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My Special Snowflake

Reddit View
July 20, 2017

I read Simbarlion's post and then read all of Casual Shanter's stuff and it hit home, made me think, so now its time to share with everyone. I've been at this for a few months or more, had success and failure, a rambo episode, a minor back injury from lifting, but I'm a work in progress and still going forward.

Background: Married 15 years and no kids. Both of us are professionals with high education, and have our own businesses that occupy most of our time (12 hour days on weekdays, always some hours also on weekends). I make time for the gym 5 days/week and have become more attractive, I lead more, I flirt, kino, etc. since starting with the red pill.

Marriage Background: We met in college while I was spinning plates (I didn't know it was called that at the time). She was a virgin until around age 27 when she gave it up one night with me. She was raised in a very catholic family where good girls didn't do these things, it wasn't proper to do alot of things during her upbringing. She focused on her education and didn't do many fun things until she met me, and she had a kind of child like innocence sometimes. The sex was kind of boring and never frequent. Like a dumbass I didn't set the rules of the relationship right then and there. Instead I accepted IV drip sex once a month or less for all of our marriage. Even during our first year of marriage it was once every 3 or 4 weeks with me fapping to keep my needs met. I didn't imagine that it should or could be different and just accepted it...until my unhappiness led me to find the red pill.

Progress: I'm no doubt a better man, not there yet, many things to work on. Sex has increased to once every 1-2 weeks but she's really not into it, very starfish, and she would rather do oral sex than intercourse. She feels pressured to do her "wifely duties" It seems like a chore for her, another thing on the list. She has every excuse available and most recently said that she has vaginal secretions the next day that make her feel like she is wetting her pants. She really has trouble with immersion, I haven't even tried dominance (working on DEVI from SGM).

Rambo episode: I had a Rambo event about one month ago. We went on a 4 day trip for our anniversary and didn't have sex any of the nights we were there. I tried to be fun and flirty but the last night after some drinks I told her that I'm not happy with the frequency of sex, and I want my needs met (I just finished reading WISNIFG). She said I was selfish and only cared about myself. I replied with "who else is more concerned about me" and said that I can withhold my attention to her just like she can withhold sex. Yeah, rough trip home but things smoothed over after a few days. I think I scared the shit out of her but it was way too much too soon.

Problem/Question (finally): Is there such a thing as a woman who has low libido, sexual repression, or whatever? Obviously there are issues with me I need to work on, but...she has deep seated moral conditioning from her upbringing as to what a proper girl does, she was a virgin for so many years (WTF how is that even possible with a normal sex drive), and we never had that crazy newlywed animal sex. What am I up against here? I'm trying to change the rules after 15 years and sometimes doubt that I have the correct female raw material here to make into my sex goddess. Any advice is appreciated. I know...stick with the plan of making a better me, slowly up the dread, and don't give fuck about her/the relationship. Maybe my story will help someone else.

TLDR: Wondering if my wife is a special case of "low sex drive snowflake" given our history

Post Information
Title My Special Snowflake
Author TurdDoctor
Upvotes 7
Comments 45
Date 20 July 2017 11:18 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Original Link
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
WISNIFGdread gamekinoplatedominanceliftthe red pillsnowflake

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Is there something wrong with her, because I must be great!

What are you willing to invest, that's the question.

I got a friend, he had an LTR, live in, talks of marriage etc. and she was fighting some obvious demons. He told her to go talk to someone. She refused. It became a common theme for fights. He's not Redpill but has good boundaries and owns his shit. He finally told her, "Your depression is affecting us, go see someone or we're done." She refused and they broke up.

They run around in the same circle of friends and he ran into her at a party a couple months later. "Thanks" she said.

"For what?"

"I started seeing a therapist, and I realize I've got some issues I need to own"

What in the actual fuck?


She may be a great person, you may be a great person, but there comes a point when you have to ask, "Can we be great together?

Sometimes we grow and our partners want to be part of the ride. Sometimes we grow and they don't know they can be. Sometimes they don't want to be. We use the analogy of the tow rope; the ship has changed course and there's a huge rope played out behind us because of all the past crap we've done. We have to pull our First Officer in, pick up the slack, and keep course. She doesn't perceive the ships course because she's dangling behind us. She may also be kicking and screaming. Or she may very well not to even be pulled back on the boat.

Set your wife aside, and take time to improve. The rule of thumb holds true, about 1 month for every year of marriage. In your case that's 15 years of rope. Take the next however many months to get to that 15 months. At the end, you need to ask yourself the very real question, Am I better off with her or without her? It may take firing the first officer for her to realize that she's got some shit going on, but that's ok. You may be better off without each other.

[–]simbarlionRed Beret2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy

Despite what is interpreted from this site women are different and respond to different approaches (hence TRP toolbox of ideas). And despite being a slut for the right guy (which I agree with), there are big variations in what different women are like for their husband. I am sure most women (mine and your wife included) would slide across the floor in the splits for Brad Pitt, but that does not mean much to what she will be like for me. I can't turn into Brad Pitt, even if i perfect TRP - So I am not hanging out to clean up the snail trail to the bed room.But i can improve myself and use the tools that work for me.

IMHO there is too much advice to "NEXT that fucking basket case", but maybe i am not enough red pill yet.

What I learnt from here is that it doesn't matter what flavour of challenge my wife is, I still have to improve / act the same whether she is hard, soft or lesbian. It will be win win either way. Reading stories here of horny women having 3 somes after dread level 4 doesn't mean the whole population is like that... NAWALT. Yes her biology proves she could be, but using RP tools wont guarantee you get your slut. But you should be able to get the best out of her, and if you don't it will be your choice to put up with it or "NEXT that fucking basket case!" After 15 years it would take a bit to go down that route, you made it this far.

I love classic cars but I don't sell them after 15 years just because they need something fixed ("next that basket case"!), or don't go as fast as the new porsches.... Nah, I get all attached to the creaky fucking doors, temperamental carburettors, notchy shifting etc. But if you like the new models, and thin kit would add more value overall, and you have the means to get it, then you have a legit choice to make.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy

IMHO there is too much advice to "NEXT that fucking basket case

I think we need to have another talk about this advice. I am seeing it more and more and MRP was specifically created to avoid the Next That Bitch advice off the top. When we say our goal is to improve the man we mean it- and you should improve the man in the marriage first before blowing it to shit.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

you should improve the man in the marriage first before blowing it to shit.

honestly? I disagree .

not with the improving the man part. More like... there are some women who will not respond well, and even if they respond well , guys can easily just get resentful after fixing themselves.

I just think there doesn't have to be a correlation timeline unless its working for a given dude

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

there are some women who will not respond well,

True, but you can't predict very well which ones will respond well either so you have to maintain the course for a bit before you blow it up. The Original Poster here may find after a year of effort and improvement and leadership that his wife is a submissive little cock hound. He may will run into trouble, especially in the beginning and the whole Dump That Bitch routine is damaging, IMHO.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

more generally, I would save nexting basket cases for ...basket cases.

There is a reason that the term basket case is used.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy

She probably never found you that attractive. Perhaps there are women with low libidos, but all I know is that all women will act like total sluts for the right guy. She does not, and will probably never see you as that guy. Be glad you do not have kids and unless you want sex to pretty much disappear from your relationship, do not have kids. I would say give it a year, go crazy at the gym, see if you can reinvent yourself. If improvements are not dramatic then you need to decide if you are willing to live in a low sex relationship for the rest of your life. Truth is that probably neither of you are fulfilled.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (16 children) | Copy

No kids, so why are you still with her? I don't think RP is gonna turn this around for you buddy, sorry to say. She's NEVER enjoyed sex. Short of extensive therapy to uproot all of the toxic shit in her head, you're screwed. I think you're gonna have to next this one.

[–]chachaChad2 points3 points  (14 children) | Copy

Speaking as someone married to a similar women... we are currently in couples therapy and it’s becoming clear that she’s never going to be able to change.

Virgins past a certain age is a giant red flag that signals some aversion or inability to have sex.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy

Sorry to hear that man. Personally, I don't buy into the belief that ALL women will act like sluts for the right guy with no exceptions. That's probably true, in general, as long as their upbringing/environment didn't seriously fuck them up first.

[–]chachaChad0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Agreed. RP rules don’t really apply with abuse present. Over the years, I’ve encountered three women with real, significant abuse in their backgrounds and each was a shitshow in crazy ways and not in a fun way.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

I used to believe that too, then I improved my appearance, upped my game and found myself dating some of these "good/ conservative/ religious" girls. They were at least as dirty and horny as girls I had dated with massive n-counts.

[–]Blunter-S-Thompson1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

FWIW: In my experience, the more "religious or proper" a girl was raised, the nastier and wilder they would end up in the bedroom.

Some of the downright dirtiest things I've ever done was with a preachers daughter.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Not all religious girls have been brainwashed, abused or conditioned to the same degree though. Catholic girls are known freaks, that is true, but there are some who have had teachings that go well beyond what's considered healthy and normal. There's a difference between being told to "save yourself for marriage" and "sex is a sacred act" or whatever the fuck they teach (I'm not catholic so I don't really know) vs "sex is a sin!" and "you should be ashamed of yourself for having sexual thoughts!"

[–]UEMcGillI am become McGill, Destroyer of Blue Pill0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

I sat in a marriage class where two old Catholics talked about how fun it was fucking all the time (PG rated) after they got married. The only thing they said was, and I'm paraphrasing, start however you want, but finish PIV. The catholic church is pretty cool with fucking. My wife was the full monty, catholic school, etc. and none of the repression like this woman.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah my point was not that catholic girls are damage goods or anything like that. Just that, there is clearly something up with her and her negative view toward sex that no amount of self improvement he does to himself will fix. Maybe her religious upbringing is partly to blame, but without knowing exactly what she went through it's hard to say for sure.

[–]straius0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy

Couples therapy with a sex therapist? Or is it a more typical freudian school sort of thing (the normal more feminized couples therapy type of thing).

Just about to start up sex therapy for my wife (she's eager to do it) with a sex therapist that's kink aware (Mostly because I wanted to make the therapist is good). To my understanding, sex therapy usually has a couples component to it but also involves single 1 on 1 sessions since it's such a difficult topic for many.

Only problem with sex therapy is that insurance usually doesn't cover it since it's specialized and they can make enough excuses to not cover it cause you know... How important could sex really be to mental health?

[–]chachaChad0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy

SIt’s relationship therapy not sex therapy. Nobody does Freudian therapy and I wouldn’t call it feminized at all. I’ve tried therapy a number of times over the years and finally found one that works for me.

I’m really happy with the therapist. He’s even recommended some of the Red Pill required reading to me. I’ve been going for a year but we’ve only been 4 times and the wife has already said she’s never going again and that she will never have sex with me again but she wants to still be married. She pulled out that ultimatum yesterday which I laughed off.

Theoretically, if we make it through this therapy, I’m going to insist on sex therapy. The wife can’t talk about sex at all so I don’t see her willing to go to a sex therapist. The marriage probably won’t survive but the therapy looks like it might help out relationship so we can still be decent parents.

[–]straius0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Gotcha, occasional couples sessions with your therapist. Is that IMAGO relationship therapy? I was using Freudian as a generalization of psychoanalysis schools. Mainly because my memory is failing me... most couples therapy comes out of a specific school of practice called gottman or gottfried... goddfried? I can't remember. Relies heavily on reinforcing a more feminine form of communication but isn't a "feminist" school of thought per se. These therapists will commonly recommend the 5 love languages book, that sort of thing...

Yeah, I was seeing a therapist for a while when I was first considering divorce (prior to fully discovering RP) who was trained in DBT, a subset of CBT, but was fully RP aware. He was awesome.

Lol, that ultimatum... I guess that didn't take long for her to run that out to it's logical conclusion.

Sounds like sex therapy is gonna be around the corner since she may have some unhealthy attitudes about sex but likely won't be able to reach a fully open place with you since there's clearly some power struggles going on with sex that'll really fuck up getting to a sexually open place. She may be able to get past that with a therapist that specializes in sexuality.

Presuming of course she admits she is part of the problem there and actually wants to do something about it.

[–]chachaChad0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy

My guy is trained in CBT, MST, MATCH and Post Modern Structural Family Therapy so no IMAGO.

I wouldn't say he favors a more feminine form of communication at all. I read 5 love languages (horseshit) but he didn't recommend it. He recommended Care of the Soul, The Way of the Superior Man and a few others that are that I don't consider feminine at all. Honestly, what he talks about fit squarely in the red pill world.

Yea, my wife isn't ever going to get to a sexually open place with me no matter how much I'd like that and she has zero ability to her part in all this. I'm doing everything I can but as some point I either have to be with OK with who she is and still be married to her or be OK with who she is and not be married. That idea used to terrify me but not anymore.

[–]straius0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Awesome, sounds like a similar dude to who I was seeing. Lot of the same suggested reading (WISNIFG, Way of the Superior man, etc...) We may have a miscommunication, I wasn't trying to suggest you were experiencing that kind of therapist. Just adding context to my question.

Yeah, I guess i was asking these questions because I had a point where I felt the same way about my wife, but ended up being wrong.

Will she be as kinky as my ex I had an S&M relationship with? No. But I've learned she'll be able to come close, but it's not ALL on me, she has some barriers of her own to overcome but she is on board with doing her part there. But she'll need some help from someone where she doesn't get as worried about rejection, image, being clumsy when trying to be sexy (She's never "seen herself" that way before) etc...

[–]chachaChad0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Thanks for the glimmer of hope. I don't need my wife to outrageously kinky. Just can't do horrible, duty sex anymore. She's also super-mature which means she doesn't share things easily and it's really able to have very much fun in life. It's like living with a super polite aunt. She loves me but isn't really able to express it.

It's taken a year to get my wife to agree to coming to couples therapy and she just said yesterday she's never going back after the 4th appointment. While we did discuss sex in the appointment, it was in only the most innocent of ways possible and a normal person wouldn't have had an issue with it.

Of course, I'm not letting her words worry me. We'll see what she does when the next appointment roles around. RP and my year of therapy have really given me the super power to not be emotionally crushed by someone's words. I can stand up to her like a rock or an oak while she rages in her sea of anxiety and be the man I really am. That's a wonderful feeling I haven't felt in ages.

I agree that my wife would need therapy but her issues are extremely deep and complex and we're not that young. At this point, I don't believe she's capable of dealing with them head on and may never be. I'm going to provide whatever support I can as I work on myself but, in the end, she's on her own on that. She's welcome to deal or not deal with her stuff. I'm also welcome to stay or go based on my needs. Until then... I'm lifting and owning my shit!

[–]straius0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Yeah, that's all you can do really. Past your own development, it's just decision gates as they align with your own wishes. All you can do is strive to be the man you want to be and then decide what stays and what goes.

I'm 36 and my wife just turned 40. She's not as repressed so it sounds like you have a bigger challenge but the right mentality.

But that was a major point I had to figure out to decide if I was going to stay... Is she worth the work? If there's a low ceiling there, we're too old to waste our time. And that was my worry, that things would never get good enough.

Last month is when a big breakthrough happened and the sex has ticked way up in both quality and quantity as I improve. So I'm hopeful that with the sex therapist involved, things will move even faster.

Hope that happens in your court as well. But like you said, stay or go, it's the same work.

[–]rocknrollchuck1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Just so you know, my wife is sort of the same type of religious girl: brought up Catholic in Eastern Europe, virgin until married at 21, married to an abusive alcoholic and never enjoyed or wanted sex, got a divorce after he tried to kill her by throwing her down a flight of stairs when he was drunk.

I'm only the second guy she's ever been with (and for all of you that say "Sure you are!" - if you knew my wife, you would understand, she takes her faith and her sexual fidelity VERY seriously), and we waited until marriage to have sex. I've led my wife to have sex in any position, we've had sex in public, she gives blowjobs when I want, she always swallows and enjoys it, and has even gone all the way with anal (although that is something that neither of us cared for much).

Why do I write all of this? Because THERE IS HOPE!! But it all depends on YOU. Yeah, some girls are just not into sex, but I think a religious girl's repressed sexuality can be a powerful tool for sluttiness in the bedroom for the right man. Is that you?

One note: I would avoid words like slut, whore, bitch, etc. These trigger ASD (anti-slut defenses) in religious girls and will likely work against you.

[–]Big_Daddy_PDX1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Why is my Honda not as fast as a Ferrari?

Sounds like you're in a situation where you're waking up after 15yrs asleep/complacent. You chose a woman with a really strict/sheltered upbringing and you haven't put the careful time into her education to the kind of sexual relationship you want (because she's got the kind of sexual relationship she wants).

She is not gong to do any of this on her own. She will only do it when she's attracted to you AND SHE wants it. You'll. Red to spend 90% of your sexual time, focused on talking to her and touching her in ways that get her turned on before you'll see any success. This process Anne could take years.

Be aware of what relationship you'll actually be able to have with her based on what she's capable of. And then choose if it's what you want for the rest of your life. Pretty straightforward really.

[–]AustralianArm1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Virgin till 27, very Catholic family...

** shudder **

[–]askmeanything21 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

She is either asexual or lesbian


[–]rebbit_reddit0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy

Look up karezza. Non goal oriented sex in which orgasm Is avoided. It goes against red pill teachings but I had some success using it on my ex long before I found rp. Went from once a week to daily when she was willing to try it

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Non goal oriented sex in which orgasm Is avoided.

I get not pressuring her to cum, but what is the possible advantage to depriving him? Is this some Tantric, save your life force up thing?

[–]rebbit_reddit0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

If you do it the way it's taught, it's basically tantric sex with the mysticism removed. When I did it with the ex, I came and she didn't. It was actually more tease and denial for her as I would repeatedly take her to the edge of cumming but not let her cum. It takes the pressure off her to orgasm and actually makes her want to cum even more because she's "not allowed to". Done for days in a row, she was hornier than usual and wanting sex every night. Was wet from beginning to end. Add in a bit of dominance and it would probably turn a woman into a submissive slut pretty quickly

[–]McLuhanSaidItFirst0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The theory (supposedly backed up by Science) is that orgasm produces a boom/bust physiology of dopamine surges and crashes. Kind of reminds me of blood sugar fluctuations the way they talk about it. Without the drastic ups and downs, the partners stay engaged and always ready, willing and able to have gentle, slowly moving or still genital contact which can go on for hours in a dreamy state of intensely sexual and affectionate bonding. According the the author of Peace Between the Sheets, people for whom it works have way more sex, and better quality sex, and arguments disappear.


[–]McLuhanSaidItFirst0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

karezza... goes against red pill teachings

how does it go against? Asking for a friend.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

she has deep seated moral conditioning from her upbringing as to what a proper girl does.

I think you can safely kill her Jesus Shit Goblin and nuke this bullshit. A proper Christian girl OBEYS HER HUSBAND. If she does that then there should be no other problems.

Your task is to learn seduction.

Low sex drive snowflake

Nope. Kill your own hamster while your at it.

[–]screechhaterRed Beret0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Change your MRP name itd revolting.

I'm wondering what your revolting elephant in the room revolting behavior with SO is ?

Read dread.

Just FYI. You can't fix brainwashed unless she wants to fix herself.

You will get some changes, but she is entrenched and the sexual repression she witnessed is your uphill battle.

It's no fun fapping fir your needs. Do you want this forever ? This is the ultimate question

[–]TurdDoctor[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

I wish I could change my MRP name- but I'd rather not lose my post history for those that may look back on it. Sometimes I feel like I have alot of shit thrown my way, have to diagnose and treat it, hence the name, and I am an actual doctor of sorts. But the name is totally immature and not helpful to my cause.

I am re-reading the professor's book and slowing things down with the understanding that I should give it one month/year marriage. I've come to realize that she also has serious work stress and difficulty relaxing. She got a gift card for a massage last year and HATED the massage. She can't relax and doesn't like anyone touching her. I've always liked a challenge and I really think this is a big one. I know that I can't solve her problems but I can point her in the right direction, improve myself, and see if she wants to follow. Either way, it a better me.

[–]McLuhanSaidItFirst0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

She feels pressured to do her "wifely duties" It seems like a chore for her, another thing on the list. She has every excuse available and most recently said that she has vaginal secretions the next day that make her feel like she is wetting her pants.

She is wet (sexually aroused) the next day (still? again)?

No one else has noticed this detail AFAIK, so I'll chime in, because I have personal experience with this phenomenon (if I understand the situation correctly). It seems like a crucial detail.

Here are some suggestions and questions.

It could be that you are awakening her sexually and she is confused and disoriented. The wetness could mean that her body is responding the way it is supposed to, and that it means she is pair bonding to you sexually.

You never awakened her fully and completely when you were newlyweds, and things petered out from there... Now that you have found RP and are becoming more sexual with her, she has nowhere to run. She is becoming aroused by you and that leads her to feeling conflicted.

What if you show her by your actions that it's wonderful that she's wet the next day ( look pleased or whatever works on this woman), because you love her and are so happy to be with her through this? Seems odd that it would be happening so long after you are married but if it took you this long to catch on to RP dynamics, then why would either of you be surprised that she is taking a long time to catch on?

I am suggesting this is the 1,000 foot tow line in action. It is a parallel process to your RP awakening. Men have a sex drive that initiates, and women have a sex drive that responds to sexiness in a man. I'd say she needs from you: loads of comfort and to continue to initiate in a loving manner and everything will right itself eventually. I think it looks like she is making progress. Love her.

Don't talk about Fight Club. What I mean is, there's probably nothing to be gained from explaining it to her, that will just seem like you're trying to sell her on it, and make her self conscious about the process. She perhaps could simply become more sexual over time in a natural progression. Talk with her about it if she brings it up, but it's really her trip to experience and verbalize at her own pace. And take advantage of her monthly cycle to seduce her in the fertile phase; you could make a lot of progress quickly.

"There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries. On such a full sea are we now afloat. And we must take the current when it serves, or lose our ventures." Julius Caesar Act 4, scene 3

The only other thing I could imagine would be exposing her somehow to a sex-positive priest/laywoman/Catholic author/Catholic Marriage Encounter for the two of you. Also there are many Catholics who are sex-positive who are active in teaching the Sympto-Thermal Method of Natural Family Planning. They have lots of sex, outside the fertile phase, unless wanting kids. I'm suggesting leading her into thinking about it and then following up with her feelings without trying to logic her into it.

I really want to see how this plays out. Good luck to both of you.

[–]ReddJiveRed Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

special case of "low sex drive snowflake"

Well aren't you a fat fuck. Look at that hamster run.

In short such a woman doesn't exist.

Women want sex, but for some damn reason they have this shit built in their heads where they shouldn't want to. On top of that Women can be sexual camels. They will have sex for the right guy, but that guy has to be attractive. Now that really be a range of things Obviously because women fuck some really messed guys at times.

The easiest trait to work on is physical. Every man can lift. Every man can diet. And all women love a well built man. Besides it's good for discipline. But remember you have to build the soft traits as well. Be interesting, be knowledgable about a range of topics, be adventurous and daring.

Yet a woman must feel safe, secure, and find you creditable. She wants to know you aren't going to fuck her and leave her pregnant in the woods alone.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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