CMV: Women must work harder to maintain their SMV

ThorLives · 2015-09-12T02:29:29+00:00

I know the counter argument will be "well men work harder on their careers". Really? How much harder does the average male work on his career? Young women actually outearn young men and are more educated.

I'm not going to use the "men work harder on their careers" argument, but it's worth noting that a higher percentage of men than women work 50+ hours a week, so that argument is not without merit.

"Among all workers surveyed in 2002, more than 17 percent of men overworked compared with nearly 7 percent of women." http://www.nbcnews.com/id/31428859/ns/health-mens_health/t/more-dads-working-long-hours-study-confirms/

.

It also ignores the fact that according to studies looks are 16 times more important to women than status so men would have to be significantly more successful to compensate for this disparity which is clearly not the case.

Source?

Men on the manosphere frequently complain about how Western women are unkempt and fat, conveniently ignoring the fact that a larger proportion of men are overweight and out of shape

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Women are more likely than men to be obese. Men are more likely than women to be overweight. However, when they base this on BMI (the "overweight" label is based on BMI), rather than body fat percentage, the whole thing is stupid. Here's why the "overweight" measure is stupid: it's based on height versus weight. Based on my height and weight, I'm borderline overweight (i.e. a BMI of 25 or higher). However, the reason I'm borderline overweight is because I'm muscular. I have 13% body fat - which means I would have to double my body fat (to 25%) to be considered obese based on my body-fat percentage.

"According to the American Council on Exercise, male athletes typically range from 6 percent to 13 percent body fat. Female athletes range from 14 percent to 20 percent... Compare these numbers to the typical fit man who ranges from 13 percent to 17 percent or woman who ranges from 20 percent to 25 percent." http://www.livestrong.com/article/188526-what-is-the-typical-body-fat-percentage-for-an-elite-athlete/

In context, what this means is that I have the body-fat percentage right on the edge between "typical fit man" and "male athlete". Yet, based on my BMI, I'm right on the edge of being "overweight". WTF, right?

In fact, lots of athletes are categorized as "overweight" based on their BMI. It's stupid.

"If you apply a widely used criterion [BMI] to the published heights and weights of NBA players, nearly half qualify as overweight." http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/03/08/athlete-study-exposes-flaw-bmi-obesity-measure.html

Even worse, when body fat percentages are used to categorize obesity, the dividing line is 25% body fat for men is obese, and 35% body fat for women is obese. Despite being given an extra 10% before they cross the obese line, there is a higher percentage of obese women than men. See the recent article NY Times, where they explain this. You can also notice from the charts that women are a lot more likely to have high body fat percentage compared to men: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/cp/summer-of-science-2015/latest/how-often-is-bmi-misleading

I also think that women have it quite a bit easier than men. It's not hard to go out to a club or bar and see this in action. I was out at a club last weekend, and I saw one girl get hit on by 4 men within a span of 20 minutes. Basically, any time she was not standing near a guy, there was some guy walking up and trying to have a conversation with her. I've seen this kind of thing on numerous occasions - once an attractive girl walks in the door of a club or bar, she don't even have to try. Guys are stumbling over themselves or standing around awkwardly trying to figure out when/how to approach her. It's annoying to see women treated like minor celebrities when I don't know of any men who can get anywhere near that amount of attention. Perhaps if a guy was famous, he could get that kind of attention.

Edit: By the way, I do agree that women put effort into stuff like makeup, which men don't have to do.

TheGreasyPole · 2015-09-12T09:05:42+00:00

It's interesting isn't it.

When you ask women whether makeup and/or other bodily maintenance and/or clothes are related to attracting men... They flat out baldly tell you "No it isn't. We do that for ourselves".

Whenever we've had a thread on that subject every single woman, including my own wife, falls over themselves to tell me that this is not about men but "feeling good about themselves" and they roll out all the times they did it "for an all girl party" and claim that proves its not about SMV or men.

So when you say to them.... Are you trying to impress men with this work ? (I.e. Are you improving your SMV) They tell me No.

So, according to womens own self reports these activities aren't SMV improving. They're doing it for other reasons, and the SMV improvement is a side effect.

So, if you believe what women say then you must be wrong. It seems almost no women put any effort into SMV at all. None. Or so y'all tell us.

UNLESS.... You phrase the question this way.... "Who are the lazy ones regarding SMV improvement".... And SUDDENLY all the same women come out of the woodwork to claim all those hours ARE SMV improvement and so THEY DO put lots of time into it.

It's almost as if...... You shouldn't listen to what women say, but observe what they do.

Now. I've said this before. And the women always tell me that's wrong, wrong, wrong. They know what they're about. I should listen to how they describe it.

So which way are you jumping OP ?

Are you going to believe the women's words.... And accept that makeup, clothes, looking good, and all the rest "are for them, not to impress males" ? In which case, men put way more effort into SMV.

Or are you going to judge them by action instead ?

Because if it's the former.... It's not even close.... Women seem to spend 0 time improving their SMV. Men admit spending LOADS of time on this.

As a bonus question, can I ask you if you understand now why we generally say not to judge a woman by what she says her motivation is, but by her actions ?

Can you see how your description of your motivation changed with the wind ? That, clearly, you don't really honestly describe why you are doing it if you give one reason in one thread, and another in another, and both paint you in the best possible light ?

[deleted] · 2015-09-12T02:48:55+00:00

The fact is, most women spend significantly more time on their appearance.

Yes, most men don't do enough. And the men that do, no one knows it.

I shave everyday (of course), lift 3 days a week, play basketball on the weekends all year round, casual coed softball in the summers, trim my junk, pluck my unruly eyebrows, moisturize, wear sunscreen, take care of the occasional zit/acne, trim the nose hair, shave the back my neck (It gets crazy), go to the barber twice a month, and I take pride in the fit and clothes I wear. Whether I'm playing ball, going to the movies, or in church I'm dressed appropriately and look good.

Non of that is hard

Do I talk about all of the shit I do in public, or around women? No. It's magic. I keep my BF at 9-12% and make it look easy even though I'm tired of eating grilled chicken for the 4th time this week.

If we are weighing what I do versus what my girl does, it's about the same. I just don't wear makeup and have soft skin.

I know the counter argument will be "well men work harder on their careers". Really? How much harder does the average male work on his career? Young women actually outearn young men and are more educated.

Men really aren't attracted to how much a woman makes and by a woman making more money she raises her expectations of what the man she is with should be, even though he really doesn't care how much her peers respect her.

It also ignores the fact that according to studies looks are 16 times more important to women than status so men would have to be significantly more successful to compensate for this disparity which is clearly not the case.

The average woman isn't going after the average man.

Men on the manosphere frequently complain about how Western women are unkempt and fat, conveniently ignoring the fact that a larger proportion of men are overweight

The difference isn't significant enough to suggest women are working harder on their weight and men aren't trying to fuck other men so of course they ignore it.

the average woman puts more time, effort, and money into grooming than the average man.

Yes, but its harder to be an attractive man than it is to be an attractive woman by virtue of the necessity to build muscle mass and not use makeup

dakru · 2015-09-12T01:52:37+00:00

It also ignores the fact that according to studies looks are 16 times more important to women than status so men would have to be significantly more successful to compensate for this disparity which is clearly not the case.

Could you provide a link? That's a contentious claim and I think the vague "according to studies" probably won't satisfy most people.

[deleted] · 2015-09-12T03:06:07+00:00

Once again a woman conflates the issue because she doesn't really want the truth.

A woman's job has almost nothing to do with whether a man wants to fuck her or not. Sorry, but we don't go out and say, "That landwhale doctor is so hawt!"

I'm not saying that some men might not learn to love women for their career choice. Rather, until women start wining and dining men and using their financial resources to privilege men then men will have no incentive to ever give a fuck about your job or consider it part of your SMV.

Women invest in work out of purely selfish reasons. They want to support themselves, but more importantly they think it entitles them to an even more successful future mate. ie. Hypergamy.

I agree that women invest more time in their appearance. Unfortunately for women, there aren't a lot of other things they bring to the table. A man is attracted to a woman by her looks, but what he falls in love with is entirely different. Sadly, women don't bring much else to the table. Most can't cook, clean, or be pleasant and most don't want to try. So then, without the domestic service, and with many women investing in their career for their own ego and expecting more resources to go to them during the marriage and especially during the divorce; what else do women have?

Women invest more in their looks because this is the last gender role that feminists haven't destroyed.

Men invest more in their career. We work longer hours, and more of those hours are likely to be at night, on weekends, out in the rain and snow and sun and doing dirty dangerous jobs that most women refuse to do.

"It also ignores the fact that according to studies looks are 16 times more important to women than status so men would have to be significantly more successful to compensate for this disparity which is clearly not the case."

This statement is why women have such a hard time with math. One does not affect the other. Just because looks are 16 times more important to women doesn't have anything to do with how status affects men. What's more is that "status" doesn't do shit for women. Your job and income isn't a factor that most men consider when we are looking for a woman. We might consider it if we think about LTR or marriage but that's only because we don't want to get divorce raped.

Further, it is inappropriate to use the word "fact" in the same sentence with "according to studies". This is especially so when those studies are quoted or performed by feminists.

Be that as it may, it stands to reason that looks are more important to women. What else do you bring to the table?

Men can bring looks, stability, income, status, physical strength, and a bunch of other things.

And women bring looks. Looks, which by the way, begin to decline rapidly past age 30. Or put another way, losing your looks is 16 times more destructive to women than men. How you like them apples?

So then, women's looks are a depreciating asset whereas men's status and income are appreciating assets.

women<men

throwinout · 2015-09-12T04:31:23+00:00

Young women actually outearn young men and are more educated.

Uh, yeah because there are things like "women's only scholarships" and higher education admissions favor women. Women get in with lower scores.

phasetwenty · 2015-09-12T05:49:47+00:00

I disagree with your assertion that women's looks don't weigh that much more: they weigh considerably more. With that in mind, I'm convinced that each sex has a domain in which it can work on its SMV.

For women, that is primarily looks, but to a lesser extent there are areas such as personality that they can work at. For men, looks are still important, but personality, social status, wealth, game; all contribute substantially to SMV. This isn't to say that men must work harder: simply that they have more areas that affect SMV.

Women do a lot of work in a small number of areas to maintain their SMV. Men do less work in many areas to maintain theirs.

DaThrowaway808 · 2015-09-12T01:51:02+00:00

How are you gauging "working harder" cause I've had plenty of women tell me that working a 12 hour day was "so strenuous". I just laugh in their face.

[deleted] · 2015-09-12T17:41:35+00:00

Women work harder to maintain their SMV, and get small boosts, because deep down they know that's what matters. They know that the guys they want the most do not care that they are educated etc. Women are always competing with each other to see who can have the nicest shoes, the best make up, the best dress etc. etc. They're always seeking positive reinforcement.

But, you're wrong. You're confusing working hard in a preoccupied, obsessive way, with the hard work that actually changes ones SMV.

A fat girl,190 pounds, can put on a tight dress, and spend 2 hours getting ready, putting on make up, can have gotten her nails done, and aked her friends input, and she's just going to go from a 4.5 to a 5, and when you stick her next to an 8 that just rolled out of bed, it's not a competition. All that work and obsession for nothing. Fat girl can't do what it really takes: manage her diet and exercise.

Now, what does a woman really need to do to maximize her SMV? Her initial meeting of someone at a party SMV. She needs to manage her diet. That's really it. Everything past that is so minimal. A skinny 7 that spends 15 minutes picking out a dress at somewhere like Kohls and doing some basic make-up and hair is going to go to an 8 with minimal effort. A fat 4 that spends a week obsessing over a party is going to go to a 5.1, or, if she really cakes on the make up and sexes it up, a 5.5* with the * meaning that if you really look at her, you're going to get this uncanny feeling that you're looking at something inhuman.

But men? IF a man wants to be high SMV, not counting extreme examples of celebrities and athletes, the first thing he has to do is be over 5'10'', at the very least, and preferably between 6'2'' and 6'6''. A 6'6'' guy might be intimidating, but, if he challenges a 6'0'' guy for a girl, all other things pretty much the same, he's probably going to win.

However, US, only 20% of the male population is even 6'0'' and over, and only 2.7% is 6'3'' and over. I'm just speaking how I feel, but I really, really think that 6'2''/6'3'' is about when a guy is tall enough to really begin to grab women's attention just by existing.

I've never seen someone under 6'0'' pull the entire attention of the room, with the exception of him being the AMotG of a group of solidly beta/omega men.

For women height only becomes an issue if she's taller than the man, and even then, probably only around 5'9'', but only about 5% of women are 5'9'' or taller. It's almost a nonfactor. I remember there was this 6'5'' rugby guy at this country club I worked at, a member, that had this small, 5'0'' girlfriend. Men don't care.

But, let's be generous, and say that for a man to have high SMV in all situations, not just when he's better than what else is there, he has to be at least average height, meaning that you toss out 50% of the population. Sorry to guys below average height. I know you all have stories about some guy, or stories about how when you got a girl on her own you were able really impress her. Let's see how you do when you have to compete with an in shape 6'2'' guy for a girl. Yeah....

As a woman, they only need to be thin, have a low body fat percentage. Some manage with more because of naturally large breasts and hips, and a pretty face, but this is a small percentage, and only extends so far (maybe ~180 at the very, very most with really blessed genetics), but for men, they can't just be thin.

Men can't get by just by being thin, and yet that's what the majority of women that are attractive are. A man that is only thin is just a dweeb, a loser. Think about the cliche skinny nerd, or one of these MLG pro dudes. You change out the Y for an X chromosome and they go from a 4 to an 8. They dweeby gaming males aren't analogous to the dweeby gaming girls, they're sorority sluts in male bodies.

A typical female 8 is someone who is young, thin, maybe they did one sport growing up, or run at the gym twice a week.

A male that is an 8 is probably over 6'0'' tall and has spent many hours at the gym lifting to build muscle.

[deleted] · 2015-09-12T19:27:20+00:00

I don't believe men are more overweight than women. These studies are based on BMI alone and men have more muscle mass than women so they would weigh more on average with athletic men often wrongfully falling into the overweight or obese category. I would actually believe it to be the other way around with women being fatter than men. Men are naturally more physically active than women and their bodies require more calories than women's do. I think BMI is a terrible system for assessing men as a gender. Women also often get fatter when they are pregnant and don't work to lose it afterwards.

To answer your question, I think both genders have different challenges when it comes to maintaining their SMV. What about a man who is 5'6 and is not naturally charismatic? He's going to have a way more difficult time than a guy who is 6 foot tall and has a lot of natural charm and charisma.

[deleted] · 2015-09-12T21:27:45+00:00

Young women actually outearn young men and are more educated

Having a degree isn't the same as being educated.

throwinout · 2015-09-12T02:14:04+00:00

Women do those things for themselves not to attract men. If it is a normal part of a womens life to dress in a feminine way and use makeup then it really isn't her putting in anymore effort at all.

[deleted] · 2015-09-12T02:08:28+00:00

My SO says I do too much haha...he was with me for the weekend and watched me exfoliate my entire body with an exfoliating glove...lol. I told him it makes my skin smooth and tightens it. Lol.

betterdeadthanbeta · 2015-09-12T10:31:07+00:00

The fact is, most women spend significantly more time on their appearance (aka SMV) than men do.

Women usually say that they don't do this for men, but to "feel good". How do you reconcile this? Is it really 'work to improve SMV' if they are doing it for themselves, or to ward off the judgement of other women?

Really? How much harder does the average male work on his career?

Men work longer hours than women. About 3x more men put in overtime compared to women in 2000.

It also ignores the fact that according to studies looks are 16 times more important to women than status so men would have to be significantly more successful to compensate for this disparity which is clearly not the case.

One of those attraction factors is socially acceptable, the other isn't.

Men on the manosphere frequently complain about how Western women are unkempt and fat, conveniently ignoring the fact that a larger proportion of men are overweight and out of shape and that the average woman puts more time, effort, and money into grooming than the average man.

I don't think they ignore that, per se. I think they reason that as 'more men going full MGTOW' while even the unattractive chicks clamor are getting access to the top 10% of dicks.

Personally, I think you underestimate the amount of work required to be seen as attractive, as a dude. Women i know hardly ever acknowledge that they think a guy is hot. Only if he is a celeb or strikingly, top 10% handsome. Meanwhile, every one of them getting mass compliments on FB daily from thirsty dudes.

You can chalk this disparity up to objectification or whatever, but it exists. Guys have to work harder to get sexual validation. A chick just has to make a dating profile.

99_Problem · 2015-09-12T15:37:06+00:00

Women's appearance occupies a much larger fraction of their SMV versus men's. It makes sense that women would spend more time on their appearance, because it counts for more.

Except my anecdata disagrees with that, even. I pay more attention to my workouts and diet than all of the women that I actually know, personally or casually. And I post far less about it on social media, to boot.

Edit: While women may have to work harder to maintain their SMV, it's harder for men to actually build their SMV in the first place.

Drenzard · 2015-09-12T15:55:50+00:00

Except for the part where fat women are celebrated 1000 times more by men than fat men are by women and an enormous fetish exists for that ( BBW ) and plenty of thin men will fuck fat women. Except for the part where chubby women are considered by many men extremely attractive, even moreso than those "anorexic" women.

Except for the fact women just have not to eat like pigs, put on some makeup, use some beauty products, and wear revealing clothes to make men turn their heads, as long as they are within healthy BMI. For a male there's only one way to make women notice your appearance - lift like the fucking hulk for 5 years at the gym.

And don't even get me started on other SMV attributes like status or success. The demands women have for how successful, how socially popular, how ambitious, how talented, and how funny a man must be are much more difficult and draining to achieve than your whining about beauty.

Xemnas81 · 2015-09-12T15:57:47+00:00

Cuponoodles has time and again proven herself to be or to be seeking to play the part of a female supremacist intent merely on rustling TRP's jimmies because she thinks she's the first special snowflake to throw the fem-centric 'women are better than men these days, where have the real men gone' card out. Not realising that the TRP sub primarily exists because of the feminine imperative's normalisation of exploiting low value male's insecurities as is her raison d'être. This judgey bitch-mental attitude is basically the default hypergamous solipsistic hamstering of the average modern American middle class woman, literally thinking she is the best and looking down upon all those she deems beneath her.

I'm not going to debate with you about women investing more in looks, others here have just debunked the whole stupid 'we dress up for ourselves' matter though. The precise reason that women are out-performing men in academia and the professional realm is because of male disposability preventing any reverse affirmative action in favour of disenfranchised men, or supporting men's rights. Instead we have a generation of women thinking the men they frequent themselves with are lesser than them not just in the SMP but as a whole, that men are both privileged by their existence and obliged to support them-but not the other way around, because men who need women's support are after all pussies, man up guys. We also have a generation of disenfranchised men who feel various ranges of discontent from a bit bitter and frustrated to outright suicidal, and society looks down upon these men, including women who explicitly will have nothing to do with weak pussies even on a platonic level. Because women don't give these men the veto, nor do the men higher up, and so these men do not receive much social, financial or legal support and are either opting out, working inefficiently or frankly killing themselves.

As such I refuse to engage in this debate any further, you can all fall for her Trap Card if you want but I'm out.

thefisherman1961 · 2015-09-12T16:06:45+00:00

appearance (aka SMV)

Appearance is not the same as their SMV, though it is probably the most important factor that affects their SMV. Women's SMV also is massively influenced by how many different people they've engaged in sexual activity with.

[deleted] · 2015-09-12T17:00:44+00:00

Nah. Women don't work harder to maintain their SMVs.

Women work harder to maintain their physical appearances, which are the basis for their SMVs.

Men work harder to maintain their physical appearances, their jobs, their status, their work habits, their confidence and dominance, because those things are the bases for their SMVs.

It all shakes out more or less equal in the end.

NightwingTRP · 2015-09-13T00:44:57+00:00

CMV: Women must work harder to maintain their SMV

Hahaha... yeah.

Instructions for women of high SMV to maintain it: Don't eat lots of crap and do some exercise. So hard to accomplish. /sarcasm

donit · 2015-09-14T03:16:44+00:00

Women probably work harder on their appearance, and some of it (hair/clothes/makeup) is necessary. But I think it's silly when they try to work on their bodies. They have no idea what looks good, so at least half of their "adjustments" either don't accomplish anything, or make it look worse.

They always want to get rid of fat/feminine bulges, not realizing that the the model they're using for what looks good is a thin, unfeminine body. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so it's like trying to adjust your body to fit someone else's eyes. An easier way would be like selecting shoes to fit your feet: just find a man who's eyes already fit your body.

LUClEN · 2015-09-12T01:56:59+00:00

For now I agree, but this will change imo. Already we are seeing a shift in male priorities, where appearance is becoming much more important. Media outlets that cater to male audiences are now starting to mirror publications like Cosmo with their advice about how to look good and how to please your lady.

Since the sexual market place is based around sex the gender that has a greater demand for it will have greater expectations. This means suppliers, which in this case would be women, would need to compete more in this regard.

However, as attitudes towards female promiscuity change I think we will see men and women become more equal in this regard. Women will be allowed to express their sexuality more, which will drive up their demand for sex, and men will have to work harder to maintain their Sexual market value in order to compete.

Also you're wrong about men being more overweight: In 2008, 35% of adults aged 20+ were overweight (BMI ≥ 25 kg/m2) (34% men and 35% of women). The worldwide prevalence of obesity has nearly doubled between 1980 and 2008. In 2008, 10% of men and 14% of women in the world were obese (BMI ≥30 kg/m2), compared with 5% for men and 8% for women in 1980. An estimated 205 million men and 297 million women over the age of 20 were obese – a total of more than half a billion adults worldwide.

[deleted] · 2015-09-12T03:46:47+00:00

The fact is, most women spend significantly more time on their appearance (aka SMV) than men do.

I probably spend more time either at the gym or preparing for it than you do on makeup. My diet's probably also much more restricted than yours.

ExpendableOne · 2015-09-12T06:23:07+00:00

Let's be honest with ourselves and acknowledge that leagues do indeed exist

Spoken like a true narcissist.

The fact is, most women spend significantly more time on their appearance

lol, wtf? What do you base that on? You think because women do their hair and shave a bit more than men that they spend more time on their appearances? They really don't. Not just because men have to work a lot harder to gain muscle mass(which means spending a lot of time and effort getting bigger, whereas women basically just have to not be fat), have to spend a lot more money to dress well(because women care about that shit, where as most men don't care what women wear) and have to put a lot more effort into actually getting a good career(whether or not men have end up working harder for it, which they do, is kind of irrelevant, what is relevant is that this is what is expected of men but not women).

Even ignoring all this, however, men still have to work considerably harder to maintain their "SMV" because a lot of their "SMV" also relies on men's ability to approach and impress women. "Game" is something that is exclusively expected of men, and that women really aren't expected to develop the way men are. All society expects of them is to be there, with men expected to compete for their attention.

Not only do women have very few actually physical expectations(basically, don't be fat), fewer professional expectations and fewer social expectations, but they also have fewer sexual expectations(women aren't virgin shamed the way men are, and most women expect men to be especially experienced with women) and fewer ethical expectations as well(even women who are complete sociopaths are often given a free pass because they are women).

You would have to be completely delusional to honestly try to make the argument that women have to work at it harder than men, when they basically just have to be there to be valued. Women are definitely privileged by the many sexist double-standards and gender roles that are prevalent within our culture.

dakru · 2015-09-12T02:04:46+00:00

I don't know. The vast majority of the women I see/meet are all skinny and pretty. Same goes for men. They are all tall, handsome and fit. Not muscular, tho. Well, with the exception of my male model friends.

I've never seen an overweight woman or man in my life. I don't think I've ever seen a woman or a man who wasn't attractive.

Title	CMV: Women must work harder to maintain their SMV
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	7
Comments	72
Date	September 12, 2015 1:34 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3km8j3/cmv_women_must_work_harder_to_maintain_their_smv/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-women-must-work-harder-to-maintain-their-smv.279689 https://theredarchive.com/post/279689

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