A row of boys lying on newsprint-covered tables howl in pain and grit their teeth as part of "circumcision season" in the Philippines begins

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[–]Ceigeee 19 points20 points21 points 3 years ago (53 children) | Copy Link

I was playing League with my friend last night and it came up in conversation that when he was 9, his dad had him circumcised. He remembers it, he was awake and he literally remembers the injection into his penis (I assume this was a numbing agent). He is Phillipino.

I went on a LENGTHY rant about how it is genital mutilation. If this was done to a female of any age it would be a heinous crime, and yet this is legal for baby boys and even children that are old enough to remember it?!?! Absolutely DEPLORABLE.

I spoke on how regardless of religious beliefs, hygiene stances, or whatever other reason there may be to mutilate the genitals of a child who CANNOT CONSENT, it should never be seen as okay and it should especially not be legal. The ONLY instance this should be permitted is if it is a medical necessity (such as for treatment of phimosis).

I feel such sorrow for all the baby boys and children that are abused because of their guardians' desire to have them circumcised. I'm pleased people are taking a stance against this absolutely vile culture that has been allowed for far too long.

Sincerely, a woman who will NOT be having her baby boy circumcised.

[+]RealEstate-Guy -19 points-18 points-17 points 3 years ago (52 children) | Copy Link

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[–]HeForeverBleeds 8 points9 points10 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This may surprise you, but the reasons for both MGM and FGM are identical

"Cleanliness." Where FGM is practiced, it's because they believe it's cleaner, the same as where MGM is practiced. Some people would rather cut off their children's body parts than clean them
Cosmetics. One of the main reasons people circumcise boys is because they believe the natural penis is "ugly," hence the shaming about having an "anteater" or "elephant trunk" dick. Not for health reasons, but because some adults want their young son's genitals to be more sexually attractive to them
Tradition. Where FGM is common, it's mainly circumcised mothers encouraging it for their daughters because it was done to them. Same as circumcised men, the majority of circumcised women support and pass down the practice
Sexual control. In the US, MGM was popularized by Dr. John Harvey Kellogg as a way to discourage boys from masturbating, not for health reasons. People made up pseudo "health" reasons to justify the practice, after it became commonplace due to religious and puritan ideas

When you have some free time, I would strongly encourage you to check out this article

[–]RealEstate-Guy -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I’ll check out that article and probably read up on Dr. Kellogg too.

A major difference between FGM and circumcision, seems to be the age at which is is done. Circumcision can be done a day or 2 after birth where FGM isn’t until girls are well within the age of memory and has a lot of risks associated with it. This is not my knowledge, just a quick read up from WebMD.

As a Christian, God had reasons behind everything He ever instructed the Israelites to do. Circumcision was a form of covenant between God and the Israelites as a sign of being His chosen people. He gave no such command for women.

I think it’s not a coincidence that circumcision has almost no risks, yet FGM can be really fucked up. God wouldn’t tell them to do something that was bad for them. Just like a parent wouldn’t tell their child to drink bleach.

[–]HeForeverBleeds 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Circumcision can be done a day or 2 after birth where FGM isn’t until girls are well within the age of memory

As you see from OP, It's also done to boys when they're old enough to remember as well. Not always, but then it's also not always done to girls when they're old enough to remember either. And anyway, if that's the issue, then it should be okay to cut off girls' prepuce so long they're infants and don't remember it, right?

Not to mention, sexual abuse and mutilation doesn't become okay because a person can't consciously remember the abuse. If I anesthetize my daughter, sexually assault her, surgically remove her eyelids, but by the time she wakes up it's already over and the pain is gone, no one would say that's fine because she's not going to remember the event. She was still assaulted and will forever be missing a functional body part

There's no reason this should be acceptable when it's a mother or father doing it to their young sons

I think it’s not a coincidence that circumcision has almost no risks, yet FGM can be really fucked up

This is a dubious claim. Firstly, there are many forms of female circumcision. Some are more invasive than typical male circumcision, while others are less invasive. You can't make a blanket statement about female circumcision being worse when there are many different kinds, the most common of which are no worse than male circumcision

Secondly, circumcision does not have almost no risk. If I drugged you, put you in a cold bathtub, removed one of your kidneys against your will, sewed you back up, and you survive the process without any long-term harm, I could say that procedure was performed efficiently and with no complications. You would probably not agree that that was an ethical thing for me to do, just because you survived and can still live a normal life

Any circumcision performed on an infant or child when there's no medical need causes harm 100% of the time. Just like all instances of unnecessary medical procedures performed without, it's a violation of a person's right to bodily integrity

[–]Amazing-Bit6140 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]RealEstate-Guy -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Amazing-Bit6140 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You have a nasty habit of trying to make decisions for other people that you have no right to make.

First, you claim you'll decide on your son's behalf what cosmetic and harmful procedures will be performed on his penis without his consent, and now you're claiming you get to decide where i comment!

How about this: I'll comment whereever the goddamnfuck i please, to counter your misinformation and advocations of sexual abuse.

It's also so interesting that i'm more willing to look out for the wellbeing of your potential offspring than you are. Like ffs man, you're not even curious that you might be wrong, in the face of blatant evidence, on a thread of how harmful it is

Edit: Oh and i'm definitely doing to comment elsewhere if you're going to repeat bullshit that i've already disproven in the other thread, like an asshole.

[–]Amazing-Bit6140 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]RealEstate-Guy -3 points-2 points-1 points 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Amazing-Bit6140 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Nobody circumcises baby girls.

that was you, forgot already because it didn't fit your worldview either?

Boys and girls are different.

But the sexual abuse of them is not. Mutilating the genitals of boys is every bit as wrong and harmful as mutilating the genitals of girls.

You can remove a girl's clitoral hood for "hygiene" as that's the same tissue group they remove from boys, but that's a felony in the west.

You really are bending over backwards to pretend this isn't sexual abuse, huh?

The topic of circumcision is exclusively a topic of boys/men

No, you want the topic to be exclusive to boys and men because we have decades of research on girls about how all the benefits were made up and lied about and how much harm it causes. This definitely applies to boys, but your brain can't actually handle being wrong so you've pretended girls are off in their own little sexual abuse world where they are harmed by the same actions that don't harm boys (to you, it's still bumfuck wrong)

[–]Ceigeee 7 points8 points9 points 3 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

I'm very pleased to know that none of you have any problems with the fact you were circumcised as children.

My belief is simply that I find it wrong to perform what is essentially genital mutilation on people that cannot consent (babies and children).

I wouldn't agree with it on a young girl, I wouldn't agree with it on a young boy. I just think it's something that the individual should choose themselves when they are of legal consenting age.

I feel the same about trans surgeries. If a person is an adult and wants to remove their breasts, for example, all the power to them. Live how you're happiest. If the person is underage aka a child, I think it is gross misconduct and should be outlawed.

These are just my opinions. I cannot speak for other people. You and your family agree with circumcision on unconsenting minors, I do not. I'm just very thankful you, your brothers, and your cousins do not feel mistreated regarding the procedure done to you as babies. I'm sure the parents in question are also very thankful they aren't resented for their actions.

Please forgive me if my views are offensive to your family's way of life, it is not my intention.

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[–]Ceigeee 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I'm with you on that stance for sure!

That's why I was SOOO shocked when my friend told me he got circumcised at 9 years old! Like at least as a baby, you have no memory of it whatsoever. A 9-year-old though... Ouch!!! Until last night, and then this post, I didn't actually know it was performed on anyone older than infancy (unless medically necessary in childhood/adulthood).

I don't claim to know any medical science behind the procedure, so although I have read things saying that having it done to a baby can cause issues later in life once the penis has developed properly blabla - I cannot comment on them. And I assume that that instance is a rare occurrence given that (I hope) a professional performs the surgery.

I also agree that male and female anatomy and biology are different, which is the reason I assume circumcision is still widely accepted, even in the Western world, whereas female genital mutilation is not. I know that realistically, the removal of the foreskin does not affect a person in any significant way.

I've read back over my initial comment and it comes across as quite... hostile? In a way? Toward circumcision and I'd like to apologise for that! I will more than likely continue in my belief that I don't find it appropriate, but I will definitely consider people like you and your family if I ever speak on it in future, and will refrain from writing about it in an insensitive way.

Thank you for sharing your experience, and truly I am sorry for not being more understanding initially.

[–]Amazing-Bit6140 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I know that realistically, the removal of the foreskin does not affect a person in any significant way.

You're no advocate for men's rights if you believe something as monumentally batshit insanely stupid as this

You're wrong, and you're encouraging someone to sexually abuse children.

Edit: I can't reply because the planning-to-be-child-sex-abuser blocked me, so i'll answer here:

I'm just saying as far as I know there isn't a massive effect except for the obvious mutilation. Which isn't incorrect?

The only thing that makes that statement correct is the "as far as i know"

Go read my discussion with the other guy, it's actively and very harmful, at any age, but especially to baby boys, leading to hundreds of deaths a year.

How am I encouraging circumcision?

I just told you, by pretending it isn't abjectly harmful. If i strapped you down and cut out all the tissue surrounding your clit until it rubbed directly against any pants or underwear you wear, would you just pop right up after and say "that didn't affect me in any significant way"?

It isn't his fault his parents chose genital mutilation for him as an infant.

But it is his fault that he's planning on doing the same to his children, and he should be held accountable for that.

but here's some data for you, just to bring you up to speed on just how "little" harm it causes:

The Royal Dutch Medical Association (KNMG) notes that many complications of male circumcision are known, including:

infections
bleeding
sepsis
necrosis
fibrosis of the skin
urinary tract infections
meningitis
herpes infections
meatitis
meatal stenosis
necrosis and necrotizing complications
complete amputation of the penis
psychological problems
extreme pain experiences in newborns causing behavioral changes which are still apparent years later

And other academic sources have provided an even more comprehensive outlook on the complications of circumcision including:

"[P]ostcircumcision bleeding in patients with coagulation disorders can be significant and sometimes even fatal. Other serious early complications include:

chordee
iatrogenic hypospadias
glanular necrosis
glanular amputation
epidermal inclusion cysts
suture sinus tracts
chordee
inadequate skin removal resulting in a redundant foreskin
penile adhesions
phimosis
buried penis
urethrocutaneous fistulae
meatitis
and meatal stenosis

Numerous psychological problems have been noted as well. A consensus statement from 38 pediatricians in response to the AAP's report have noted: "circumcision can lead to psychological [and other] problems." And a psychologist at Stoney Brook has also noted:

"The feelings and behaviors my clients experienced fit precisely unto what Herman (1992) called complex posttraumatic stress reaction (p. 121). They are no different from the experience of rape victims, combat veterans, female circumcision victims, and survivors of natural disasters. She also indicated that the common factor underlying the effects of trauma is the experience of violence and powerlessness (p. 33)—made worse if it is inflicted by other human beings in contrast to a natural disaster. Both are dramatically present in the procedure of neonatal circumcision."

[–]Ceigeee 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thankfully my little brother (who was circumcised as a medical necessity due to phimosis) and my best friend who also had it done in childhood for this reason, and the guy my original comment was about who was wrongly made to be circumcised for no good reason apart from his parents wishes at 9 years old - THANK GOODNESS they have not had any problems.

As I have said in many of my comments, I do not claim to know anything about the medical side of the procedure/results of the procedure. I disagree with it on a genital mutilation basis. Regardless of whether it is bad or good for the kid.

The fact is, an infant, a child, cannot consent. This is why I believe that genital mutilation (circumcision) should be outlawed.

Thank you for the educational resources. I won't innocently say that "I don't think it has any significant impact" again because obviously now I do know something.

I only speak from my knowledge, which I have already admitted is very limited. The 3 people I know in my life that have had a circumcision have luckily had no negative effect from it.

I would hope you at least can see my detest for the entire culture of it, as I outlined in my original comment and throughout the thread. And perhaps cut me some slack on a small mistake I've made when I said I wasn't aware of any significant medical problems resulting from it. I have always made sure to note that I STILL do not agree with it, no matter the "pros" or cons.

Can we please not think I'm "pretending" but rather understand that - as I have already said - my knowledge on the subject is lacking, and no matter what I have maintained that I am strongly against the culture even without deep knowledge of it.

I'm sorry if that 1 line of text has made you see me as a villain, it wasn't intended in the way it has been taken. I'll watch my words in future.

[–]Ceigeee -1 points0 points1 point 3 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm the one saying I'm against it, can you read?

I'm just saying as far as I know there isn't a massive effect except for the obvious mutilation. Which isn't incorrect?

It can reduce sexual pleasure, and it can obviously hurt during and after surgery, but I don't know of any other medical issues caused by it.

THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT, I am just saying that realistically the removal of the foreskin doesn't have a significant MEDICAL impact.

Did you not read the full thread??? How am I encouraging circumcision? I have maintained throughout the conversation that I oppose it. I've spoken on it on more times than just this because I am against the circumcision culture completely.

I'm just offering some respect to the person I was conversing with because I have unintentionally offended him/his family's beliefs and my comment was quite hostile. I just wanted to clear the air because even though I oppose his beliefs I was still rude about something about his life.

Am I not an advocate for men's rights simply for being polite to someone who was polite to me? No.

Comment to someone who agrees with circumcision, don't comment to me, someone who disagrees with it. Fight the right people maybe you'll be useful then?

Edit: and to explain why I wanted to be polite to the person I spoke with - It isn't his fault his parents chose genital mutilation for him as an infant.

[–]RealEstate-Guy -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]intactisnormal 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The issue is body autonomy. Without medical need the decision always goes to the patient themselves, later in life. They decide for their own body.

The standard to intervene on someone else's body is medical necessity. The Canadian Paediatrics Society puts it well:

“Neonatal circumcision is a contentious issue in Canada. The procedure often raises ethical and legal considerations, in part because it has lifelong consequences and is performed on a child who cannot give consent. Infants need a substitute decision maker – usually their parents – to act in their best interests. Yet the authority of substitute decision makers is not absolute. In most jurisdictions, authority is limited only to interventions deemed to be medically necessary. In cases in which medical necessity is not established or a proposed treatment is based on personal preference, interventions should be deferred until the individual concerned is able to make their own choices. With newborn circumcision, medical necessity has not been clearly established.”

To override someone's body autonomy rights the standard is medical necessity. Without necessity the decision goes to the patient themself, later in life. Circumcision is very far from being medically necessary.

No negative effects whatsoever.

No one has to prove negative effects, but just so you are fully informed:

The foreskin is the most sensitive part of the penis. (Full study.)

Also watch Dr. Guest discussing how the foreskin is heavily innervated, the mechanical function of the foreskin and its role in lubrication during sex, and the likelihood of decreased sexual pleasure for both male and partner.(for ~15 min)

The argument against it is utterly illogical to me.

No one needs to make an argument against it. Those that want the circumcise others have to make an argument for it. That is the direction medical ethics goes.

I agree that it’s a personal choice as a parent, but it’s purely a matter of preference.

Without medical necessity the decision goes to the person themself later in life. They decide for their own body based on their own preference. It's their genitals, it's no one else's business.

[+]RealEstate-Guy -2 points-1 points0 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]strobro 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]intactisnormal 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And you don’t like that the burden of proof is on you to prove medical necessity, so you try to turn the tables. That was easy to see through.

No one has to prove the importance of a body part in order to keep it. That’s completely backwards. Those that want to remove other people’s body parts have to prove medical necessity. That’s exactly why medical ethics goes the direction they do.

Science and medicine are the one that has to constantly and continuously prove itself. That's literally how science works. It does not work off dogmatic beliefs or what was done in the past. We don't keep doing something just because it was done in the past. Anything in science and medicine needs to prove itself every time it's done. That’s literally how it works.

Are you? Are your family members? Do they have a problem with it? Its always crickets when I ask that.

Notice how you are trying to change this to anecdotes and emotions. When in reality it's about medicine, science, and medical ethics. That’s what I’m sticking to.

So we’re right back to where I said: Those that want to circumcise other people have to make their argument that it’s medically necessary. Without medical necessity, the decision goes to the patient themself later in life.

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[–]Amazing-Bit6140 4 points5 points6 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

yup, they'll molest and abuse children, then use that as an excuse for further molestation and abuse.

The foreskin is fused to the head at birth, like a toenail, that they think ripping this off while the baby screams (he does, they don't even bother to apply what little anesthetic they use until after that point) is somehow not harmful.

Not to mention they have to molest the baby boys into an erection before they start, it's obscene.

And then there's a dipshit elsewhere in this thread saying he'll proudly mutilate his future sons, ignoring anything that doesn't already confirm his believe that it's not harmful.

The unquestioning trust in "the medical field" is another problem, here. Just because some doctors say it's good doesn't make it good. Doctor's are wrong and often malicious as much as anyone, and will sexually abuse children if they get a paycheck and think nothing of it.

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Local here; I can answer this as someone also pressured to do so. There are three views why this practice persists in the Philippines.

ONE: It is a manhood rite of passage for evey male Filipino. If you get past a certain age intact, you'll be bullied by everyone be it friends or family. They will call you coward, "gay", and intact (which is an insult in local language). This is very damaging for the psyche of every young man so they'll be pressured to undergo the procedure because "it is what it is".

TWO: "Medical" reasons. I put some commas there because it is borderline supestitious here. It is said that you won't grow taller or grow at all if you don't get circumcised. It is also claimed that being intact is unhygienic.

THREE: "Religious" reasons. We have both Christianity and Islam, but the majority is Christianity (including other denominations) so the verse about the covenant of circumcision is practiced. Why pick only this and not the other biblical ceremonies? I will never know why.

No doctor here is advising against the practice (and teach us to properly clean instead). All of them are encouraging this every summer. Maybe it all boils down to ignorance and being superstitious. It would take generations for this practice to die. Sorry for the long answer!

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Title	A row of boys lying on newsprint-covered tables howl in pain and grit their teeth as part of "circumcision season" in the Philippines begins
Author	ShaidarHaran2
Upvotes	337
Comments	105
Date	February 16, 2023 11:43 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1144tob/a_row_of_boys_lying_on_newsprintcovered_tables/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-row-of-boys-lying-on-newsprint-covered-tables.1152398 https://theredarchive.com/post/1152398

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