What if people started calling it "toxic woke"

lorarc · 2023-10-15T22:26:46+00:00

I'm saying that many feminists today see themselves as empathetic and compassionate when truly they are rigid and controlling underneath. There is a disconnect there that they are often oblivious to and they don't understand the harm this causes.

Do you know many people that do not see themselves as empathetic and compassionate? From left to right all the people claim to be so. There are very few extreme people that are like "Survival of the fittest" or "Every man for themselves" but they are very rare.

TisIChenoir · 2023-10-16T06:36:47+00:00

You know,just yesterday on the french equivalent of r/askmen, there was a woman asking if her boyfriend's behavior was normal, or if he was a violent man.

So basically, she was talking to him about the whole Israel/Gaza disaster, and from the way she described him, it was clear to about anyone reading that he didn't want to talk about it.

So she pushed, and pushed, and at some point she told him (and I quote and translate) "how can you not cry for those women and kids killed by terrorists? How can you at least not be upset? You must be psychically ill!".

At which point he said loudly "can you leave me the fuck alone?" (Still, translated).

And the point that indirectly connects to what you say is she basically asked people there if her boyfriend will devolve into a dangerous maniac that will hurt her, because he told her that. And it was vulgar to boot. And she added "I am SO empathetic, I'm genuinely astonished to see him with so little empathy for those poor people".

Thankfully, people called her out and told her "you're not empathetic, you're unhinged. If you were empathetic, you'd have felt that he didn't want to tlakabout that. You'd have felt you were pushing too hard. And what kind of empathetic call her boyfriend or anyone "psychically ill" for not reacting the way she wants him to?"

But that's the gist of it. With such an accent put on empathy in society these days (rightfully so, we all should strive to develop our understanding of one another), you have people weaponizing it, brandishing it like a shield to show their moral high ground. "I am empathetic. So I am on the side of being good. Which means if you're against me you're not empathetic, you don't care about people. Therefore you're bad".

Except that those people don't show empathy.

And I think you hit the nail on the head with your definition of toxic woke.

LuciferLondonderry · 2023-10-15T22:37:42+00:00

There are two competing definitions of "racism/sexism" at this point in time, and I reckon this is what is causing such a disconnect in society.

The "liberal" definition, which has been around for centuries, is that treating anyone differently due to race is "racism", for gender is "sexism". Being violent or hateful towards someone due to the group they belong to is a clear form of bigotry. But even a positive belief about a group becomes "benevolent bigotry". For instance, if I say all Desi Indians are great dancers, or all Jews are great at business.

By contrast, "Woke" people believe in Identity Politics. I prefer to call them "Identity Politicians". I.P. declares that the only way to combat racism/sexism is to treat members of these groups differently. The idea being that by giving a disadvantaged group legal, social and economic advantages, a rough form of equality can be achieved.

Thus a problem arises, because what liberals see as anti- racism, Identity Politicians see as blatant racism and vice versa. Because very few people seem to think about things even enough to define their terms, great confusion follows.

LeotheLiberator · 2023-10-15T22:12:06+00:00

This debate on "woke" always bothered me as an individual who existed in "woke" crowds before it became weaponized by right-wingers. Woke has always meant socially conscious, specifically in reference to racial and systemic oppression. That has been the definition the entire time. There are people who put on a performative, exaggerated kind of Woke that always came across as excessive or cringey.

Truly, this all feels like what happens when black subculture gets politicized by white politics. Watching anyone rant about "wokeness" when that was a legitimate phrase in my community, music, and family, is really annoying.

Found an article that tells more.

EddgeLord666 · 2023-10-16T16:19:47+00:00

The problem is that "woke" people will not let you define the concept of woke, even if you change the name. 100% of the time if you try to define it for them after they ask you what it means they will just deflect.

Karmaze · 2023-10-16T01:40:55+00:00

Obligatory link.

https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/please-just-fucking-tell-me-what

In any case, for me it's pretty simple, how to define it. It's the belief in strict oppressor/oppressed power dynamics based on strictly identity factors. Maybe you go a step further and say as well that it's enforcement of said belief, maybe you don't.

In any case, I just call it Progressivism or Pop Progressivism or Cultural Progressivism. Just Progressivism in general, for that sort of left-authoritarian identitarian thing that protects social and status hierarchy in general.

Just to be clear, I identify as a liberal, which is more focused on pluralism, fairness and individuality.

In any case, the reason for that, is that I don't believe Cultural Progressivism actually works. I don't like the "systemic" frame. Systematic? Sure. Show me where the current biases are and lets fix them. Absolutely. But that's why I call it Cultural Progressivism.

If you think the key is getting people to actualize and internalize these ideas in their heads, and for them to make different decisions based on said ideas....where's the example? Where's the line of people giving up their ill-gotten gains to make way for more deserving people? Now this isn't healthy at all...but I do think that without this going on, what you get is essentially people gaming these ideas for their own personal benefit.

And to bring it back to sex/gender...this is something that's personal to me, which is why I'm kinda harsh on the subject. Because I grew up believing that because I'm male, I have to act in self-denying ways. Nothing I could ever get could ever be truly deserved.

So yeah. Truth is, I still have that self-destructive streak. Show me these cultural frameworks can work in getting people to act in self-denying ways, and maybe I'll be on board. But I just don't see it. I don't even see the desire to do it. Just to ensure that the costs are pushed down the socioeconomic hierarchy to those trying to start their way in the world.

Interesting_Doubt_17 · 2023-10-16T10:23:57+00:00

Let's just call them "wokescolds"

griii2 · 2023-10-16T19:46:11+00:00

How about toxic feminism?

r/ToxicFeminismIsToxic

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