I am a woman and I wrote an article about seduction from a woman's point of view. I would like some feedback on it ..more info inside

ThrowawayPUA · 2014-01-19T03:32:54+00:00

I admonish seddit commenters to keep a civil tongue. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.

The author has gone to some considerable effort to write this post, and says she has encountered hostility over it in other subreddits. That's not going to happen in seddit. We are open to alternative points of view, and can find value when it is sincerely offered.

PhilosophEyes · 2014-01-19T01:55:00+00:00

There is some useful insight here. But you use a lot of generalizations and male stereotypes, which is usually the main women's main criticism towards articles like this written by men

shitsfuckedupalot · 2014-01-19T08:02:21+00:00

Its not that i disagree, it just seems a bit pseudo psychology to me. You make some good points, but most of your connections and advice seem to be based on logical connections from observable stereotypes, which in my limited experience is rarely how psychology works. In my opinion, its 100% observing an individual you wish to attract. Intelligent people dont suceed because their brains are bigger. They succeed because they can apply their knowledge. If i do suceed, it was because i was paying attention to the girl. Its all about understanding who she is by small details. Girls go crazy about that

blurple77 · 2014-01-19T02:52:27+00:00

This was depressing for a tiny man with tiny hands.

uberafc · 2014-01-19T15:40:32+00:00

Most men know this on some level, but many make one crucial mistake: they emphasize their masculinity (“Oh, my Mazerratti is only for driving around the French Riviera…The BMW’s only for when I’m in the States”) without calling attention to a woman’s femininity.

If you’re on a date and you’re “casually” mentioning your six-figure income, your efforts will be much more effective if you do so while holding her smaller hand in your bigger hand.

Your examples of how men showcase their masculinity isn't really relate able to the vast majority of guys. Most guys do not have 6 figure salaries and drive around in Mazaretti's. Hell a lot of guys already think you need money to be attractive to women, so your examples really just make it seem as if holding her hand is really secondary to the fact that this guy is making a ton of money and the girl is only on that date because he is rich/handsome/etc...

Secondly you really never talk about what makes a guy attractive. The sex part is the easier part int this whole game, the more difficult part is becoming the sort of guy women want to have sex with.

I liked what you wrote but I feel it could be greatly improved if you spent some time discussing that, and maybe changing your examples (Unless those examples are accurate in your mind and a guy having a 6 figure income is a prerequisite for being seen as attractive but bragging about it makes him a douche... is true) So yea more realistic examples the average guy could relate to, and more concrete steps on how one can display their masculinity and be genuinely more attractive to women.

niner_niner · 2014-01-19T04:59:52+00:00

Interesting read. Well done.

A suggestion from my humble standpoint of content consumer:

I think you need deeper focus in order for this to be actionable (and therefore, valuable) information. It seems to me that the vast majority of pick-up content is more focused on the attraction phase of the process rather than the actual sex. I think this is because sex is fairly easy to understand, it doesn't really need to be taught. Even as you wrote it, it boils down to: truly desire her, show her that, and pay attention to her responses to you. The attraction part, for most guys, is harder to understand because we don't know WTF goes on inside your head, namely what drives your attraction to us (or lack thereof). I feel this may also be where a lot of the negative responses about your "generalizations of men" are coming from. You seem really focused on telling us how to fuck better without acknowledging the fact that we genuinely want partners. We want to understand you and we want to be able to mutually enjoy our time together. Some guys who jump into pickup think they want to learn how to pump-and-dump with a high success rate but if they stick with it, they learn that is extremely vapid and unsatisfying. Often we, as men already know this going in to it, which is why the majority of seddit and the greater pickup community is more about self-improvement. This effort is more about becoming the best men we can be and enjoying life the way we think great men enjoy it... with great women.

At the risk of ranting off-topic, I just want to point out that this seems to be the primary reason advice from women in the pickup community isn't taken as seriously. Women seem to have the impression much of the time that we men are still just cavemen trying to spread seed, but they have that impression for good reason! We've learned, and you re-affirmed in your article, that women respond to open communication of our carnal desires, it just so happens that a lot of people (not just men) aren't the most effective communicators so it comes out boorish a lot of the time. Anyway, back to your article...

That said it can be valuable to read a well though-out article on sex from the female perspective. It may have more impact though to split it based on the different areas you cover because, as it's written it's like that old adage about the river that's a mile wide but only an inch deep. Maybe cover different topics in different essays such as: sex, attraction (which could be, and is, numerous books), chivalry and why you believe it is not dead, a women's perspective on masculinity (be verrry careful with that one though, we're very sensitive over this topic), firendzoneage, etc.

I know that dragged on a bit too long but I kinda just got rolling with it. Again, great job though. It's always good to see things from a different angle. Even though many people aren't saying it, thank you for taking the time to try to understand the world from our angle and leverage that to help us understand the world from yours. Good luck!

4juice · 2014-01-19T01:17:09+00:00

This is so pleasant to read.

danhakimi · 2014-01-19T15:27:17+00:00

So, before I say what I have to say, I should say that I'm not subscribed to this sub, hate most of what I see on here, and only come back out of a certain morbid curiosity. I'm further not like most men here in that I'm looking for a relationship, and then sex, and not the other way around (or just the latter). In that regard, your advice not be for me, but my complaints about it will stand regardless.

You describe actions a man can take to be perceived as masculine, and to make it clear that he perceives a woman as feminine. As a person who has been called creepy on more than one occasion, I have to tell you, none of what you said is right. It can all fall on either end of that spectrum -- sexy or creepy -- and, for me and many others, would often be on the latter. People would start blowing rape whistles if I behaved the way you recommend. But you address the rapey concept, right?

Isn’t forcing yourself on a woman just because you happen to be horny considered….well, rape? (Ooops). Well, rape happens to be missing the second part of the magical formula: a man satisfying a woman.

I'm sorry, but this is a load of crap in like twelve different ways. For one, no, rape is not less rapey if the woman enjoys it. Two, the asshole PUAs who "succeed" with women, do not care about pleasing them, or anybody--they're too self-obsessed to think that far. The ones thought of as "creepy," on the other hand, have spent a long time telling themselves that they could make a woman happy, if only given the chance. Even if it's a lie, they thoroughly believe it, and want to achieve it, even more than they care about achieving any direct pleasure for themselves--their pleasure will come from making her happy (and, well, yeah, they'll cum, of course they'll cum).

You go on to make up a whole lot of nothing:

If you’re a talker, then literally narrate your dirty thoughts out loud, “oh, your ass looks amazing now.”

See, that seems to me like it'd be creepy, rapey, and ineffective. It's not clever, it's not interesting, it's basically saying, "hello, I would like to have sex with you right now, is that something you'd like to do?"

Compliments always work!

No they fucking don't.

A better and more natural way of going about doing it, though, is to communicate through body language. ... Depending on what kind of person you are, you’re going to bite her, inhale her skin, slap her ass, run your fingers through her hair, grab her boobs, put your hands around her little waist as she arches her back, screw her while observing her face, ask her to fuck you, hold her down and go to town, whisper dirty stuff in her ear, look down at her smile as she’s blowing you, etc

... I think you skipped a step.

Fruitje · 2014-01-19T05:49:33+00:00

I love your post. I didn't for one minute think this is sexist in any way, but welcome any information on the way women view 'seduction', for lack of a better one-word descriptive. Some of the responses, which I do believe were posted by males, made me giggle a bit (I am a guy). If you have a look at the general PUA post on Reddit, these are filled with boasting and sexist views, and here they blame you for being sexist, haha.

Everybody knows that guys are evolutionary programmed to spread their seed, eh ... wings and we needn't be anal about someone calling us out on it, especially if she is female. There are men out there who believe they are different and who put a nice layer of varnish on their personalities to make them shine and show they are better than most guys out there. They do not want to spread their wings, surpress their masculinity and focus on a single woman and a boring lifestyle for the rest of their lives and put her on a pedestal, only to find out that after a few nice years together the lady moves elsewhere, because there is no passion whatsoever between the two of them. These guys are typically suffering from the Nice Guy Syndrome (I usd to be like this, am now recovering from it and focussing life primarily on my wants, needs and, most importantly, passions). I found out, that I'm a sexual person and that that is nothing to be either afraid of or ashamed about. Reading a post from a woman, giving insight into women and stating they are sexual as well and clarifying that they view things in a different way and need to be addressed in a way that is not natural to guys, but easy to learn, will greatly aid a guy in dealing with an attractive woman.

So I, for one, are going to embrace what you wrote and see if it will help me sweep the next attractive woman I meet of her feet and help me set up a mutually enjoyable horizontal get-together.

Any chance you'll be in the Netherlands any time soon? 😄

ElektricEmpire · 2014-01-19T17:23:54+00:00

Hey, wanted to say great post! Very well thought out and well written. I think more women should write articles like this on what turns them on.

I loved the sexual responsiveness part. I'd always just escalated naturally but never thought of it that way. I don't know about the masculine-feminine thing though. I'm sure it's true on some level, but thinking about that kind of stuff just trips me up (am I being masculine? Should I hold her hand now? Oh man, her hand is pretty big too! Oh shit!)
So I guess, follow your lust, express it honestly, take the lead and fuck it, have fun!

Ori_553 · 2014-01-19T22:07:32+00:00

I'll state my personal opinion.. "This article is terribly.. right!", Congratulations, this is seduction, if you don't wanna feel its essence, then, just change page without feeling offended by a reality that is not for you.

If female's didn't have those fantasies, "that book" wouldn't have been the bestseller of all times, what proofs do you want?

I'll answer to some of the critiques probably written by guys who never had sex in their lifes.

there are guys here who write "you don't have any evidence for your claims" totally forgetting that this is seduction, and even in psychology there are no proofs of anything, just interpretations that are more or less respected (even neuroscience results are interpretations). when she wrote "Men are biologically programmed to seek out attractive partners, become excited, ejaculate, rinse, and repeat. ", she's not stereotyping, she's stating a fact, this last years of civilization are just the 1% of our history (even less), all the rest was tribe times, and that's what has been happening before sexual repression caused you to fap on the internet, reality has no morals.

To face a topic like seduction there's no time to prove everything you say, you have to take a stand and make a decision on what you're going to say, and her point of view is totally realistic and totally logic (according to my opinion, of course).

Wombat_of_Death · 2014-01-19T15:05:11+00:00

This was definitely an interesting read, and personally, your writing style suits my tastes. Since you want feedback, though, I shall attempt to provide something useful....which may have already been said, but I'm always late to the party, and too lazy to try to check through all the comments.

First, phrases like "I'm sure you're familiar with..." and "But I'm sure you're aware of that" come off as patronizing, so I can see where that was coming from on AskMen. I think it seems emasculating because you make generalizations about male instincts without any context of our control over those instincts. Yes, we are biologically programmed to perform the act of reproduction as much as possible with as many as possible. However, at least most of us prefer to maintain some control over those urges. Now there is no way to say this without sounding like a patronizing hypocrite, but I'm sure you were aware of all that. If you're looking to improve the article, I would recommend incorporating that into it. Probably before where you currently mention biological programming, to soften the blow to our fragile egos.

Secondly, I feel like your focus bounces around a bit, which is perfectly acceptable for anything other than an actual article. Is this about the act of sex? Getting to sex? Attraction? How to not be an asshole to a woman? There's enough content in the topics you bring up to fill a book...or a whole library. By all means, write the book. I'd read it. For an article though, I think you have to focus on one topic, and go into more specifics. I see a lot of generalizations, which while not untrue, need more to really be helpful.

Lastly I wish you luck in furthering your endeavor and sifting through all of the feedback. I would love to read a revised version of this (regardless of whether any of my suggestions were used).

_grim · 2014-01-19T02:04:58+00:00

Seduce your audience next time. Build rapport.

For someone who is of the sex that often spouts shallow socially conditioned responses instead of vulnerable honest answers to.. " what do kind of man are you into?", you have show us you can walk in our shoes before we'll acknowledge anything you say on this topic.

If you know about seduction and males, you didn't show it.

That's your biggest issue with this article.

2014-01-19T03:28:50+00:00

Is there a fine line between being sexually aggressive and coming across as selfish?

bunhead13 · 2014-01-19T05:26:45+00:00

It's not bad, but i do feel like perhaps you need some "field reports". You know some good evidence for support.

ideally_iambic · 2014-01-19T08:45:40+00:00

I'm just seeking clarification on some of the things you said, in the hope that if I found it odd, then perhaps you need to address the phrasing.

"We don’t often begin fantasizing about sex if we see a hot guy on the street," - this I assume is different to them saying to their friends 'damn I'd go there.' Yes? The corollary here is that guys do? Because I feel it's more like - see a hot girl and feel attracted to them, which isn't the same as just imagining myself banging them.
"but we do become aroused if we view or are introduced to almost any kind of sexual atmosphere (including monkeys mating—strange, but true)" - this is really interesting, and I didn't know it. Cite/ tell me more?
"This is why a girl can be a firm believer in her purity pledge, only to have her honor dissolve once she begins making out with the quarterback behind the bleachers." I've seen this happen lots, but it's exactly the same with guys too, if not more so.
"women are most sexually receptive when we feel feminine (open, vulnerable)" - only going from personal experience, but it can be entirely the opposite...

Does that help at all? Well-thought out, but there might also be a chance of your missing other female perspectives while concentrating on the male one. Your last para of handy tips was fun though.

2014-01-19T13:43:26+00:00

Lots of women like tenderness because they feel respect. I don't like these theories because they miss a critical point: spontaneity.

2014-01-19T16:32:40+00:00

I think this article is well written and has some great insights. I didn't find any of it offensive, but I dont think I'm in the same position as many guys in this sub. As far as the pick up community goes in general, I think there are far more insecure guys out there than confident ones. I mean, while else did we seek help from internet strangers? Truth be told I dont know why im still subscribed to this sub. I learned some useful stuff and nowadays I dont have any problem at all picking up a cute girl at school or a bar or a party, but it seems like lots of people still stuck in the learning phase are the ones who "just aren't getting it". They get frustrated. They will make sexist remarks and generalizations and write a shitty, uninformed article about how to pick up women. But when you write an article from a female perspective, it offends them in a strange way.

I think by nature of your audience you will get a lot of negative feedback, just keep in mind its only your sample size.

jmikolash · 2014-01-19T16:34:02+00:00

Here's man thinking when it comes to sex. Man see curve. Curve look nice. Curve have valley. Valley have hole. What man do to feel nice curve valley? The Game

2014-01-19T18:46:30+00:00

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infininme · 2014-01-19T20:27:04+00:00

food for thought. I like that you provide a perspective how women may not always think sex but in a context where they can feel it, they have more interest. I think this improves my game so thanks!

seduction_sutra · 2014-01-19T23:06:05+00:00

You definitely aren't a terribly good writer! That was a hard read, but definitely worth it. You've opened up new avenues of thought to me, definitely going to pursue those and make use of them.

And to the guys arguing endlessly about "generalizations" and complaining "opinion without evidence": how about stopping arguing over the Internet, going out there in the field and proving/disproving OP's theories? What the hell do you gain by proving your intellectual superiority over the OP or discussing whether or not these are applicable to women in general? Go and verify it in practice you blockheads.

Manwhorelio · 2014-01-20T06:05:38+00:00

Saabalicious I'm going to take this and post it on my forum and let the guys take a peep at it. I'll post the thread link up here so you can read their views on it.

I think it's very right on myself, I think there's a couple things you should probably tweak a bit to make it more fitting, but it's truthful and definitely represents a perspective that should be more openly understood.

pauselaugh · 2014-01-19T07:18:18+00:00

Hugely generalized and stereotyped. I'm unsure what feedback you're looking for, or what the purpose of this is?

Otherwise, sorry but I don't even go so far to think this is "arrogant, patronizing, and emasculating" rather vapid, uninsightful and simpleminded.

I disagree with many if not most of your statements, and here's a real spoiler: if someone doesn't behave the way you're prescribing them to behave, then it won't work. They can't fake that, they can't practice it. So notifying people of what they'll do naturally or not doesn't really matter.

Even though it is extremely corny to refer to Russell Brand, I'll stoop and say that the reason why it works is because he does it naturally and not because he read a fucking guide.

Hook_Toe · 2014-01-19T09:09:47+00:00

It has good parts, like the "Woman fantasize.." paragraph. But perhaps rewrite "So this sounds pretty simple.." sentence in the following paragraph. Also reconsider the rape paragraph altogether.. I would say you don't need to address this issue at all. Plus you said "rape happens to be missing the second part of the magical formula." This isn't what makes rape different from --er, aggressive sex. Rape is defined by consent. Yes or no. If she says no, then its no. Not whether a man is satisfying a woman.

skunker · 2014-01-19T18:12:13+00:00

Most of the feedback here is pretty accurate, but always spellcheck something you're publishing (legit article or not). You misspelled Maserati, which nullifies any point your example set out to make. I don't drive one, but a glaring error like that tells me you didn't take the time to make sure this article was ready for prime time, and makes me doubt your opinion because it strikes me as lazy. How much research did you really do for this article, was a thought that immediately followed.

Other than that, I think it's good to have the woman's perspective and I believe there is some useful info here. Thanks for sharing

tedfahrvergnugent · 2014-01-19T02:26:51+00:00

I love it! I feel like there are some solid insights in there. It clicks with some concepts I picked up from Nancy Friday's My Secret Garden and just personal experience. I'm gonna try to devise some experiments to test your hypotheses! Ideas welcomed!

iwbafam1 · 2014-01-19T04:46:35+00:00

This article is so good! Why the negative response? I can/will learn from this woman! If only I had her as my coach!:)

2014-01-19T12:55:58+00:00

I have to say this is quite patronizing, less of the rhetorical questions and a lot of this is quite obvious

SgtSplacker · 2014-01-19T19:35:03+00:00

Guide written by men = Showing men how to deal with women. Guide written by woman = Showing men how to deal with women. Just more of the same thing, women asking men for stuff, it never changes. Tell you one thing honey, there's definitely room for improvement on the female side of this story ok?

thehigheststatusmale · 2014-01-19T02:05:20+00:00

Don't write it in second person.

2014-01-19T01:43:30+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	I am a woman and I wrote an article about seduction from a woman's point of view. I would like some feedback on it ..more info inside
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	70
Comments	83
Date	January 19, 2014 12:34 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/1vk60u/i_am_a_woman_and_i_wrote_an_article_about/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/i-am-a-woman-and-i-wrote-an-article-about.1364667 https://theredarchive.com/post/1364667

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