What exactly is society's hesitation in speaking of men as having inherent worth?

Maffioze · 2022-11-19T20:07:19+00:00

Yeah somehow advocating for myself continues to feel "cringe" to me even though I know it rationally doesn't make sense. I mean we are men right? We live to serve others, like a tool.

Practical_One_265 · 2022-11-19T18:20:56+00:00

The same thing happens to me, men seem to have no value in this society, for example during this day being the international men's day, the few international organisations that remembered it, criticised men, and the ways we harm society. No comment on the real problems of men as that automatically leads to thinking about women or some minority. I even commented to a colleague at work about Men's day and he said it was stupid, women will always be more valuable unfortunately.

Tinfoil_Haberdashery · 2022-11-20T01:15:48+00:00

Men are required to earn worth based on what they produce. If they were accorded worth separate from that, they might not be as driven to be productive, and those who profit from that productivity would profit less.

I think this is a huge reason society is less accepting of effeminate men and mtf trans people than masculine women or ftm trans people; if someone percieved as female behaves in a masculine way, it's percieved as opting to earn worth over and above that which is implicitly accorded for being female; if someone percieved as male behaves in a feminine way, it is seen as an attempted appropriation of unearned worth by someone who would otherwise not be accorded any.

International_Crew89 · 2022-11-19T21:14:26+00:00

You hit the nail on the head with disposability. Add to that genuine toxic masculinity ("I can't talk about my problems because that wouldn't be manly in front of other men"), toxic femininity ("I can't talk about my problems because anytime I have, women have lost all interest in romance/intimacy/sexuality or even friendship with me when I do"), and internalized misandry ("I can't talk about my problems because women tell me my problems are inconsequential compared to thiers, and therefore my problems aren't really problems"). Unfortunately, all of these elements overlap and there is significant inter-play between them; so it's really fucking hard to disentangle them and recognize and/or address/remediate each of these issues individually.

thithothith · 2022-11-19T20:07:59+00:00

reading the 'consequences' section of the paternity fraud wikipedia page

Hm.. don't know what you mean..

hshsgdve · 2022-11-20T01:48:46+00:00

Historical reason:

If women allowed men to see themselves as having inherent value, they wouldn’t be safe. As men depended on the physical prowess, women depended on desirability and psychological control of men to be in service of their safety. This is why being sexually rejected by a man, even one she doesn’t really want, is terrifying for young women. It represents that she is vulnerable, but not perfectly protected. Understandably terrifying.

Modern heightening of this:

Feminism has coached a huge number of women towards narcissism. Most young men who have been dumped will have felt this… regardless of its accuracy, many young women will coach the woman who has broken up to hurt the young man deliberately, so that she might feel better. It’s the underlying principle of misandry. Men are bad, he did bad, sentence him. Where their used to be at least guilt and shame felt by doing bad things to others, or not living up to the social contract, ”empowerment” has just become a way to remove empathetic conduct and not feel guilt or shame.

RockmanXX · 2022-11-20T00:39:01+00:00

What exactly is society's hesitation in speaking of men as having inherent worth?

Apathy, people may think that misandry is the worst but its apathy for Men's Suffering that's the real problem. I have zero hesitation in standing up for myself&what i believe in, that's masculinity 101 for me.

and very tempted to try to connect them to some other negative consequence

I also do it, but only to rub it in people's faces for ex:-

"Look, this is what happens when Society ignores Men's Issues, Nobody Wins! Every Man on earth is someone's son/brother/friend/husband. And, if you're a man, you're going to suffer from Men's Issues too. By all means, call me an Incel Alt Righter to your heart's content, i'll have the last laugh!"

Maldevinine · 2022-11-19T22:53:57+00:00

Something the whole movement (us and Feminism) does very badly is ask "why gender roles?" Because if we did, we would discover that a lot of the rhetoric about destroying gender roles is completely useless. Those roles are the only reason we as a culture exist. They are Production Maximisation Systems. They don't maximise happiness, or self-actualisation, or health. They maximise the number of surviving grandchildren. Societies that do not maximise this get outcompeted by those that do.

Now there's been some big changes to this with industrialisation and the knowledge economy, but there still exists things that Must Be Done for society to continue, and so society will implement systems to ensure those things get done. Gender Roles are one of those systems.

ArmchairDesease · 2022-11-20T19:12:16+00:00

A strange sense of cringe prevents people from focusing on men's issues as "THE MAIN THING". They are always treated as a footnote or, as you say, as something related to some other issue.

To make a real life example: the other day I was discussing the topic of Paternity Leave with a friend.

At some point, I managed to sneak in the observation that "it would be good for fathers too, helping them form a stronger bond with their kids". Because up until that moment we had only commented on it as a tool for women's relief from the burdens of motherhood. My friend agreed, but the conversation naturally ended there.

To me, the implications on men's well-being are a primary concern. I believe that the expectation of being the family "money-maker" contributes a lot to men's unfulfillment and unhappiness, in terms of stress and alienation from family and friends. And I see paternity leave as a possible step in the right direction.

But despite that, for some reason, I felt compelled to touch these implications only as a quick side note. I felt that showing my friend that I cared "too much" about the men's side of the coin would have lead the conversation into unconfortable territories.

Also, I tought that putting too much emphasis on men would make me appear as selfish, being a male talking about male issues. Which doesn't make any sense at all, since my friend was having no trouble at all showing how personally affected she is by the women's side of the issue.

NeoTrafalgar · 2022-11-21T11:58:34+00:00

Isn't it because a lot of what is perceived as inherit male worth is harmful and it being inherit is used as a way to defend it by the right. Naturalist arguments seem childish to me. We are aware of anything inherit and can change it so does it matter if it's inherit really?

hotpotato138 · 2022-11-21T21:07:47+00:00

I haven't talked to anyone about male issues in person. Misandry is a lot more prevalent in society.

Ausiwandilaz · 2022-11-26T11:55:39+00:00

I myself go home and overthink, drink myself to death.

I have been dealt a tough slapping hand in the work place, and now that there is no one to lead I step up to the plate, and I am extremely respected by co-workers for it.

How ever after 20 years of being ridiculed, shamed, put down, I just want to die, slowly.

My inherent worth was my hard work, but as a millenial I found out hard work(working for a company) does not = success, kiss ass does. Can I stop not working hard, NO, because that is how I am wired. Now like me there are many to come, but our inherent worth is to be the same thing feminist hate the great and gone "Patriarchy". So unless we stop with the prejudice of "patriarchy" women will never find their worth or ambition either.

Title	What exactly is society's hesitation in speaking of men as having inherent worth?
Author	senove2900
Upvotes	119
Comments	43
Date	November 19, 2022 4:38 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/yzg07i/what_exactly_is_societys_hesitation_in_speaking/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/what-exactly-is-societys-hesitation-in-speaking-of.1140995 https://theredarchive.com/post/1140995

Comments