Is Learning To Pick Up Women Morally Sound?

Electric_kundalini · 2022-06-09T09:51:21+00:00

I’m doing it to go dating so I don’t know why that would be considered immoral.

WilhelmTrooper · 2022-06-09T15:36:35+00:00

I see your point. I think it all has to do with motivation.

If you’re trying to use these pieces of advice to find women to date and build serious relationships with and treat them well and have that mutual bond, I think it’s perfectly ok. You have to make yourself attractive, otherwise why else would they want you? Relationships are a two way street.

If you’re doing it to manipulate women into thinking that you want a relationship just so you can finally sleep with them and then immediately leave, than yeah that’s pretty fucked up.

Chicagoj1563 · 2022-06-09T16:08:31+00:00

So Deontology is one conern...

I think this viewpoint is flawed because everyone in the world isn't doing it. Not only that, but there is a huge variation of what good game looks like. For someone who is good at natural game, it looks like a normal conversation. So, unless you think conversations is a bad thing, this doesn't really apply.

As for being uncalibrated, yes it can be a little off putting if someone is uncalibrated. However, if the beginner is learning the right way, one of the overall laws of game is to always be reading body language and know how to back off if someone is uncomfortable. Better yet, know how to recover from it. Apologize or walk away if you need to.

There are so many variations to this, too many to list. But, is a guy who is alone because society teaches guys not to approach, not to show intent, and girls never approach either, a guy in this situation, isn't he uncomfortable? Where are the worries about that? Do you see girls trying to solve this problem because its bad for men? There are young guys with suicide level depression over not having a girlfriend. No one seems to worry about that.

The world isn't a perfect place and there may be a little discomfort involved. It's necessary if a guy wants to date attractive women. Both genders have to deal with a little discomfort (within reason) sometimes. I accept the real world for what it is. It's not perfect, but you can find your way with some effort and intelligence.

djdante · 2022-06-09T15:45:40+00:00

Before learning to pick up women you should learn to be socially calibrated and have a good vibe overall. I can't imagine a women being affected if a decent guy approaches her in nice fashion without being creepy. The ones that are affected probably need social calibration too.

I agree that being hit on a lot would be weird, but let's say you're in a bar and 2 guys go to a woman to try and pick her up and it doesn't work you can assume she is not in the mood and not "try your luck " . Also if women would be better at giving signals, as matthew hussey says at " dropping the handkerchief" women could make it easier for everyone, so let's not just put everything on guys shoulders. From my point of view social dynamics should be taught in grade school, cues from women, how to approach respectfully, how to reject nice and how to take rejection, etc. World would be a better place, but if women have bitch face because they don't want to be approached by creepy guys, and normal guys don't want to approach women because of the bitch face we will get the same shitty outcomes. Shine light on the darkness, there's not moral conundrum here. Eating the rich however... :))

Rogue_Lion · 2022-06-09T16:51:05+00:00

I think as long as you are being respectful of women's boundaries and kind and courteous there's nothing morally unsound about it. There's nothing wrong with approaching a woman. It only becomes wrong if you persist in your approaches after she's made it clear she's not interested, or you do it in such a way that makes her feel unsafe/uncomfortable.

rattled_by_rush · 2022-06-09T21:09:10+00:00

This is a good question, and it's something I've thought about a bit. Part of the reason cold approaching is so difficult for men at first is bc society pretty explicitly tells us not to. There's strong social pressure for most men (with cultural differences ofc) to let women do their own thing during the day, to not hit on them, to not even do anything that can be construed as hitting on them. It makes sense, women don't want to be harassed or even bothered just going about their day. I empathize with that. On the other hand...

We have a major issue with dating in the West. An increasing number of people are not getting laid, including young men and women in the physical primes of their lives. There are a lot of reasons for that. I would say one is that the social pressure against men approaching women may have gone too far, in that many guys find themselves unable to make a move even in appropriate venues (clubs, bars, etc) or when given straight up green lights. Another big reason is dating apps. That people think they can avoid all these tricky gray areas by outsourcing it all to an app where everything is reduced to the simple binary of a swipe. I think it's clear to everyone here why that hasn't worked out.

Anyway there are a lot more reasons I'm sure, but my point is that the system increasingly doesn't work. If you're a regular, sexually frustrated guy who keeps burning out on the apps, doesn't want to risk ruining your work environment or friend group, what options do you have? I don't think you're wrong overall, but it's a societal problem and as individual men we have to take the opportunities that are available to us.

MrBlack__ · 2022-06-09T09:52:05+00:00

What do you think make up, hair extensions, high heels, painted nails, lip stick, tight dresses, boob jobs, butt jobs… is?

Are they Morally sound?

nordik1 · 2022-06-09T05:35:55+00:00

what if every guy on the street learned pickup? What if every single guy approached almost every woman he found attractive?

I don't see the relevance of this even in theory since this will never even come close to occurring in any form

So the men who need seduction the most may be doing the most harm to women in their early attempts.

Well what are these guys doing? Can you give specific examples?

If they're just approaching a girl and attempting to have a conversation her and she feels uncomfortable, that sounds like a social issue with her. Humans talk to humans. It's what we do.

Now if they're physically blocking the chick in with aggressive body language or doing weird shit like touching her or threatening her, then yeah I'd say thats some pretty bad contributions to society. But who is teaching stuff like that? How many guys have you coached that end up doing something like that?

I'd assume most guys actually following general cold approach advice would go up to a girl in a friendly, non-threatening manner (to appeal to attraction) and to converse with the woman in a positive/flirty way, and if turned down, they'd turn around and move onto the next. If not, is this really occurring a percentage of the time that is alarming compared to the majority? Or is it a 1% outcome kind of thing which is nearly impossible to control anwyay?

djdante · 2022-06-09T08:21:42+00:00

The reason I'm asking the question is originally I was reading a philosophy book and it talked about Deontology - Essentially one way to determine if something is morally okay is to say "What if everyone did this? would the world be better or worse" If the world would be worse, then it's probably immoral.

Ok. For one, do you think that’s an objective approach to morality? If so, why? Two, there’s moral assumptions within the question. Would the world be better. . . better according to what morality? It’s more like a method to apply your existing morality. It’s only as good as the morality you’re using to judge what’s better or worse. If your morality is non-objective or not well defined, then your conclusion will be as well. So what’s moral and why?

So if I apply this thinking to pickup and said... what if every guy on the street learned pickup?

What if every single guy approached almost every woman he found attractive?

Almost every woman? That’s a vague amount. Do the guys you teach even do this? And for how long do they do it? I doubt it’s possible for one man to do this, he wouldn’t have a life. He’d have to interrupt whatever he was doing almost every time he saw an attractive woman. It would be a nightmare for him. Since man has no control over the fact that he’ll feel attraction, he’d have no control over his life.

The second is this... Some men who start learning pickup are very awkward and socially uncalibrated... Along the way, they do things that inadvertently make women feel uncomfortable or unsafe. So the men who need seduction the most may be doing the most harm to women in their early attempts.

Putting asking whether learning pick-up is good, individuals have to learn how to date and achieve successful romantic relationships. That inevitably means that both men and women are going to make mistakes along the way, from the introduction, to the first dates, to having sex, to moving in together etc. If men and women do not attempt this, they will not be able to have successful romantic relationships and they will be much worse off.

Another way to look at it is that if socially awkward guys don’t improve themselves and don’t enter the dating pool, there will be less decent guys for women to choose from.

Also, let’s say a coach doesn’t help the socially awkward learn. Well, what happens when he’s more desperate later and doesn’t have any guidance?

I feel like it's a moral conundrum because as a coach, I don't want to make the world a worse place for women, I want to make more men happy and confident, and give more women the chance to meet decent guys.

Well, again, what’s worse? Or, more particularly, what’s better or moral in the first place?

Anyway, reality is what it is, independent of man’s feelings. And reason is man’s only means of knowledge.

Peikoff -

The senses, concepts, logic: these are the elements of man’s rational faculty—its start, its form, its method. In essence, “follow reason” means: base knowledge on observation; form concepts according to the actual (measurable) relationships among concretes; use concepts according to the rules of logic (ultimately, the Law of Identity). Since each of these elements is based on the facts of reality, the conclusions reached by a process of reason are objective. The alternative to reason is some form of mysticism or skepticism.

Ayn Rand -

Mysticism is the acceptance of allegations without evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence of one’s senses and one’s reason. Mysticism is the claim to some non-sensory, non-rational, non-definable, non-identifiable means of knowledge, such as “instinct,” “intuition,” “revelation,” or any form of “just knowing.”

That being said, that means morality needs to be approached objectively or rationally. And, from what I’ve learned from Rand, the first question for an objective approach is to ask whether morality is objectively necessary for man in the first place or whether it’s a religious, traditional, detached from reality, objectively unnecessary concept.

And if you do that, as Rand briefly outlines here https://courses.aynrand.org/works/the-objectivist-ethics/, then what’s objectively moral is what’s necessary for man to live as man ie to thrive, to flourish. And, for those who can pursue it, pursuing romance is necessary for man to live. It’s necessary for both men and women. So from a guy’s perspective, if learning how to date better is helpful for pursuing romance, then it’s good. If he accidentally makes a woman feel uncomfortable, then he should make up for it by apologizing. From a woman’s perspective, men learning how to date better is also helpful for her to pursue romance, so it’s good for her as well even if that means some awkward or uncomfortable moments.

Edit: I don’t know what learning to pick up means for you, so depending on what that is, it might be immoral, against what’s necessary for individuals to live.

SgtChrome · 2022-06-09T07:49:43+00:00

You're a dating coach of 13 years and you're asking questions about "morality"?

Listen... the ONLY thing that matters in this world are objective LAWS.

NOT ethics, and NOT morality. They're entirely subjective and they don't even count.

As long as you are not breaking any laws, or attracting the attention of the police, then all is fair in love and war.

Pickup is really about communication and self-expression anyway. No two people are the same. If all men were really good at pickup, women would have a great time hanging around with really great guys. They'd only find it annoying if all the men they met SUCKED at it to the point where it bothered them - which is exactly where we are at the moment.

Zealousideal6669 · 2022-06-09T15:15:32+00:00

You dont really have to worry about that. Why most guys are never gonna learn pickup? because it's simply hard. it is. it's not the easiest thing to learn techniques, go to talk to strangers to try them out, and learn from the consequences. People are just simply too lazy for that and it's still many ways easier to complain about it for others and you usually gonna hear that brilliant advice over and over again. Just be yourself, just be more patient someone is out there for you. Ofc it can be a moral question, you can influence her emotions and you know how to but it just depends on how you use it and what you know. if you use it to hook up with girls and then go home in the middle of the night and never see them and contact them again then you probably made the world a bit a worse place but if your intentions are we hang out, we have fun, we get to know each other and let things happen as they come without any blame or regret you're already at a much better place

Crisia_1234 · 2022-06-09T19:12:47+00:00

Yes i agree with you. The problem is that those guys literally have 0 chance with women because 1.) they just aren't socially talented with women and 2.) because they aren't naturally good with women they don't improve because they see other man having sucess while they dont. Therefore the big depression is coming and they just give up. It's like playing sports, if you aren't naturally then the likehood of giving that sport up is way higher. So the gap between those gifted and non gifted rises way beyond the talent difference so to speak. Obviously at some point, they want to find a partner too and realize that they need to do some action. Now if you want to get started from 0 what do you need to do is approaching girls with 0 social skills. If they do, awkwardness for you and the women is guaranteed. The problem is that the women don't know them and their intentions (because they cant express them naturally and flawlessly) which makes it very uncomfortable for them. But there isn't really a better way of doing it. Either make yourself and some women uncomfortable and improve from your mistakes or stay alone and pray to God that somehow you will end up with a good girlfriend

Adjustedwell · 2022-06-10T02:07:06+00:00

If everyone tried to would it make the world a better place. not every guy would succeed.

It would kinda of end up the way dating apps work where women would become more selective just out of sheer volume. It would probably make women take more caution before going out, it would probably make them think twice about wearing things that would attract a surplus of unwanted attention, it would probably be a moral correction to western society.

Title	Is Learning To Pick Up Women Morally Sound?
Author	djdante
Upvotes	13
Comments	34
Date	June 9, 2022 4:21 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/v88g6d/is_learning_to_pick_up_women_morally_sound/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/is-learning-to-pick-up-women-morally-sound.1257566 https://theredarchive.com/post/1257566

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