709,179 posts

Blindsided at Therapist last night

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September 16, 2016
11 upvotes

Pertinent background: Had seen a marriage counsellor off and on for several years with the wife (pre-RP days). For the past year wife has been seeing same therapist on her own to deal with her OCD and other issues. Wife asked me to come to the next appointment with her to give my take on how things are progressing. I set the expectation with wife that we would use this appointment to discuss strategies for her to cope with her OCD as I am going to be clearing out her clutter from the house in 2 weeks time.

Session: It did not go well, I was not in frame and I was asked to give my thoughts on how things are progressing. I said that I do see that things are changing but not to my satisfaction. Asked to explain I pointed out that Task wife is responsible for was finally completed but that it was completed 3 weeks after the promised to complete date.

Wife begins with shit and comfort tests. She starts explaining that she was done task by due date but it wasn't her fault it didn't get finalized because of outside problems, then begins the water works. Saying that I don't see that she is trying, all I see is that she didn't complete task on time and don't give her praise for the effort she put in. Then my train totally ran off the rails;

Total DEER Failure: I got caught off-guard and ended up DEERing the whole fucking thing, I did every part of the Acronym thanks for the help on that /u/BluepillProfessor and /u/Bread_Pilled.

  • Defend - I started by defending my actions that I did give her praise when the task was actually completed, I will only give praise when praise is due.
  • Explain - Then I use a fucking metaphor to explain myself, "My boss doesn't give me praise just for sitting at my desk, I get it when the project is delivered well and on time".
  • Evade - I try to shift the blame back onto wife, that her excuses are just excuses this task should have been completed 9 months ago, I gave her an additional month and she still came in 3 weeks late.
  • Rationalize - Finally I try to get back into some semblance of a frame, but instead I start to rationalize the whole thing back for her to see my point of view, etc. etc.

Fallout: What happened next was exactly what you experienced MRPers would expect, she saw that my shield was down and she started firing with everything she had. She is trying but I don't see or care, She is making progress but I only care about results, and finally that I am acting conceited and being a dick. Obviously need to learn more about AM. Luckily her 20 minute diatribe gave me time to regroup and pull my shit together.

The rest of the session I kept to STFU and only very short answers when asked. This worked a lot better and I wish I had this frame going in. So now I am so spun around after this meeting any ideas on how to get this train back on track. I am in the middle of reading WISNIFG, already read NMMNG and MMSLP.

Open to all of your criticism, I truly need it because that was a total fuck up.


Post Information
Title Blindsided at Therapist last night
Author CasperTFG_808
Upvotes 11
Comments 42
Date 16 September 2016 02:57 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit askMRP
Link https://theredarchive.com/post/207095
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/askMRP/comments/532abu/blindsided_at_therapist_last_night/
Similar Posts

Red Pill terms found in post:
WISNIFGDEERframecomfort testNMMNG
Comments

[–]ParadoxThatDrivesUs22 points23 points  (4 children) | Copy

Wife: Shit test.

You: DEER.

Wife: Shit test intensifies.

Therapist: I feel like we had a real breakthrough today.

[–]BluepillProfessorMod / Red Beret6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy

Yep, all they do is egg on the shit tester and reinforce chore play. Fuck marriage therapy. If anything else had this poor a record the entire profession would be disbanded and the hucksters jailed.m Pure Duluth model nonsense.

[–]WhiteTrashKillerRed Beret7 points8 points  (12 children) | Copy

You're missing the point. Deering is something that makes you feel better about your situation, something used to rationalize an outcome already predetermined. DO YOU FEEL BETTER? Yeah, thought so!

It depends on how it was delivered, but I see nothing wrong with stating your expectations, as you did, that she will receive praise upon completion(I would of withheld it for being late). Your example is spot on for a man's point of view(which all that matters), but you need kid gloves for your wife? Fcuk that!.

You fell slightly out of frame, because you weren't expecting to be bullied, blindsided and ganged up on. Now you know, she is at the last of her rope enlisting all her assets to get back to status quo. Break her or leave are the only two options......

First things first! Fuck counseling! Fuck it! Fuck it in it's Blue Pilled Fucking Ass! Got it? Stop that shit now, like fucking yesterday! If she wants to go, so be it! You are not required to be a part of her unfucking!

[–]red_blue_and_hot5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy

Finish WISNIFG, and make every therapy session all about fogging and negative inquiry. You aren't there to make judgments on her progress. It isn't the time or the place. Hell, she isn't even there for judgment in her progress - she's there to get her feelz out and get validated by the therapist.

Handle expectations outside of her therapy, and focus on specific actions instead of an overarching "cure OCD" target.

You already know not to DEER, and to STFU. This was just a learning experience. Everyone fucks up. Don't beat yourself up over it. Just learn from it and move forward.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy

Ha! You fucking idiot!

Why the hell you didn't walk out of there and laugh, I'll never know. Went to the Parent teacher conference, the kid had a temper tantrum on the floor, and you tell the teacher your life story?

Serves you right.

dude, if you're spending a few hundred an hour for this quack to help your wife blame you for the world, you could pay some her mother half as much to the same effect. Worry about her, I'll worry about me, doc.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Don't be too hard on yourself.

Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment. Reflect, then chalk this one up as a lesson learned.

[–]Alpha_Rising1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy

I have yet to hear of a marriage therapist who the couple thought was actually helpful.

[–]mistaken4alpha1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

We burned through the first one quickly. The second has been pretty useful. My main event was our marriage councillor agreeing with me that a separation was the right thing for my and my kids mental health. She flat out said I was correct and enthusiasticly suggested we come up with a trial separation plan to discuss next week. My wife was devastated that the up till that point very impartial marriage therapist agreed with me. The lying, blaming everyone but herself, screaming at me and the kids for no reason, claiming I was the one with a personality disorder symptoms, etc stopped during that session. She's taken her individual therapy seriously and I've gotten a lot of spontaneous apologies over the last year.

[–]sh0ckley1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy

Noob gains when I took two steps forward, and later one back and so on...

https://reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/4k5uvj/mrp_killed_the_marriage_counselor/

[–]nightmancommeth0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

You know what you did wrong. My only advice would be to come read a bit here before the next session or reread this post. To help maintain your frame.

Dont let yourself get dragged into her frame or drama. STFU worked so stick to it. Keep on bettering yourself and not worry about the outside factors.

[–]Stockrose0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Just a question: How long are you giving her to change herself?

[–]CasperTFG_808[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy

Did not will not give her a timeframe. A time frame will only serve one purpose for her to try hard until then and then cry that I didn't give her enough time.

Instead I told her she needs to get her shit together now, meanwhile I am working on my MAP and as I learn more and apply more RP things will naturally take their course.

I have stated to her that I spent 15 years hearing I promise it will get better I am not prepared to spend any more time waiting. I am mentally prepared to leave I am starting to take my life and finances back. The more independence I gain the more dread she feels.

[–]RPAlternate42Red Beret0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

The second E in DEER isn't "evade" it's EXCUSE.

Never try to Excuse your behavior (usually by way of apologies where none are due.) You said/did something that has right and merit and shouldn't be backpedaled upon because someone's FeelZTM got hurt.

A similar acronym is "JADE"

  • Justify
  • Argue
  • Defend
  • Explain

Rememebr that when you DEER or JADE you are validating what the other person says as having merit and weight... if it was literally nonsense, you wouldn't need to defend or explain anything.

DEERing and JADEing is validation where none is due.

Never do it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Any joint sessions with a therapist always go something like this.

H is asked to comment on W's "progress" or his "observations".

H gives honest, dispassionate observation or progress report, and offers criticism of W.

W immediately becomes hostile and starts shit testing.

If that fails, W starts with comfort testing, accompanied immediately with crying. W knows to do this because everyone reflexively comforts a weeping, crying, sobbing woman.

W also knows that crying deflects and shuts down all hostility towards her and expectations of her. Whenever a woman cries, everything IMMEDIATELY stops to address woman's emotional "needs".

H must then start DEERing because if W is crying, it's because H made her cry. H hurt her. He must DEER and justify why he did what he did to make her cry.

You can't win in a therapy situation. You just can't.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

we're a pretty standard analogy here.

the best defense is a good offense. this is what happened to you today.

if you're being attacked, take a moment to think whether or not going offensive is worthwhile to you.

Task wife is responsible for was finally completed but that it was completed 3 weeks after the promised to complete date.

Wife begins with shit and comfort tests. She starts explaining that she was done task by due date but it wasn't her fault it didn't get finalized because of outside problems, then begins the water works.

"That's not the point is it. The point is it was 3 weeks lake. The point is you didn't finish. And the point is, irrespective of what effort you put in, which I did see, it was 3 weeks late on something that you clearly claimed was your responsibility. How do you expect me to build faith, to build trust, or to value your efforts when your efforts don't match the promises you make? Sure - you might not have been fully been responsible, but from where I sit all I see is that it's 3 weeks late. Let's not pretend that there's absolutely no way that you couldn't have done more to get the project finalized faster. It might have taken more work. It could have been intimidating. But to pretend it was impossible and you were totally helpless - I don't buy it."

[–]CasperTFG_808[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Sounds strong on paper but for me it would fail. The responses flying would be, "what more could I have done explain it", weep, cry etc. You guys helped me see a lot from this interaction and from what I now understand my place in this is.

  1. not to go to these sessions with her anymore
  2. If I do go I need to just STFU

The other thing I learned this week is that I suck at AM, when I try, it comes out as sarcasm and is then perceived as me belittling her. I need to wait and learn more before getting to AM and stick to STFU.

Yesterday W comes out of the shower, shows me she manicured her fields and says that my attitude has been so much better towards her today and it's a turn on. I think to myself I haven't done anything in fact I've hardly talked at all today and then it clicked. I STFU and let her hamster away without reaction to the hamster. If a question was asked there was no attempt at AM or even AA, just STFU and one word replies, yes or no.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

For me, the point is that if you're going to attack, I'm going to win.

[–]cholomiteMod / BP Downvote Magnet0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Next time just shut the fuck up from the start. Women don't communicate with words, that's why therapy is pointless. You already get why and how you fucked up, so there's nothing you can do but move forward. Don't sweat it too hard, everyone fucks up. Recognize that women are a reflection of their man, so even though feminists and society say that women are their own strong independent women, all women secretly know it's bullshit, including your wife. That's why they never accept blame for anything, because in the end it's your fault for letting it get that way.

When my gf let's her shit slide I just handle it myself. I clean and organized my apartment when it gets too messy and cluttered because I always want to be prepared to be a single bachelor again. If I kick my girl to the curb at 4pm I want to be able to have a new girl over at 6. I can't do that if I have to spend all day cleaning a messy apartment.

As far as the next therapy appointment, if you do go, keep shit as simple as possible. Don't blame her for anything. The only person you have control over is yourself. Pick your goals, decide how you will get there and do it as simply as possible and don't buckle under the pressure.

[–]CasperTFG_808[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

Recognize that women are a reflection of their man... & That's why they never accept blame for anything, because in the end it's your fault for letting it get that way.

Those are words to live by. Later in the session another shit test was thrown at me. Wife was upset that when she came to me with her diet plan of how she was going to lose 30 lbs by Christmas I shit all over it. I didn't actually shit all over it, I asked her a question about her diet plan then I quickly realized she did not want my help with her plan she just wanted daddy to be proud of her.

Therapist asked me to respond, I owned up; "I mistakenly thought she wanted my input, I was wrong my feedback was not wanted, I should have just encouraged her instead of trying to add value".

Funny enough, even though the Therapist is a woman she gave me an acknowledging nod at my response, she understands that women will hamster the man's job is to listen/smile/nod not to rationalize or talk.

[–]cholomiteMod / BP Downvote Magnet2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

It's tough to internalize and takes awhile. Just remember, women naturally have a desire to submit to a strong alpha male. So when you're trying to explain how frustrated you are that she's not meeting your expectations, all she hears is "wahh wahh wahh boo hoo I'm a weak man who can't handle his woman". She literally has zero concern for male weakness, including your weak ability to control and handle her.

[–]RecoveringBPAddict0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy

Dude, I'm right there with you as a pussy faggot. We are going on 2 years of therapy and it's gotten us no where. Last session was supposed to be a self accountability session where we were to list things we were responsible for and wanted to rectify and she lead with "I didn't put enough effort into this for (list whatever reason) and I should probably do a better job of this at a future date."

WTF? It was my last hope that there might be some self accountability and assessment on her part and it only turned out to be 1) a half assed effort and 2) turned around to why it's my fault.

It was good in that I no longer have any expectation that she can/will execute a valid self assessment and now (if I continue going) it will only be as an opportunity to practice frame and shit test passing in a controlled environment where wife can't be a total asshole. The therapist is pretty fair and wife wants to be thought of as a good person.

Other than that, I'm too new to give any advice, but I feel you about being a pussy faggot.

[–]PersaeusRed Beret2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy

We are going on 2 years of therapy and it's gotten us no where.

You have the right to stop going you know, right? Stop digging

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Jesus. I'll tell you what - you pay me 1/10th of your bill for the last 2 years and I guarantee you 1 personalized response to whatever bullshit you want ever week. I'll also guarantee that my bullshit will make your life better than what your therapist did.

[–]CasperTFG_808[S] -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy

OMG dude that sounds brutal. I am fortunate in that our therapist is an old fashion type and sees through the bullshit my wife puts up and often times is the one holder her to task, last night she even said "Well you are a SAHM that is your job during the day while your husband is working at his job".

Coming out of the session the only task we had to do was to schedule out responsibilities between us which I think will work well. Wife seems to think I don't pull my weight with the house/kids, I think the opposite.

We started on this task last night, and my list of what I do was twice the length of hers. I started moving things from my list over to her list, she got pissy and said she was tired. LOL No problem, I will work on the list and division of labor myself and let her know when it's done.

[–]bornredd0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy

Well you are a SAHM that is your job during the day while your husband is working at his job

Wife seems to think I don't pull my weight with the house/kids, I think the opposite.

If you're providing ALL of the monetary input and she is providing zero, your contribution to the household chores should be negligible. Raise your kids, because they need a father. But you shouldn't be expected to do any of the bullshit housework when she's a SAHM. She's got 40+ hours a week to handle all that shit when you're not around, and the rest of the time if she needs your assistance with something.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy

shouldn't isn't a word in the manosphere. IS is more apt.

OP should have his shit on lock 100%. Wifey unfortunately, has until he figures it out to see how she's being edged out of the household.

He doesn't need her around (or shouldn't) time to put on big girl panties, before she gets thrown out of the house like Dino

[–]bornredd0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

shouldn't isn't a word in the manosphere. IS is more apt.

You are 100% correct, I was being a slacker.

[–]weakandsensitive0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Oh. you're doing this to yourself. I got it now. Carry on.

[–]SexistFlyingPig0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy

Therapy is all about your wife. It's about making your wife feel good.



You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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