Is "sexual market failure" related to Protestantism?

SkookumTree · 2017-08-03T12:22:34+00:00

Eh. I grew up Catholic, in Massachusetts, surrounded by other white, working-class Catholics, and a lot of what TRP describes is completely foreign to me. u/LewisCross and I have discussed this a little bit. The kind of weird Protestant upbringing he had is nothing like what I experienced in the Northeast during the same period of time. (Catholics raising their sons to be "gentlemanly," though? Ha ha ha ha ha. Yes, Massachusetts shanty Irish trash and Maine Quebecois on parles are well known for their gentlemanly manners.)

But my husband grew up in a UMC (some here think UC) WASPy family in the Midwest, complete with multi-generational boarding school/sailing camp legacy et al, and Lewis' upbringing is also completely and totally foreign to him, as well. Neither Mr. Arthur nor his boarding school/sailing camp friends has ever had to deal with the kind of sex-is-bad foolishness that is commonly associated with some Protestant denominations.

I think that, as with many things (at least in the US), this issue is also related to SES. You'll find the sex-is-bad stuff among my mother's Oklahoma, working-class, evangelical family, but not among the WASP upper crust. And you won't find too much of it among MC/WC Catholics at all. (I don't know any American Catholics whose SES is analogous to Mr. Arthur's, and so can't speak for them.)

pragmatic_ancap · 2017-08-03T08:51:00+00:00

Unless Catholicism makes women wanna fuck low-value men I don't think the different denominations of Christianity have anything to do with the complaints about the sexual market.

Pope_Lucious · 2017-08-03T09:56:33+00:00

What do you mean by "sexual market failure"? What are your metrics for this claim of "failure"?

couldbemage · 2017-08-03T12:07:15+00:00

If you wish to lead a hedonistic lifestyle (which sleeping around is) then quite plainly the majority of religions are going to hinder you.

Sarmatian_Spy · 2017-08-03T12:55:35+00:00

I come from one of those non-Protestant countries and...nah, I don't think so. There may be a grain of truth here: many Catholic and Orthodox cultures still raise men with certain helpful values and attitudes, like a vague spirit of machismo. But this may not be directly linked to the specific type of Christianity, it's more to do with overall culture.

There is some contrast and cultural distance with the Protestant West, but it doesn't look nearly as huge from over here. And this distance may grow even smaller over time, due to economic and social factors. And because everyone and their mom seems to be looking for inspiration in the West.

storffish · 2017-08-03T14:40:36+00:00

I would say baptism, absolutely. If you are a devout baptist, male or female, you ain't having sex, even if you want to. On top of them wanting to date while being celibate, and demanding this of ALL their partners, they want you to go to church and marry them all within 6 months.

Most Christians ain't about that life either.

[deleted] · 2017-08-03T19:55:16+00:00

I think Protestant culture and attitudes toward sex is part of the reasons for sexual market failure. But that doesn't fully explain the current state of affairs.

I think your observations in the OP are generally true. Protestants take a more stoic, legalistic, rules-based, Biblical literalism attitude toward sex. Any kind of sex outside marriage is sinful and evil; sex in marriage is for procreation only; men are to love wives unconditionally; women's respect/submission for men is optional and conditional on a number of things, not the least of which is women's feelings and emotions and the man's "Godliness" and performance. And culturally, that has set the stage for a lot of what's going on.

There's more to it though: the convergence of feminism and its evolving attitude toward men and sex. Women's liberation and the sexual revolution, and the gravitation of women toward very attractive men. Women's concealment and fraud about their own sexual natures while at the same time demonizing and criminalizing men's sexual natures. The active efforts to change male sexual nature, including the touting of the Sensitive New Age Guy as "sexually attractive". The touting of Alan Alda and Woody Allen as "sex symbols".

I also think it's true that Catholics, despite all the official positions the Church has taken, individually have a much better understanding of male and female sexual nature. They understand the importance of masculinity and femininity and sexual dimorphism. They understand looks and physical appearance are important. They understand sex is important to men and women. That just didn't seem to take cultural hold - what DID get into mainstream culture was the stereotype of the "easy" and "wild" Catholic girl.

[deleted] · 2017-08-03T18:08:25+00:00

I don't think it has much to do with following the cultural norms. But certainly, there's an aspect of religion which has always emphasized "submitting" to religious orthodoxy and God. When you look at that from power dynamics POV, it's no wonder that certain men turned out naturally 'beta' and others who refused, in some way, to submit to God would be considered 'alpha.'

You can tie this into several aspects of religion, to Lucifer having his own kingdom, whatever...people who created religion definitely knew what they were doing.

There are tons of Catholics/Protestants who follow the cultural norms and could still be considered 'alpha.' They just don't submit to theology in the same way that the 'betas' would.

But yeah, I came to a similar conclusion a couple of years ago. You can look at the world through a few prisms, but the most relevant are always power, sex and religion.

sunkindonut149 · 2017-08-03T19:51:19+00:00

Why does being outside the Hajnal line / anglo protestant culture / western european marriage pattern have paradoxical effects when American or English people visit or engage with these cultures?

Some countries discussed here are outside the hajnal line but aren't seen in the same light. Japan and Syria are non hajnal.

Rico Suave / Incel
Alpha / Omega
Repressed / Sexy
Latin lovers / Indian race troll
Puritanical / Exotic sex

cxj · 2017-08-04T03:47:38+00:00

Wtf, Catholics are notorious for all kinds of sexual hang ups Christianity just sucks all around but at least it's not Islam

Entropy-7 · 2017-08-04T13:09:08+00:00

Not all Catholics are created equal. Certainly in the political realm, Ireland and Portugal are different than Quebec and Brazil. Even the Philippines - a prime sex tourist destination - is, along with Vatican City - the only jurisdiction where divorce is not legal.

Given that the USA was founded by Puritans, maybe the contrast with comparatively liberal Canada is no surprise. And the west coast, being the farthest you can get away from the federal capital of the respective countries without heading out into the Pacific, doesn't strike me as a hot bed of puritanism (although you can get the FLDS types out there).

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Doom_and-Gloom · 2017-08-03T11:13:31+00:00

It's more to do with them being developed, First World countries where women don't feel a pressing need to pair up than anything to do with religion.

GinSmokeLies · 2017-08-03T14:34:50+00:00

BTW I also think this is the reason why Western feminism will never take hold in countries like Russia.

no, its because in Russia, him not beating you is a good thing, and him beating you means he loves you.

prodigy2throw · 2017-08-03T15:23:09+00:00

I'm filtering your posts out

[deleted] · 2017-08-03T18:17:30+00:00

Protestants like to deemphasize bodily pleasures and have a more puritanical attitude towards sex, which many internalize.

Not exactly. Protestants believe that sex is a gift from God, which is meant to be enjoyed-- but only within the context of marriage.

pinkgoldrose · 2017-08-03T08:42:04+00:00

Isn't because (broadly generalizing) Protestants are more greedy and selfish whereas Catholics are more about sharing and equality?

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2011/10/31/catholics-more-inclined-to-share-wealth-than-protestants-euro-central-bank-says/

I'd say generally, Protestant-heritage societies are more focused on individualism, wealth accumulation, hard work... amounting to a group who probably cares a lot about status and what they can get out of a relationship.

Catholic-heritage societies may have a greater focus on humility, giving away your money to the poor, empathy...

Of course there would be differences inside each culture and of course I'm no expert on religion or society so I may be full of shit.

Title	Is "sexual market failure" related to Protestantism?
Author	pragmatic_ancap
Upvotes	9
Comments	109
Date	August 3, 2017 8:05 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/6rav5w/is_sexual_market_failure_related_to_protestantism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-sexual-market-failure-related-to-protestantism.266633 https://theredarchive.com/post/266633

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