Are members of TRP also people with a 'victim mentality' they seemingly despise?

ManRAh · 2015-09-04T18:48:41+00:00

No.

Professional Victims (particularly Progressives) cry about their lives and then demand other people change. "You have to accept me because I'm fat." "Women don't make as much money, pay me more." "Fighting for a raise is hard, get rid of meritocracy." Etc.

TRP accepts people in a state of perceived victimhood, and then tells them they (the individual) have to change, because the world won't. When a Beta finds TRP they are taught that the world works a specific way, and it is the Beta who is incongruous to reality, not the other way around.

In both cases you have people claiming a grievance, but how each side deals with that grievance is totally different.

supermanspider · 2015-09-05T03:30:13+00:00

I honestly see more "good" TRP'ers in the Purple Pill than I do in the actual sub, I don't know why this is. Sincerely every time I see a post here that essentially asks, "Why is TRP that way," there's always a reply of, "It's not all like that,". Every time I see this I go, "Yeah, that's true, at its heart, Reddit is just a sort of 'self-help' blog,"

Then I look at the number one trending post of today:

"Single mothers are delinquent subhuman scum who you should avoid at all costs."

So what the fuck gives?

DaThrowaway808 · 2015-09-04T18:37:51+00:00

Of course, men in TRP can be just as guilty, but one of the core parts of TRP is taking ownership. So if they understand what TRP is trying to say, then they should be moving away from that mindset.

jdgalt · 2015-09-04T20:12:58+00:00

The usual response to this is "No! TRP encourages personal responsibility." But, from what I've seen, TRP encourages personal responsibility in very obvious ways- being accountable for your own fitness, career, charisma- but shifts the blame in nearly every other way. TRP preaches that the world/women/literally everything is actively against men (reaction to these offenses is often pointed to as a rationalization of RPers behaving in a self serving manner). How is that NOT a victim mentality??

MrCheddarCheese · 2015-09-04T20:23:09+00:00

Are you kidding? The entire redpill "philosophy" is based on victim mentality. Your assessment is spot on and it's why no one takes them seriously.

They wallow in delusions of persecution (the West is feminizing men!! Report to battle stations!) But its really just a desperate attempt to feel "special." I mean, if you're being persecuted, you must be important, right? You're not being ignored and dismissed anymore (which is why these dudes go to TRP--women ignore and dismiss them.)

wazzup987 · 2015-09-04T21:55:28+00:00

I think it plays a role, but i also think society has only really worked to evolve one half of the gender roles and this the result when half the people in a society can choose gender roles like buffet (leaving out all responsibility that came with those old gender roles) and the other half can't even begin to start to break free because the half that broke free still expect the half that to maintain their gender roles.

caesarfecit · 2015-09-05T10:02:12+00:00

This is one of the fault lines of RedPill, where there isn't a universal answer. It basically boils down to:

How much does that RedPiller blame women or a woman for his romantic problems, either specifically or generally?
How willing is that RedPiller to trust women in spite of the risks? Is he a firm believer in AWALT, or does he just know there are women with character and ones without? Does he realize that despite most straight women being susceptible to a common set of character flaws, that not all women have them just as bad?

Personally I have big problems with AWALT because it's a paranoid and prejudicial belief. To the extent it has merit, it's for newbies who need it drilled into their head that women are not saints and they can be manipulative, greedy, and dishonest - and the key is to recognize, and accept this danger.

The current state of the dating scene is because men abdicated any responsibility over it/relationships in general, and let the feminists run amok and fuck things up for both genders. AWALT doesn't fix this. If anything it makes it worse by implying that women can't be trusted, and men should only get involved with women on their terms. It's an abdication of the responsibility men have to themselves to judge a woman on her character - because it's a lot easier to stay a man child and hide behind walls of cynicism and distrust than it is to be a good judge of character.

What I've found is dishonest and needy people attract dishonest and needy people. RedPill is at its best when it shows men how to be a man of character, so they can meet and keep around women of character. It's at its worst when it's mocking obviously damaged cases, and holding them up as proof that the female gender is morally and ethically weak.

Xemnas81 · 2015-09-06T04:05:14+00:00

By reciting AWALT member of TRP try to project this VM onto women, so it's their 'fault' they didn't get laid.

this is a long post because I sense that you are either oblivious to, or due to your conditioning hostile towards, the side bar and core literature, which would explain your faulty conclusions (accounting for the local fallacy of confirmation bias as I did below). People have abridged it better, so I'll try and explain in more detail.

So to start off:

No, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of AWALT that comes from viewing the anger phase and conflating all of TRP with anger phasers. I've already explained what AWALT=treat all guns as loaded actually means in other comments; is this a persecution complex? If you were driving, would you ever do it with one hand on the wheel? Would you consider driving with 2 hands 'just to be on the safe side' a persecution complex? In the same way, understanding and respecting the constant presence of power dynamics such as hypergamy that occur within the SMP, is crucial to one's security as man.

Now as to the anger phasers; this is not the eventual aim of a redpiller. One is not supposed to wallow indefinitely but internalise the message from the comprehensive literature, take temporary leave from the SMP to apply a self-improvement program i.e. 'Monk Mode' and then return Game-aware, stripped of Beta/Nice Guy ego-investments such as the VM/just world fallacy.

On top of this, we have (that is, TRP has, my representing them as purple pill today) an entire, preliminary textbook devoted to stripping away the victim mentality. It's called No More Mr Nice Guy. You should read it, it's good. It starts compassionate, about how a guy ended up so fucked up and insecure he became a Nice Guy™ and ends with no-nonsense bullshit on how to become an Alpha Male.

However, one needs to understand that stripping themselves of former ego investments is a lengthy, often painful process and one does not just flip a switch from one conception of reality to another. You expect too much rationalism to emotional beings, especially the hypersensitive NG/Beta, even if the aim is to make men who swallow the pill more rational. So, imagine this: a man is in fact raised (as so many men were raised during the apex of 3rd wave feminism in the 90s) to be New Age Sensitive Guys, nice, respectful and totally emasculated. The ideology which conceived of this being 'the new sexy' is feminism, a movement which until the recent sex-positivity movement has historically feared, loathed certain expressions of male sexuality and considered it an oppressive tool to reinforce a chauvinistic, patriarchal society. Given this, it would seem that it would be in women's interest to adopt this new model, would it not? However, women eventually began to be seemingly indifferent if not repulsed by the absence of masculinity, sometimes extending to an absence of sexuality, drive and independence…yet these men were told to constantly Be Nice, Be Respectful, Be A Gentleman…are they not permitted some time to vent their frustrations at having been 'lied to'?

This goes deeper than just 'being nice to get into their pants'; these men have generally been emotionally neglected or abandoned and have some deep-seated needs for therapy. Until they do so they will act in indirect ways to have their needs met; passive aggression, covert contracts (think 'friend zone' or 'shoulder to cry on/emotional tampon'), manipulation etc. All of which needy. Is this women's fault as a collective, that they have developed such low esteem and become emotionally wounded? No. Is this late 2nd to 3rd wave feminism's brain-child, and should that movement accept responsibility for the mess it has made? Well, actually, yes. Is this is the fault of some individual mothers and parent figures, most of whom adopted the feminist values, but also his responsibility as an adult to correct? Yes.

Furthermore, only the most deluded believe that looks don't count-although I would posit that objectification may in fact be reversed, but that's yet another thread which requires analysis into whether patriarchy is a fallacy. However, it is a very ostensible reality of the feminine imperative that the laws should fall harsher upon a man who is overtly assertive with his sexuality than one who remains meek, mild and totally asexual. One only needs to lurk r/MensRights (of which I'm a frequent poster) to understand this. There are consequences to being too masculine in the era of 3rd wave feminism, and (it was told) that beta provider traits such as sensitivity and empathy would be not necessarily rewarded but at least appreciated and respected by women. These are also socially reinforced by disqualification of 'toxic masculinity', that is, the absence of being beaten with a stick for being overtly sexual eventually becomes internalised as being fed a carrot for being nice and respectful.

Yet the contemporary woman is mostly indifferent to this in terms of erotic attraction; one cannot negotiate desire, this is a integral component to understanding the fallacy of expecting relational equity. That's not to say that she dislikes the attribute, although in excess she does-weakness, neediness, self-pity/whining, your aforementioned VM etc.-but she is not sexually responsive to it. What does this all mean? Romantic frustration for the overly sensitive, empathetic yet needy guy. You say you're 21 years old; I suppose you, like myself, are too young to know what a dead bedroom scenario is like. To experience this blind, without understanding of the laws of power, and know that your only escape clause to seek alternative intimacy is financial ruin (of which I can attest my father experienced) and social rejection for being an asshole? This is very, very psychologically restrictive stuff, at least as far as 1st world problems would go. It is humiliating, depressing, and can cause one to question their value. No-one's pretending that being a Beta is worse than being in a war zone, but as far as problems in Western suburbia go, it's harrowing.

But of course in seeking pity I'm showing a VM. Explanations need to be made.

I shan't even move on the 'lifting' mentality and why that is obviously part of the VM, or the reason people even swallow the pill in first place.

Again, please explain how this is associated with a VM mentality? (Forgive these nauseatingly long sentences) If one understands the 'bio-truths' and accepts that women at ovulation phase actively seek out r-selected males or 'alphas' with high testosterone for mating, and only K-males or 'betas' with lower testosterone for security and provisioning outside of this peak ovulation phase-then it follows that a man who wishes to attract women wanting r-males with high T, should boost his T, no? So then, surely it follows to suggest that it's better to engage in activities which boost testosterone and lower body fat%, the most efficient of which being a healthy diet and an exercise regime involving both HIIT and strength training incorporating compound moves? How on earth does this betray self-victimisation? If anything, this is empowerment.

However, no-one's forcing you to lift. The point is to work out. Some of the younger redpillers are seriously low market value, may even be NEETs, have a necessity to improve themselves, and do not have things like rudimentary hobbies come of ease to them. The same of the older ones who are severely depressed. Lifting's an easy way to get them to stop spending their days just moping and jacking off to porn. Of course this is a sign of deeper psychological issues than TRP should be responsible for, but that's another thread. Lifting is the first choice because of

a) the aforementioned testosterone boost, which can re-empower a man and have him behave closer to the r-male or confident 'alpha' that women mostly desire

b) contemporary media representations associate high status, successful men with interests in bodybuilding and/or their physiques

c) strong connotations with traditional masculinity that young men can readily associate with

I repeat, nobody says you have to lift. Go row or swim if it troubles you so much, RP recommends Otter Mode, the lean 12% body fat look for a reason. I find it rather odd that you would try and associate a simple self-improvement goal (fitness/physique) as a sign of victim mentality?

To that enddo you refer to the VM re: 'Chad Thundercock' the archetypal hyperbolic pussy-slaying Alpha? I'm sure you know a guy like this; maybe you are one himself. I'll concede that if you're saying that guys complaining about Chad is indicative of VM, then yes you'd probably be right. Please clarify.

or the reason people even swallow the pill in first place

I've touched upon some of the reasons, here are a few

Man with feminised social conditioning AKA Beta/Nice Guy/Average Frustrated Chump Game, constantly romantically rejected or ignored, without understanding of how his behaviour ties into this-and being given advice which often reinforces the behaviour that is driving him to fail. Inb4 develops misogynistic outlook indicative of VM, I am not commenting on how justified their/my initial reaction to this was, I am simply stating the rationale
Man who has been burned (dumped/cheated on/played) for engaging in said behaviours, or failures to understand hypergamy, Game etc.
Man who has faced legal and financial ramifications for questioning the feminine imperative, or for dealing with hypergamy (divorce rape, false rape accusations, loss of child custody, false accusation of abuse under the Duluth Model, etc.) This is real shit-if you do more lurking, you will see that there are just as many complaints of incidents such as this even within the context of LTRs/marriages, as there is your straw man of nice guys complaining about the friend zone etc.

wtknight · 2015-09-04T22:27:41+00:00

/r/TheRedPill has a lot of "anger phase" posters with victim mentalities, so many that it makes you wonder if most of /r/TheRedPill will ever graduate from anger phase. Somebody on /r/TheBluePill recently pointed out that they've seen a lot more misogynist rants lately on /r/TheRedPill and fewer self-improvement posts, which I am inclined to agree with.

However, you don't see it as much among the Red Pillers here on PPD, although there are a couple TRP posters who are still pretty good at playing the victim. On the whole, though, most of the posters seem like the intellectuals of /r/TheRedPill who come here to seriously debate their ideas rather than to whine and play the victim card.

[deleted] · 2015-09-04T19:20:59+00:00

They sometimes remind me of Tumblr feminists , especially when they complain about post wall women in movies .

LadyVetinari · 2015-09-05T04:36:06+00:00

It would be entirely disingenuous to try to claim the RP is not solely based on a victim mentality. They couch their "worldview" in the facade of "self improvement," but taking into account their context, even that rings hollow.

The whole premise is based on the fact they are receiving the short end of the societal stick, being males, and have to "overcome" the burdensome standards put upon them - to cater to and placate "females" who only want to ride the cock carousel and get a cuck to look after their progeny.

How can anyone anyone even argue that they don't consider themselves victims? Slighted by the big bad feminist trap. What other explanation is there for the "anger phase" all the little 12-year-olds go through?

It's a classic victim complex. Similiar to the "tumblr" personas they typically despise. Things in their life don't work out according to their preferences, so it must be society or pseudo-biology working against them. The whole thing reeks of "poor us, listen to my story it's so tragic"

[deleted] · 2015-09-05T14:04:16+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Xemnas81 · 2015-09-06T05:12:31+00:00

2nd post for you OP because your primary concern here seems to be to shame men for discussing red pill reality, naturally a threat to fem-centrism within the SMP.

Moreover you discuss AWALT but you don't seem to understand or respect the mechanics of hypergamy, or the feminine imperative. Forgive me if you've lurked more than this, but have you explored outside the main sub? Again, Rollo goes into depth with this, I don't have time to address it in full as it's a 40-odd page read each. But I'll make it as short as I can

If women are both the gatekeepers of sex and thus reproduction, and bearing the egg which brings the child, the future of homo sapiens-then women are integral to survival. Thus, they will be protected-oppressed? Perhaps. And women have suffered because of this. But ultimately, they were protected from death. (Along the way, this was warped and so kings had the power to execute women, of course)
Women are protected more than men. Men must seek out resources while guarding women and children with their lives. Men are disposable. This is the root of patriarchy.
The female brain seeks out security on the pre-rational level; if you're a biologist/geneticist/psychologist etc. with a better understanding of Evolutionary Psychology, speak out now, I'll be very glad to hear someone finally challenge this. Assuming you're not, gender dimorphism shows some radical alterations between the male and female brain; one of these being the female hypergamous instinct, in the way that the male has a polygynous instinct. Can humanity repress this in the name of civilisation, compassion to those in their social circles they care for such as their SOs? Yes. But is it always present, sleeping like a panther? Yes.
Women erotically desire the healthiest, most fit, highest testosterone man; they seek out the man with optimal potential to keep her and her child secure as a long-term mate thereafter, and when off ovulation. In contemporary times, the latter male is primarily indicated through wealth, social proof and in the absence of this, environment/behavioural cues of high status-or Game. Game is essentially psychological manipulation to appear higher status than one is. RP Game is to move this from just the initial courtship ritual into a long-term strategy for maintaining erotic desire/attraction, whether for non-exclusive dating of multiple women (plate spinning) or LTRs/marriage .
Given that men are disposable but women are not, society structures itself in order to accommodate women and children's needs first. Thus, the state renders men more expendable then women and children. We operate under feminised conditioning. In modern times, this has been exacerbated by feminist theory: man=oppressor, women=victim. This is worsened by the misunderstanding that women were, to an extent, at once oppressed and privileged by protection from the likes of conscription and other forms of male disposability, under patriarchy. In modern times…perhaps you're above this bias, but with feminised conditioning, you as a male are by default programmed since your childhood to be more sympathetic to women's suffering than men's; 'internalised misogyny', feminism now calls this, note blaming men indirectly for the feminine imperative. Your sympathies hold an out-group bias, while women by and large hold sympathy towards the in-group-other women-against the outgroup-you.
If one is to understand RP theory to the heart, then the only thing which previously prevented a woman pursuing the dualistic mating strategy Alpha Fucks/Beta Bucks and hypergamy was enforced monogamy (marriage) through practices such as religion, and of course the patriarchy. Otherwise, she is almost certain (with some exceptions) to trade up from lower value men to higher value men without discrimination.
Yet when women are liberated from the oppression of being the protected class, and start to become financially independent, the pre-rational imperative of hypergamy challenges her moralistic, Enlightened conditioning towards humanism and egalitarianism, and often still has her seek out men who can provide healthy genes and security in absence of sufficient incentive to do otherwise. This is more transparent by the fact that she can now follow AF/BB; Hook-up culture is a testament to this.
When we put this in practice, it basically means that the 'price of pussy' has been grossly inflated, while the 'quality' of men has reduced due to their being 'plugged in' to feminised conditioning which is essentially sexually unattractive. It may even cause them to begin to flounder in other areas of life, as with their sexuality repressed they have less drive to do. Thus they become 'weak man children' and we hear, Where Have All the Good Men Gone? Women continue to pursue the highest value man, as opposed to a man in her 'league', and men's standards continue to fall. Women are taught to emancipate themselves from romanticism about relationships, while men continue to be taught that providing for a family=ultimate happiness. Overall, women grow in power while men lose it. But here's the catch: everyone pretends men still have all the power, and women can fall back on their own VM (patriarchal oppression) should shit hit the fan.

**So in practice where under Patriarchy we had

SMV 7 Man dates/marries SMV 7 Woman, live happily ever after

now we have

SMV 5 woman sleeps throughout 20s with SMV 9 men, can't get them to commit since out of her league; settles for SMV 6 man shers slightly attracted to but eventually cheats on him/divorces him for SMV man**

Empirically, can you see how this is an imbalanced equation? When applied to a real world scenario, an emotional whirlwind too.

So my question to you now is, OP: you are a guy, and not only have you been fucked over by 'looks', which I suppose is a VM to be bothered about since this is socially acceptable to readily admit-but also by forces such as hypergamy, AF/BB and the feminine imperative. Nowhere else has described this process to you, in fact it's pretty damn taboo and you will be despises for questioning them. Yet you observe them, time and time again. You may even have an emotional investment in them, such as having watched your father stumble into a severe depression because of a nasty divorce-basically down to hypergamy and his being completely 'plugged in' to Beta/NG Game.

Are you justified to vent your frustrations about having only been given half of a truth throughout your formative years?

Remember, eventually you are expected to rise and make use of your Game-aware knowledge to become a better man. TRP does not really expect women to change their basic hypergamous nature any time soon, that's the purpose of AWALT. Rather it is our responsibility to be better men to meet the needs of hypergamy, and to accept the nature of male disposability.

I have personal experience (or perceived paranoia of the potential of this experience, at least) of failure to live up to this, in the form of competition to my LDR with a guy ironically nicknamed with your username…but I was fortunate that she was a unicorn case, and I mostly failed with her through losing my Game, general wellbeing and other factors beyond our control. (I was yet to swallow the pill until we began No Contact, but was exposed online to hypergamy and branch-swinging in the 6 months of irrational jealousy around said guy and this alpha-associated nickname) Outside of that relationship though, everywhere have TRP principles been confirmed, even within my own family…even my mom was a gun to treat as loaded when push came to shove. And I'm conscious of generalisations, confirmation biases and other cognitive biases, availability heuristics, anchoring effects and what have you warping my perceptions, thank you.

Also, I'm sure you've heard of MGTOW, the men who saw this and thought, what's the point, I don't want to be anybody's bitch any longer, I'm doing my own thing from now on. A good question would be: are these men weak, to abandon their posts as working ants for the imperative, knowing that if they were to work they will never be rewarded for it with the love that the media saturates into their mind, and perhaps be demonised for publicly bringing it up?

I am not trying to convince you whether the TRP sub is full of a victim mentality. I am trying to convince you whether the anger phase of adjustment and transition is legitimate to respect.

edit: I'll concede that there is a certain type of woman who RP theory describes to a tee. She's typically a very attractive, low intelligence, insecure narcissist (that's a thing), possibly with borderline personality disorder, who basically relies upon her looks and youth to get through life, and has multiple pussy passes because of this. In other words, a blonde bimbo in high school. RP dynamics and the need for Game become more and more applicable the more physically attractive and desired by men a woman is-and vice versa. On top of this, the extremely intelligent, attractive, successful Dark Triad femme fatale-but it's unlikely someone unimportant such as ourselves will ever dance within the circles they frequent, and if we did you should run. But one can find nit-bits of hypergamy, solipsism, manipulation, AF/BB etc. in people you suspected a lot less-maybe not everyone, but enough to question the 'hot girl goggles' fallacy that often comes up in here.

The purpose of AWALT then, as I mentioned in my 1st quote, is that all women are women, and may act in terms of their dualistic mating strategy or hypergamic interests given the necessary conditions. That doesn't mean hate them or blame them, and for God's sake don't take it literally it's supposed to be a general heuristic, but don't be surprised when letting yourself go or breaking frame ends messy. Treat all guns as loaded.

Swanksterino · 2015-09-04T22:26:20+00:00

A person with VM pretends there is nothing they can do about or prevent a particular situation. TRP is filled with things you could have done to prevent, or do about particular situations. I think we may be misunderstanding what VM means.

[deleted] · 2015-09-04T21:19:22+00:00

I think there's a difference between the victim mentality and sour grapes, which usually doesn't involve others.

In contrast victim mentality invariably involves a play for sympathy from others, which is usually successful.

The same people who consider it a cardinal sin to "blame the victim" are also purveyors of the victim mentality. The shaming of people who "blame the victim" is an integral component of the victim mentality. I don't see that TRP embraces that particular doctrine.

Sour grapes, yes. A lot of posts like that, but victim mentality, no. Not as far as I can see.

[deleted] · 2015-09-05T12:22:25+00:00

Absolutely. Read the top comment of most posts. They almost always echoe the same sentiment: women are shallow and never give those poor suffering beta males their time of day and when they grow old they use betas for their money. These evil women force them to undertake the hard path of becoming alpha.

Those poor poor nerdy betas.

Nazrath2112 · 2015-09-05T12:36:09+00:00

I know mods do their jobs well, but I would like to stress, a nice clean discussion should take place and not a shitstorm of abuse/looking through profiles etc...

Why shouldnt this be a shitstorm? Whos the victim now?

[deleted] · 2015-09-07T13:29:10+00:00

Objectively speaking, men are victimized fare more in society. If anyone would like to see the stats, I can produce.

On top of that, we do not tolerate nor recommend anyone wallow in self-pity.

We all do not lobby and cry to the legislators to create laws to make other gender second class citizens.

[deleted] · 2015-09-05T03:58:34+00:00

Hey OP I'd like to address a few things and I absolutely believe that the female response to this post will be negative for the following reason. Like a lot of men, women have an inflated sense of ego and actually believe, or rather have always been told and treated as if they truly ARE a special snowflake. This is bullshit. When you come to this realization, you can come to terms with AWALT.

Now first to address this part of your post I'm going to go ahead and disregard it because it's coming across from an ethical moral standpoint and I believe that is bullshit in an argument about the truth. You stated: misogynistic (just in the sense of tarring all with one brush sort of thing - we'll just ignore this, so what if it's "misogynistic" (even though I understand it's more cautionary than factual)) to an extent this holds true but it's factual on a lot of levels too.. with a slight tinge of disrespect.. I will just disregard this part.

You can't compare awalt to racism. Racism has no scientific or biological proof whatsoever and is based solely on assumptions. Environment you are raised in plays a factor in who you are, yes, but you can take a black kid from the ghetto and raise him in Paris and he'd be different. AWALT has scientific backing and is only biology. AWALT comes from studying female behaviour and realising the fact that yes ALL females are biological creatures who have biological tendencies and how to exploit/not get exploited by these tendencies. The only variance is to what degrees these tendencies are followed and even after that, there's not going to be a different degree for every single woman in this world.

As soon as the female can put aside her ego and shut the fuck up about her special bullshit and realize she's just another biological creature, just like a man is it makes a lot more sense. We're all replacable, disposable, there's always going to be some other male or female who can do the exact same thing. Does this sound misogynistic? Yes. Does it sound disrespectful? Yes. Does it matter? No. Superiority? No, AMALT applies as well. TL;DR - you're not a special little snowflake regardless of what society has been telling you you're whole life. Don't give me an emotional nonobjective response.

Title	Are members of TRP also people with a 'victim mentality' they seemingly despise?
Author	supermanspider
Upvotes	12
Comments	158
Date	September 4, 2015 6:31 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3jng2a/are_members_of_trp_also_people_with_a_victim/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/are-members-of-trp-also-people-with-a-victim.279798 https://theredarchive.com/post/279798

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