call for the humanity and inherent goodness in men to be recognized, but deny it in some 'men' because of internalized misandry.

[–]MezzaCorux 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I definitely get where you’re coming from, but being able to use a particular restroom isn’t exactly the best hill to die on. If anything just requiring a private neutral bathroom is a better option.

[–]Arizth -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Women can't be men, no matter what they "identify" as. The definition of a man is "adult human male", the same way "woman" means "adult human female".

Definitions are critical, and must not be infringed to cater to people suffering from mental and emotional disorders. People are not an amorphous blob of "peopleness" with sprinkles of adjectives that you can partition out as you please. They have distinct qualities that make them differ on fundamental levels, and one of those is basic biology.

[–]reverbiscrap 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't disagree, but understand why this conversation is about transwomen, but not transmen.

That is what misandry looks like, how insidious and UNQUESTIONED it is.

[–]Arizth 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

but understand why this conversation is about transwomen, but not transmen.

Women have the right not to want men in their spaces, even if they've bolted on fake breasts and out on a wig and makeup.

Same way men have a right not to want women in their spaces, even if they've hacked off their breasts and shaved their heads.

Its not a question misandry or misogyny. It's a question of sex-based rights and responsibilities.

[–]reverbiscrap 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Same way men have a right not to want women in their spaces, even if they've hacked off their breasts and shaved their heads.

And this never, ever happens, because there isn't a low boiling contempt, fear, and hate of women en masse, the way there is for men.

You know what that is called? Misandry, which is the base source the entire conversation.

[–]Arizth 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You realize that most women don't ascribe to the feminist "kill all men" lunacy, right?

You can't let a vocal cabal of crazies convince you that regular, normal people are the enemy.

[–]reverbiscrap 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I implied nothing of the sort.

I'm asserting the generalized fear of, contempt of, and dehumanizing of men is a general attitude by women in the modern West. You can see this the moment you leave the modern West and see how male/female relations absent western sensibilities operate.

[–]pbj_sammichez 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah except the trans folks dont seem to be hurting anyone in bathrooms. Haven't heard a single incident in which a trans person did something like that. The self-styled "family values" republicans seem to have trouble living what they preach, however. Child exploitation, child abuse, rape, prostitution... It seems like the conservatives are struggling to behave, then projecting that onto others. "I have urges to rape children, and I'm a good person! So everyone must want to rape children - especially those bad people!" Then they assume those they find morally repugnant must share their own internal moral repugnance. The problem is that most people aren't just restraining themselves from awful desires - most people just don't have the desires. Conservatives seem to be showing their predilections with every accusation they make.

[–]MezzaCorux 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It isn’t the trans people that are the problem, it’s the people who take advantage of the system. Predators who hide behind the trans label and use it as a shield in order to target people. And the longer the issue goes unaddressed the more regular people will associate trans people with those bad people. Taking reasonable precautions is a good start against that. Also both political parties are equally guilty of the issues you listed and pretending that it is just one side engaging is unhelpful.

[+]agenericusername9 -6 points-5 points-4 points 3 years ago (123 children) | Copy Link

They are TERF’s dude. They believe trans women aren’t women because they were born male appearing.

[–]MezzaCorux 16 points17 points18 points 3 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

A very reductive look at it. Some of them are but not all of them. You’re also doing what radical feminists do and labeling every person that doesn’t 100% agree with you as this bad evil thing. Got a man who doesn’t agree with radical feminism? Oh he must hate women.

[+]agenericusername9 -6 points-5 points-4 points 3 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

TERF /tərf/ noun a feminist who excludes the rights of transgender women from their advocacy of women's rights.

Not all feminists are TERF’s but all TERF’s are feminists by default. Square is a rectangle but rectangle is not a square. Please look things up that you very obviously don’t understand.

[–]MezzaCorux 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Last I checked picking and choosing what bathroom to use wasn’t a right.

[–]pbj_sammichez 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's called privacy. Privacy is a right. The US Bill of Rights makes several efforts to protect the privacy of citizens from undue scrutiny (otherwise known as unlawful searches). What, you want some kind of publicly-appointed genital inspector to stand at the bathroom door? When there are waves of trans people assaulting people in bathrooms, call me. Until then, pull your head out of the asshole of the evangelical movement.

You know, it's a shame the evangelicals don't have glass belly buttons - if they did, then when you have your head up their asses, you could look out and see what the rest of us are doing.

[–]MezzaCorux 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Then I should have the right to my own private bathroom at all times. And it’s not trans people doing assaults, it’s regular predators using the trans movement as a shield to commit bad acts.

[–]agenericusername9 -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Good thing there’s unisex bathrooms to help offset that issue. It’s also a good thing walking into washrooms and checking what’s in people’s pants is a sex crime. The only time it should matter is if someone is abusing the privilege that comes with identifying as transgender.

[–]MezzaCorux 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I do think having a private unisex bathroom is the solution. And unfortunately people do pretend to be transgender to gain access to bathrooms. And if they can pass really well then it really isn’t an issue. I’m talking about the guys who are clearly guys (maybe with the bare minimum effort of femininity) in order to gain access that aren’t actually transgender but using the label to get away with predatory behavior.

[–]agenericusername9 -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

And that’s a fair criticism I never had an issue with criticizing those who abuse these privileges. Just don’t box them in with everyone else. Keep in mind feminists box us in with rapists and serial killers so why do that to others?

[–]MezzaCorux 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree to not conflate predators with regular trans people but the issue with the bathroom thing is you’re introducing unnecessary risk just so less than 1% of the population feels a little more comfortable. And I think it’s not unreasonable to say that such accommodations to trans people aren’t worth the increased risk of predatory behavior from those that would take advantage of the accommodation.

[–]agenericusername9 -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Again, which is why unisex bathrooms should be more normal so less of that predatory behaviour happens.

[–]pbj_sammichez -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Dunno who is downvoting you - youre right. Literally putting the meaning of the term in the faces of conservatives is enough to make them flip out. What happened to "facts dont care about your feelings" and all that tough shit? Fucking snowflakes and their illogical, backwards thinking, empty-headed groupthink. Get out of the men's rights movement. I don't want to stand alongside the hypocritical american "Christians" who cant be bothered to follow a single one of the lessons handed down by their literal god incarnate. That's why I left the church. Half-assed Christian hypocrites.

[–]agenericusername9 -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No need to be mad. “Don’t be angry with them for they know not of what they do.” This saying applies here, mainly because most have a basic understanding of these things. It’s fine they’re more mad I’m telling them don’t generalize and stop saying shit about sex and transgenderism because they have fuck all clue the factors that contribute to sex.

It’s nothing unusual the understanding of sex and gender is very misunderstood. I don’t mind being downvoted either it’s an articulation of their ideologies and shows how while feminists not correct in what MRA’s are, only solidifies that those men who are upset about these things I’ve said have become the very things they hate. (Which proves a lot of feminists right) it’s again fine because in the end all it does is hurt all of us.

[–]pbj_sammichez -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, that's the definition. TERFs want equality (I.e. special treatment) ONLY for those whose genes contain two X-chromosomes, who are born with a vagina, and who continue to have a vagina. Do you not know what the acronym stands for? It's pretty self-explanatory.

[–]Francis_Dollar_Hide 7 points8 points9 points 3 years ago (108 children) | Copy Link

And they would be correct.

[+]agenericusername9 -22 points-21 points-20 points 3 years ago (107 children) | Copy Link

Fuck out of here. No tolerance for intolerance. Transwomen are women transmen are men end of story.

[–]DemSocRobot 17 points18 points19 points 3 years ago (78 children) | Copy Link

You sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "trans women are women" doesn't make it true just FYI. Most people on the right and left disagree with that narrative.

[–]Sarin03 -5 points-4 points-3 points 3 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link

Science supports trans people, idiots don't. We especially should know that MAJORITY RULE ISN'T ALWAYS FUCKING CORRECT. We want equality, true equality, or were no better than the rad fems.

[–]agenericusername9 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

They won’t listen. I’m pretty sure these are the MGTOW losers that people were speaking of. Redpill ideology is a fucking cancer just as feminism is. It’s always been anti science and has no place in most debates because of it.

They don’t understand the factors that contribute to sex, they then also dismiss intersex as a legitimate defence to why we don’t have just 2 sex’ because “it’s a statistical anomaly” even though entire species have their reproductive systems are hermaphroditic. To insist that it’s “anomalous” is the demonstration of their lack of information and myopic view point. Also don’t realize sex isn’t considered by 1 factor that’s the entire reason why we have 4 sexes. Male, female, intersex and asexual (lack of any and all sexual organs characteristics etc) they also don’t get biology isn’t perfect and also don’t realize when I say “human bodies are fluid” it’s because we understand them to be, since everyone has nipples cause initially we are conceived female. If flipping sexes isn’t possible there should be no men born. Unless of course hormonal balance has a lot to do with how our sex is determined but that would play right back into human bodies being fluid.

[–]AkumaSeijinn -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You can't use an entirely different species as proof of human biology lmao. Jesus. I guess cause Kangaroos have pouches it would be totally healthy for a human to cut a pouch into their flesh. That's a horrible take.

[–]agenericusername9 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They said science doesn’t support it, but it does. All humans start out F, if sex was determined by only a few factors you’d still be Female. But it isn’t because the presence of the Y chromosome influences the hormones that will be present in the fetus’ development while in vitro.

I mention other animals to show that it’s not unnatural, this stuff legitimately happens and humans being a relatively young species means we have no idea what’s in store for our species and biology.

[–]DemSocRobot 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

No, some scientists PANDER to trans people. Not the same thing. Here in the next 5 years or so when theirs a wave of detrans people talking about the unethical medical practices they endured you're going to feel real guilty for pushing a harmful narrative. Yall are no diff than the fat activists that push anti science rhetoric.

[–]agenericusername9 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

Bad medical practices = trans people bad? Do y’all not know how to criticize something without also spreading misinformation and hate or is that the default?

Also scientists didn’t pander. Zoologists took first notice in nature and we understood biology and sex isn’t as simple as first thought it was.

https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=scholar+articles+on+transgenderism&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&t=1667997775485&u=%23p%3DvcjajiIz7W0J

Like shit like this shouldn’t be possible if our bodies couldn’t tolerate it. There are risks (as anything) but yet people can reproduce while transgender….

Something doesn’t line up here because even in the article they talk about how dangerous it is and even explicitly say in the abstract “patients should be informed about all risks.” I fail to see the danger.

I only see danger with people bandwagoning transgenderism and regretting it, I see people abusing the privileges that come with being trans but the doctors? That’s scraping the bottom of the barrel. Again, you wanna criticize transgenderism go ahead but denying people are or aren’t a sex is beyond simplistic and you’re no better than the Feminists in this article.

[–]DemSocRobot 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link

TransMeds are valid, but sadly theyve been cast out of their own community for speaking out against trenders. Gender dysphoria is valid, but highly rare in society. Much rarer than current trans ideology would suggest. And you talk like taking hormones or puberty blockers doesn't have permanent life altering affects. A lot of which, like ovarian cysts, high blood pressure, etc have long lasting health ramifications.

Don't even get me started on neopronouns and xenogenders, but thats mostly just childish teen stuff so they get a pass. All of us were dumb as kids.

[–]agenericusername9 -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

Okay then crticize the LGTBQ community. I don’t care. My issue is you like others are generalizing. Yes gender dysmorphia is rare no issue with that, it’s very very rare. Estrogen isn’t carcinogenic but the method of delivery might be. Again you can criticize this shit all you want, any of it because there are a lot of valid criticisms BUT GENERALIZING IS BAD. Ffs.

A lot of xenogenders are DID fakers so ignore them.

[–]Sarin03 -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Dude, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, at all. 1. Being trans isn't a fucking biological condition, there is no "transmeds" its a psychological effect caused by having a gender that conflicts with your sex. 2. Hormones do have life altering effects, thats half the fucking point, we wouldn't be taking them if they were fucking temporary now would we? And the side effects aren't hidden jackass, you're made well aware of them long before you get on any medication. Most of the side effects are...say it with me!..RARE. Any medication has side effects, many of which are a hell of a lot worse than blood pressure shifts! 3. You don't understand xenogenders, I don't much either but I at least know the basics. They're for NEURALY DIVERGENT people that can't associate with humanity. 4. Fuck off, stop spreading hate for no reason.

[–]agenericusername9 -5 points-4 points-3 points 3 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

Human bodies are pretty fluid dude. That’s why you, a dude, can grow breasts if exposed to estrogen.

Breasts are secondary characteristics. But still emphasize the point.

[–]DemSocRobot 18 points19 points20 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[ Removed by Reddit ]

[–]agenericusername9 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Intersex people exist BECAUSE biology isn’t perfect. So to insist you know people’s karotypes, horomonal balance and everything else that contributes to sex, without seeing their biology, then hate to break it to you dude. But you’re just a transphobe.

I get what people talk about now when they talk about mra’s being a place for redpills.

[–]DemSocRobot 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually not an MRA, just a normal leftist here who happened to come across this while looking up female erasure. And sure biology isn't perfect, except for the fact that people are either biologically male or female 99.98% of the time. Yea that crazy biology is so out of whack lmao. Most of GenZ and A have just been lied to that if you don't fit a gender stereotype or don't like your body you must be trans....except most people feel like that. I just don't understand how before this stereotypes were only used by bigots but just recently the new generations embraced them in a way that's homophobic, authoritarian, misogynistic and so on. Even kicking out the actual people with gender disphoria for going against the trendy narrative. There is going to be a massive detrans wave coming and hopefully most of then get out relatively unscathed.

[–]jacofan12 7 points8 points9 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

They really aren’t on a Gamete level.

[–]agenericusername9 -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Gamete’s aren’t the only factor for sex.

[–]jacofan12 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Uh, yes they are. In all mammals. They are the only factor in fact. They are not the only factor for gender if that’s what you mean.

[–]agenericusername9 -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s a primary factor for sex, not gender. We aren’t speaking about gender because gender is not well defined. Sex is the biology.

And no, there are multiple factors for sex otherwise men who are infertile and women who are infertile aren’t technically men or women. Since they don’t have the gametes for their sex. That’s kinda the issue with just loosely defining people as a sex off of 1 or 2 factors. Not everyone who is biologically that sex HAS all the criteria. Mammals have a few criteria: hormones since exposure literally alters biology, gametes like you mentioned, primary and secondary sex characteristics, and chromosomal make up. Not all line up and point to 1 sex which is why being black and white and allowing for no variance is not only excluding large portions of biologic men but also undermines these men and women despite not having all the infer-structure there.

[–]TFME1 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

Show me a Trans-Woman who can carry a fetus to term in "her" uterus. Or a Trans-Man who can produce and ejaculate semen out of the Meatus of "his" penis. You GTFOH. Moron. You bought into some bs that some moron spouted and now you're regurgitating it like it's "always been true". It's never been true and you're just the latest moron to promulgate the fad.

[–]agenericusername9 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

I can show you transmen with functional penis’. Can’t show the reverse. I have men trans people who CAN ejaculate.

It has always been true. We see this shit even in nature. Denying it is denying reality. You have nipples for a reason dude.

[–]TFME1 -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

Congratulations on graduating Kindergarten Biology, moron. However, you're moronic take isn't an "empirical" take, soooo...

[–]agenericusername9 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

My take is to show that being binary about what “counts” is a piss poor attitude and extremely bigoted. There’s more factors for sex than people give credence too and hormones are 1 of them. Women can grow a penis with exposure to testosterone.

I said our bodies are fluid someone denied that, my mentioning all people start out as Female demonstrates that point because UNTIL testosterone and the Y chromosome are exposed to the fetus the child will be female.

[–]Sarin03 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Are you stupid or something??? Trans man means a woman who transitioned into a man, they are literally proving you completely wrong yet you can't even understand it.

[–]Greg_W_Allan 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Human bodies are pretty fluid dude.

No, they are not. Have as many sex change ops as you wish but when archeologists examine any tissue or skeletal remains in a thousand years time you will be identified based on your birth sex.

[–]agenericusername9 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Being identified off your birth sex for skeletal remains is something that even archaeologists know isn’t always reliable. Again different factor contribute to sex. I don’t know why you guys have issues with this shit science doesn’t agree with your viewpoints we now see animals that can transition so to say our bodies can’t do that when exposure to test in a woman actually elongates her clit, and exposure to estrogen in a man not only allows him to grow breasts BUT PRODUCE MILK that’s kinda the thing. If our bodies aren’t fluid there’s no way that’s possible. There’s no way any of the hormonal balances would affect your body in anyway if they aren’t. But they do because biology isn’t rigid, it isn’t black and white and it isn’t simplistic.

[–]Francis_Dollar_Hide 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

OK. So, for context, I used to share a house with a fully post op F2M trans person. That person is my friend. I was happy to use their preferred pronouns. What I'm not happy to do is deny scientific fact, thats ideological nonsense. It's not intolerant, it's reality.

So, let's test your ideology shall we?
Should F2 M trans people be eligible for the draft?

Incidentally, my friend is now transitioning back to identifying as Female. I'd love to hear your label of them now. Tans woman, post trans man, just woman?

[–]Reddit-person-321 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Every able bodied adult should be eligible for the draft. Either that or get rid of it entirely.

[–]Francis_Dollar_Hide 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree with your latter position.

[–]ApprehensiveMail8 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

For clarity, when people say they suport "getting rid of the draft" I always wonder; do you really support using a variety of inconsistent, ad hoc methods to select men for conscription (which is what we actually had before the draft)? Or is it just wishful thinking?

[–]Sarin03 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

We label them as a detransitioner. A very rare case of a cis person mistaking themselves for being trans.

[–]agenericusername9 -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Context doesn’t justify saying that. Biologically it isn’t as simple as you’re making it but you’re not denying scientific fact. Science recognizes how these people’s biology does reflect how they feel in a lot of genuine instances.

Anyone should be drafted, so I don’t see how that’s a “test” lol.

If transitioning back, just woman. Though I’m curious the reasons as to why they are transitioning back.

[–]Francis_Dollar_Hide 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Of course it does, you accused me of being intolerant, I'm not.
You realize a large contingent of the trans community agrees with my position, right? Happy to use your preferred pronouns, but I'm not happy that trans women have raped women in jail, or entered female only spaces and put them at risk because of your ideology.

[–]agenericusername9 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It isn’t “I’m putting people at risk” with my ideology. You can criticize individuals who do that. Notice how I didn’t say anything about that to the OP. It’s because he is right and so are you, yes people abuse this but denying it across the board might not be helpful, it should remain with the choice of the person. Because let’s also be real about how in reverse it happens too with F2M being abused in male spaces. But we know how people 100000% abuse the privileges of it this is why we can scrutinize those that do.

[–]pyrolover6666 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Fuck out of here. Sexist cultists aren't welcome here.

[–]agenericusername9 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Lol When did accepting trans people become “sexist cultist.” What’s your issue?

[–]pyrolover6666 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

They enforce sexist sterotypes they claim to hate

[–]agenericusername9 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

So you hate trans people because you’re generalizing. Weird I swear the OP was telling me how generalizing was bad when I didn’t generalize….

[–]pyrolover6666 -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's not a generalization. Gender is nothing more than sexist sterotypes. Gender is in the name

[–]agenericusername9 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That’s gender. I’m not speaking gender I’m talking sex. You wanna criticize the LGTBQ community for enforcing stereotypes that’s fine. But yes you are generalizing as are a couple others.

[–]jackgranger99 -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Transwomen are women transmen are men

The thing is, nah

[–]agenericusername9 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

I’ve been citing scholar sites. Not youtube. Poor source go find another.

[–]KochiraJin 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You should watch the video. It's less about science and more about how woman is defined and the implications of the various definitions that have been put forward by the trans advocates. You don't need to be a scientist to discuss that. Besides, the scholarly sources on trans people are often terrible and sometimes immoral. You should be looking at them with a lot of skepticism.

[–]agenericusername9 -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Here’s the issue with any definition we put forward regardless how air tight we think it is: it’s not 100%. And sex is one of those things that’s multifaceted. So going “well a woman who’s born as a woman is legitimate” it dismisses anyone who’s born outside that realm, as intersex or asexual (lack of organs and genes not the orientation)(mind you a lot of intersex people are put in male or female boxes to make their lives easier) If you go, “okay well a woman is someone who produces eggs” then infertile women are technically not women since they’re infertile. If you go “okay well a woman has to be born as a woman and produce the appropriate gametes” it still doesn’t apply 100%. That’s the thing to go “oh well trans women aren’t women” when any definition you put forward won’t incorporate 100% of all woman who were born as woman, then how can you determine who is and who isn’t? It’s case by case and that’s really hard to police because then definitions have more subjectivity than objectivity meaning there’s no single definition. So to go “trans women aren’t women” is stupid. You wanna say they are true biological women well, again definitions and pedantic crap. My point is to show how complex this is, the video is a crash course it’s stuff I know and learned about when dissecting sex in classes but it’s hardly the full picture. There are so many different variations and it’s constantly changing, to imply we understand it is more fallacious than anything you or I can say. I’m talking purely about the science I’ve said this. That’s why I used scholar sites. But dismissing people because you don’t agree with whatever shit s group does, is kinda how the Nazi’s convinced people to allow the jews to be killed en masse, it’s dehumanizing to anyone who identifies as that.

[–]DemSocRobot 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

A woman Is a woman. An intersex person is intersex. You're overcomplicating it for what? To feel like you have some deeper understanding? You don't.

[–]jackgranger99 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This dude really thinks "overly complex" and "needlessly convoluted" is the same thing.

[–]KochiraJin 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are so many different variations and it’s constantly changing, to imply we understand it is more fallacious than anything you or I can say.

There are only two gametes which kinda limits the number of variations available. It's also not constantly changing, sexual reproduction has existed in this form far longer than humans have. The problem you are running into is that you want everyone to be what they identify as but also retain the meaning of those identities. Which is impossible. That's why you don't understand.

I’m talking purely about the science I’ve said this. That’s why I used scholar sites.

And I'll reiterate, a lot of the scientific work done on the subject of transgender people is crap. Most of it is based on surveys with no control group and there is very little work on long term outlook.The journals will happily publish made up science if it follows their ideology. This isn't a field where you can blindly trust just because it was written in a scientific journal.

But dismissing people because you don’t agree with whatever shit s group does, is kinda how the Nazi’s convinced people to allow the jews to be killed en masse, it’s dehumanizing to anyone who identifies as that.

Not agreeing with people makes you you a Nazi now? I don't think you have an accurate view of Nazi ideology.

[–]jackgranger99 -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Classic Appeal to Authority in action, not an argument.

[–]agenericusername9 -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Poor sources is an appeal to authority and not trying to limit bias? Any other emotional argument you want to make or do you have an actual point?

[–]jackgranger99 -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Poor sources is an appeal to authority

Uh-

I’ve been citing scholar sites. Not youtube

The Appeal to Authority was when you immediately turned down my argument on the basis of the source and upheld your own because scholars said so. You haven't actually dismantled anything. Also-

do you have an actual point?

I have a point. The notion that "trans women are women" is ludicrous. I then provided you a detailed video explaining as such and you immediately pulled an "Appeal to Authority" Fallacy rather than addressing the argument at hand

[–]agenericusername9 -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I don’t know if you know this but anyone can post to youtube. Do you not understand what bias is? Scholar sites help limit bias that’s the thing I said so it isn’t fallacious. The fact you cut that part out to go “oh well it’s fallacious” even though limiting bias it an entirely valid reason to dismiss a source then I guess you can use fox news to source sites then too! Since wanting to limit bias is apparently a fallacy.

[–]BungyStudios -5 points-4 points-3 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Why should bathrooms be sex segregated at all? It's illogical unless some form of implicit sexism is involved.

[–]MezzaCorux 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Not sure how separate bathrooms are sexist, but I know personally I would be uncomfortable sharing a restroom with a bunch of women. I guess I’d need some explanation as to how having separate bathrooms are harmful or discriminatory.

[–]BungyStudios -5 points-4 points-3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because by virtue of segregating based on someone's sex. You're by definition discriminating based on someone's immutable characteristics.

[–]ApprehensiveMail8 -4 points-3 points-2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Just like I wouldn’t want malicious women to say they identify as male to enter appropriately male only spaces and sexually assault and/or harass men.

Why on earth would a woman identify as male if her plan was to sexually assault or harass men?

[–]MezzaCorux 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

To enter a male restroom/locker room. It’s unlikely but it’s just as equally wrong.

[–]ApprehensiveMail8 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think it's that unlikely that a woman would try to sexually assault a man in a public restroom or anywhere else. I just don't see why she would need to dress up like a man to enter the men's restroom. She could just walk in their dressed like a woman and people would be a lot less suspicious.

[–]MezzaCorux 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I’d be suspicious.

[–]3DemocracyActivist 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I respect your opinion because you acknowledged that biological females can assault biological males as well as vice versa. However I will respectfully disagree and this is why: biological males can assault biological males, biological females can assault biological females, biological males can assault biological females, and biological females can assault biological males. Everyone can be a danger to everyone.

For example, if they're going to ban trans women from womens prison who have committed crimes against biological females, then what about biological females that are in prison for killing or abusing biological females? Are they going to ban them from the women's prison too? 🤔 🤷 Surely non trans women who have killed and abused non trans women, are no less of a danger to non trans women than any trans women? And surely non trans men who have killed and abused non trans men are no less of a danger to non trans men than any trans men?

So if a biological female is in prison for killing biological males or committing other crimes against biological males, but decides she wants to identify as a man and wants to go to the men's prison instead of the women's, I think he should be allowed to do that, because biological males who have killed men aren't banned from mens prisons, same in reverse, biological females who have killed or committed other crimes against women aren't banned from the women's prison, so if a biological male has killed or committed other crimes against women and decides he wants to identify as woman and go to the women's prison instead, I think she should be allowed to do that. I think you'll find that some women don't have a problem with being around trans women anyway, and some men don't have a problem with being around trans men.

Ultimately gender segregation in my opinion should be voluntary and not government enforced anyway, and then this debate wouldn't even need to exist in the first place.

People who don't want to use a mixed toilet, should be given a private toilet, people who don't want to be in a mixed changing room should be given a private changing room, people who don't want to be in a mixed prison should be given a private cell. At the end of the day as far as I'm concerned it should be considered a human rights violation to forcibly segregate males and females anyway, it's one thing for a person to willingly segregate themselves, it's another thing for the government to forcibly dictate segregation, and as far as I'm concerned that should be considered a mens and womens rights violation, I'm very confident that many male and female prisoners would agree with me. I think you'll find that some women who are forcibly segregated from men in prison would prefer to be in a mixed prison and vice versa. If people are given a choice between a private area and a mixed area then surely that's better for everyone and everyone would have more freedom and rights and better access to privacy as a result of it?

The only people who would lose, would be dictatorial people who want to tell men and women that they're not allowed to be around eachother. Men and women shouldn't be forced to be around eachother, and they shouldn't be forcibly segregated either. My system solves all these issues because it allows the individual to voluntarily segregate themselves.

Personally I'd prefer to have a single celled changing room, a single celled toilet, and in prison I'd prefer it to be mixed, with the option to go to my own cell if I don't want to be around other people, and let in my cell only who I choose to give permission to enter, and for all other male and female prisoners to have the same right to segregate themselves voluntarily.

If everyone had those rights, people would surely have more rights and much better rights for both men and women?

I support people's right to choose, my human rights model actually gives people more right to privacy than they currently have, it just makes it optional based on the decision of the individual, instead of the dictation of the government.

[–]coolboy_24278 8 points9 points10 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

their cognitive dissonance at full display

[–]_BlueShark87 12 points13 points14 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

They dislike men infiltrating their club with all the power.

[–]BungyStudios -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They hate being on an equal playing ground and being put in their place.

[–]secularbuddha89 18 points19 points20 points 3 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Do you really believe that? Or could it be true that feminists still are a group of individual peopl,, who may or may not believe a Trans woman is a real woman. But I do agree feminist as a whole tend to want their cake and eat it too.

[–]Candid-Dish-4415 12 points13 points14 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I agree with this sentiment. If a woman transitions to be a man and then wants to say she experiences male specific issues though its anatomically impossible id be upset.

[–]w_cruice 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

No, that's been reported on, actually, in social meanings - not physical, i.e., penis issues, but socially, yes, FTMs have reported on how their social status changed. So, come out as Bi, you go gurl! Lesbian, Yas, You GO Grrl! Trans, YAS, QUEEN! And then they transition, and it's, STFU AND AIT THE F DOWN, YOU MAN!

Buck Angel is one who has talked about this, but not the only one.

[–]greysterguy 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was about to say. I can't claim to have experienced specifically sex-related issues, (like, I never had to worry about circumcision on my nonexistent penis) but I live my everyday life as a man, in the general public's eyes I am a man, and it has led to worse treatment than I'd ever experienced living as a woman.

[–]secularbuddha89 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

My guy - are you trans?

[–]greysterguy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah

[–]secularbuddha89 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Welcome. Be cool to hear your experience sometime!

[–]greysterguy 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks!

[–]Sweddybob69 6 points7 points8 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Personally I'm loving all of this. It's like watching an army of ants in a death spiral running around the hill of oppression. Absolutely desperate to claim the moral high ground but getting pulled back down everytime they get any leverage.

[–]Bubbly_Loquat7730 5 points6 points7 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah, feminists are terrible because they’re fine being pieces of shit to males until they “identify as a woman” and then all of a sudden they’re fine with it. Shows how disgusting they are. TERFS are consistent at least

[–]DemSocRobot 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They deserve their own space away from biological men.

[–]IllustraSeris 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol, trans people and gay men are MRA's best allies

[–]BungyStudios 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not only men's rights are being targeted, all males' rights are.

Feminists see the state of being male as a disease - rapists until proven innocent, whether or not you're a man or a trans-woman, they want you dead and enslaved.

They will call you toxically masculine, and will then turn and humiliate you into dying in an anti-male genocide known as war.

[–]Notdeadsleepy1 points 3 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

The only brand of feminism I agree with is when they clash with queers.

Rainbow ideology is an absolute trash ideology that should be forgotten. In a couple of years we will have lots of teenagers regretting they chopped their breasts or took hormones so long its irreversable

[–]DemSocRobot 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As a leftist I agree that trans ideology is out of control. They even kicked out the gays that don't agree with them. R/askgaybros absolutely hates them.

[–]StevenTheWicked 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Its a select club for women not men.

[–]Sweaty-Landscape1112 -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Mens rights unlike feminist arent tphobic. Cause were not mad when women are treated like men

[+]SadGruffman -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As has been said many, many times, feminism is split by Terfs (trans exclusionary radical feminists) and just “feminists” who really just want fair wages and rights like the rest of us enjoy.

Trans women are women and ofc they are valid. Trans men are too.

World really needs to stop drawing lines in the sand over bullshit that nobody really cares about.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Where was this sign placed

[–]Zedowskyy -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Popping in to remind yall that Coco Chanel, THE feminist icon was a nazi sympathizer. When nazi germans came she to asure her safety looked around where are all importants in her area and slept with them ALL.

[–]Proof-Examination574 -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminism started out as a terrorist organization burning down and bombing buildings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette\_bombing\_and\_arson\_campaign

[–]3DemocracyActivist -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I am an MRA but I will say that not all feminists are anti trans. Sturgeon (leader of SNP in Scotland) is a self described feminist and has definitely supported trans rights:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/02/protesters-against-transgender-rights-changes-boo-nicola-sturgeon

I personally don't call myself an anti feminist, I just call myself an anti misandrist. SNP is by far the best political party in the "U"K as far as I'm concerned, Scotland's law actually has far better rights for men than any other part of the "U"K, and far better rights for everyone actually. Both men and women have better rights in Scotland than they have in England, and the leader of Scotland is a feminist. So there is some feminists who I agree with on some things and that's why I don't call myself an anti feminist.

[–]Black-Patrick -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah.

[+]AMerryKa -9 points-8 points-7 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Stop. Generalizing.

I'M a feminist, and I passionately support LGBTQ rights, therefore feminists support trans women, that's why we call them "T.E.R.F.s" instead of feminists.

[–]_Denzo 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Good job that in my country this is illegal

[–]Throw_awayyerr 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ngl if I saw this whoever made this I would’ve associated them with the KKK

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