It seems mainstream leftists are on a mission to convince you of their ways!

captainhornheart · 2024-11-29T16:51:08+00:00

not because he actually wants to understand the world around him, but it's almost as he's trying to find any opening he can to influence people to buy into the mainstream leftist way of thinking like it's a mission

I have a friend who's similar. He still reads the Guardian unironically and believes every word its columnists write, even the obviously nutty ones. Ultimately, he's a friend and political beliefs shouldn't be allowed to come between us, so I simply tend to avoid discussing topics that I know we'll disagree about. It shouldn't be that way with friends, but he's very bad at debating and quickly loses his temper - possibly because all of his beliefs are second-hand so he's never had to think about them. But that's the nature of ideology, as is the proselytising. We'll stay friends but a dimension of that friendship is out of bounds these days.

I know it's me that's changed though. Like many here, I became more questioning of mainstream progressive positions because of men's issues. I used to nod along with it all, but I find I can no longer do that. It's made me realise that I was previously just as much under the influence of an ideology as a socialist, fascist, feminist or religious believer. I now reject all ideologies, preferring to adopt positions on a case-by-case basis, even if it makes my worldview inconsistent and even, at times, conflicting. Any set of beliefs that claims to be complete or entirely coherent can't be an honest representation of the confusing, uncertain and ever-changing world we live in. Absolute certainty is always the sign of a zealot. Even being liberal and left wing are somewhat contradictory positions, given that left wing policies will always require more government powers and intervention in people's personal lives, which is authoritarianism of a sort. My positions are generally left wing or liberal, but not by design.

I don't try to convert friends or family members to my way of thinking. Society's too polarised right now, and everything is taken too personally. I would risk losing them, and that's a much greater harm than them holding the "wrong" opinions. If people try to convert me, I change the subject. There's nothing wrong with campaigning for what you believe in or arguing your position, but for the sake of a peaceful life I keep it outside family and friend circles.

Sorry, I've digressed and I haven't really addressed your main point!

D_Luffy_32 · 2024-11-29T18:28:16+00:00

Kind of unrelated but one of the things that you mentioned really speaks to the issues with feminism. And that's positive masculinity. I've asked many feminists what is positive masculinity as opposed to toxic masculinity. Because they often claim that they're not saying all masculinity is toxic. But when they explain what kind of masculinity isn't toxic. It's always either traditional feminine traits like taking care of kids or in the service of women like protecting their wives. Basically to a feminist, masculinity is only not toxic when it benefits someone else. But a man just existing for himself is toxic. I don't know about you but I've even been told to go die in a war or something like that if I have a conversation about men's rights. Despite me not once saying go back to the kitchen or something.

Tevorino · 2024-11-29T19:10:16+00:00

From my own experience, there are a lot of ppl in liberal societies that are holding conservative views, but they're usually more undercover with it and even show understanding and acceptance of liberal values

It’s not even so much that they hold specifically conservative views, but rather that the “silent majority” of people are not beholden to any “political tribe” and either have their own views, or don’t even care enough about politics to have meaningful views. If they do have their own meaningful views, they will be tactful about how they express them. This tact may be confusing to you if you are “neurospicy” in a manner where you always express how you really feel and expect others to do the same.

Part of this tact is trying to fit in with the prevailing culture. Therefore, someone who has their own, independent views that aren’t entirely liberal or conservative, will behave differently when surrounded by liberals than they will when surrounded by conservatives (there are also what you might call "undercover liberals" in conservative settings). They will engage and avoid different subjects, and even express their takes on the same issues in a somewhat different manner. A lot of what you are observing is probably this kind of tact.

Then my leftist "friend" made it a point to say the mainstream liberal spaces do talk about exhibiting masculinity without the toxicity "all the time."

He’s not wrong, although the “toxicity” is so poorly defined (and I think they are very intentional about that, i.e. it’s one of those “conveniently vague” terms) that this claim becomes difficult to evaluate.

Or how gaming circles is filled with dominant women

The kinds of women who are into gaming are more likely to have that kind of personality, yes. Most of the really interesting women I know, including my girlfriend of nearly two years (and likely my wife in the near future) are women I met through gaming (in the case of my girlfriend, a tabletop Dungeons & Dragons circle). Of course the lopsided gender ratio means that most of these interesting women are taken, and there are a lot of men with whom to complete for the interesting women who are not taken.

He'd say it's common for women to be the breadwinner which from my personal exp I only know 1 couple that fits this

Ah yes, the elusive couple in which the woman earns significantly more than the man, and they are both perfectly happy and stable together. Sure, they exist, and they are nearly as rare in my experience as they are in yours (I have had lots of exposure).

But as I reflected back at our conversation, I realized he may not have engaged in these discussions honestly.

From what you have said here, it sounds to me like he actually is being quite honest. Keep in mind that even the people who are beholden to a “political tribe” tend not to agree with 100% of the orthodoxy. Most of them aren’t even aware of 100% of the orthodoxy, for similar reasons to how a lot of devout Christians, who go to church every Sunday and pay close attention to the sermons, would still get a failing grade if they took a comprehensive exam on the content of the Bible. That’s why even someone who seems to be a “dyed in the wool” liberal may surprise you with some of the beliefs they express and with some of the things they don’t know.

When I present to him other possibilities that arguments supporting his ideology may not be factors and that there are things that are clearly unfairly discriminating against men, he would default to "I'd still need to do more research on it."

That’s what an honest person would say. They would then actually go and do the research. A dishonest person might also say that and then never bother doing the research, but I would give him the benefit of the doubt.

It's like these feminists are aware of men's issues at a surface level but not deeply.

That’s most people, about most issues. Unfortunately, well-informed people are the exception, not the norm.

tdono2112 · 2024-11-29T23:07:19+00:00

The American left wing is fundamentally American, meaning— evangelical, puritan, paranoid. The idea of the demon male-gaze has replaced the demon rum and the demon pornography, but fundamentally, the majority of American left-wingers are simply recreating the Puritanical values they grew up with in the aesthetics of “struggle for liberation” rather than “struggle for the soul.” There are still only two options, one clearly good and one clearly evil. Evangelizing is, and always has been, more about affirming the gospel to the believer than it is producing converts—you see this in both liberal types and college-campus preachers who absolutely relish in the validation of being the “virtuous loser.” I’m of the impression that your friend really wants to believe thus stuff, because at some level they see believing it as equivalent or coterminous with, salvation/morality, and by attempting to persuade you, they’re trying to shore up against losing ground.

I am currently in-between jobs (starting new contract in like two weeks) and have been pretty comfortably, consistently, competitively employed for as long as I’ve been able to be. I’ve yet to find a woman in the world who doesn’t, at some point, express the desire to be some hybrid of home-maker and artist or home-maker and gardener, not because “toxic masculinity” defining gender roles so much as the simple, basic, entry level left wing position that HAVING YOUR SURPLUS LABOR VALUE STOLEN SUCKS! I am not a gender essentialist or anything, but I think it’s easier for women to express this because there’s a historical model of non-accumulation they can connect to, whereas men have always been the machines.

I’m more comfortable admitting to the notion of a patriarchy if we decouple it from the popular notion that it’s the same as “rule by all men” and really acknowledge that it’s “rule founded on the authority of male minority.” This adjustment allows for it to be a serious analytic tool for understanding subaltern male positionalities in a manner that the popular feminist “male vs. female” notion of history is willfully blind towards.

White_Immigrant · 2024-11-29T21:31:58+00:00

The "mainstream left", particularly in the USA, is a lot further right than a lot of people from the traditional left. There's also the issue that all identity politics based beliefs (which have largely emerged through the dominance of the USA particularly in the Anglosphere) are in direct conflict with working class solidarity, and I no longer think that's entirely an accident. If you have any political movement that is nominally left wing but they seek to exclude certain groups of the working class, working class white men for example, then at some level they're more interested in the hierarchy of identity than addressing a problematic right wing capitalist system.

If we want left wing change, anywhere, you have to work for the benefit of everyone, and build it upon basic principles of shared ownership and solidarity. If people are more interested in arguing about what parts of an arbitrarily defined masculinity are toxic or positive, as opposed to campaigning for access to healthcare, housing, food, and education for everyone regardless of gender or race, then they're probably not as left wing as they'd like to believe.

LemmeAxUaQ · 2024-11-30T04:27:59+00:00

I have enjoyed this discussion more than most on r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates. You all sound like flexible and open guys that just want the same lens used to view you as is used for women. Your examples should be appealing to all political leanings. It has the authenticity of humility with no hubris. Basic needs, simply expressed.

I wonder if discussions like this might compel others to be more open. Certainly the mainstream view of blaming men for election results convinced no one to be be productive and (gasp) try to understand what men need. Mind-blowing, I know.

Johntoreno · 2024-11-29T23:14:35+00:00

there are a lot of ppl in liberal societies that are holding conservative views

People's worldviews are in a spectrum of conservative&liberal views. When it comes to gender roles, most ppl are not conscious of the ways they tacitly expect men&women to behave differently. Gender scripts are oft conveyed via indirect&cryptic social cues, for ex: No one ever directly tells men that showing vulnerability is shameful, its a passive discouragement that most don't even notice. It starts with parent/guardian/teacher's disapproval/lower tolerance of emotional vulnerability such as crying/being afraid/hugging/playfullness etc passive disapproval get reinforced throughout our lives and we internalise the belief that emotional intimacy has to be masked with performative masculinity.

Like, your friend may fancy himself as super progressive but ask him what he thinks of an insecure Man and then the next day ask him about how he feels about insecure Women. The chances are, he'll only show disproval of insecure men and hold them to a higher standard of emotional self-regulation. Its not even because he's a feminist, its what most people do without even thinking.

but it's almost as he's trying to find any opening he can to influence people to buy into the mainstream leftist way of thinking like it's a mission

You're right on him not starting convos to learn about the world, but i think he's just one of those people who wants to sound hip&in with the crowd by repeating the soundbites he got from mainstream media.

namayake · 2024-11-30T06:58:48+00:00

I'm pretty certain the reason he's resistant to accepting anything you might tell him about men's issue is because of tribalism. Anything you tell him that contradicts the beliefs of his group is rejected as if he were to accept them, he'd be ostracized. It's the same reason many people won't think critically about numerous issues.

transitional_path · 2024-11-29T21:39:28+00:00

The deeper you get into politics, the more you tune your algorithms, the more people you cut off or lose, the more detached from how the world really is, you become.

I get pretty worried about people on the right and the left. There's a lot of ideas out there about the world that aren't actually real.

Honestly? They're kind of just making some of them up. Collectively, amongst each other. Echo chambering back and forth until it's such a distorted echo, that it becomes a lie.

That's politics.

Sewblon · 2024-11-30T03:49:49+00:00

>the mainstream liberal spaces do talk about exhibiting masculinity without the toxicity "all the time."

I have never seen that.

Edit: I have seen people claim to talk about healthy masculinity. But, its never something that can serve to differentiate men from women. That is a necessary condition for masculinity, at least in my mind.

Upper-Divide-7842 · 2024-11-30T13:21:43+00:00

"Then my leftist "friend" made it a point to say the mainstream liberal spaces do talk about exhibiting masculinity without the toxicity "all the time.""

Your friend is lying to you.

This idea actually makes no sense as they would never admit that any positive quality can be defined as characteristically masculine.

Title	It seems mainstream leftists are on a mission to convince you of their ways!
Author	MSHUser
Upvotes	69
Comments	40
Date	November 29, 2024 1:12 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1h2lhw7/it_seems_mainstream_leftists_are_on_a_mission_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/it-seems-mainstream-leftists-are-on-a-mission-to.1537222 https://theredarchive.com/post/1537222

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