what modern men and women desire in a mate?

mitreddit · 2014-10-03T22:17:08+00:00

mate preferences are changing as we change... http://healthland.time.com/2012/09/07/when-men-stop-seeking-beauty-and-women-care-less-about-wealth/...

[–]Archwinger[🍰] 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]We_Are_LegionAutumn Red6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd like to believe otherwise but this is the only answer that seems right. No matter whether the data supports RP or not. People need to learn that surveys are often poor predictors of most things. They are a canvas for people's self-imagined virtuousness to express itself without them actually having to do anything good. People have a tendency to avoid cognitive dissonance about their self-image. Surveys let them affirm what makes them feel nice and more in line with what society tells them is right. The data may just as well be telling us that people in Turkey are more honest and less biased by societal pressures to lie than people in Finland. After all, some measure of social pressure has undoubtedly been needed to achieve gender equality.

And this isn't just opinion. It is beyond conclusive people lie on surveys at a statistically significant rate to make themselves feel good. An example I actually bothered to read up on was sex surveys. Which are absurdly wrong. The hard data points in there are universally skewed towards answers which each sex is expected to be by society. So if people manipulate themselves out of believing in hard data points about themselves, what about soft data?

How many men can you even get to admit to themselves they're not infinitely strong and sometimes need therapy? The real answers don't change... but social expectations make the given answers shift dramatically relative to other groups.

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[–]myfatbrokethewallNon-Red Pill8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

But how many women want to work full time?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/20/national/20women.html?pagewanted=all

Many women at the nation's most elite colleges say they have already decided that they will put aside their careers in favor of raising children. Though some of these students are not planning to have children and some hope to have a family and work full time, many others, like Ms. Liu, say they will happily play a traditional female role, with motherhood their main commitment.

Also

A 2005 study of comparable Yale alumni classes found that the pattern had not changed. Among the alumni who had reached their early 40's, just over half said work was their primary activity, compared with 90 percent of the men. Among the women who had reached their late 40's, some said they had returned to work, but the percentage of women working was still far behind the percentage of men.

And these are women who could have the more interesting jobs.

However for those women that want to work full time and can earn good money by themselves, it makes sense that they wouldn't place as much emphasis on a provider than a woman who actually needs an provider. Still, I think many of the qualities that make a man more likely to be a good provider might also make him more attractive even to a woman who didn't need a provider.

An example of such a quality is right in the link:

Further, it found that the top few most desired traits were shared by both men and women: most people first look for intelligence, kindness and sense of humor, even before men mention beauty or women mention wealth and status.

But intelligence would make it easier for a man to secure a well paying job, and otherwise provide for his family (his intelligence would mean being better equipped to handle things like buying a house, investing, buying a car and so on).

Or in the case of a working class man, how about physical fitness/strength? Physical fitness/strength is clearly attractive, and I suspect would be required for a man to be able to do things like work in construction or in an oil field.

How about general mental strength? Would make a man better equipped to be a provider, and I would wager would also be attractive on its own.

[–]McCaberBlue9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]myfatbrokethewallNon-Red Pill8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I just did a google search and came across this:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100637647#.

About 70 percent of married moms who attended top-tier universities such as Princeton and Harvard were employed in 2010, according the analysis.

That compares to about 80 percent of married moms who attended the nation's least competitive universities, said Joni Hersch, the law and economics professor at Vanderbilt University who prepared the data.

The married moms from the nation's best universities also tended to take more time out of the workforce than those who attended the least competitive universities, and to work fewer hours if they did work at all, she said. About 45 percent of the married moms from the best universities were working full-time, compared with about 57 percent of the married moms from the least selective universities.

Hersch's analysis looked at married women between ages 21 and 54 who also had children under age 18, and is based on the National Survey of College Graduates, which provides government data on around 77,000 college graduates.

Then

She thinks it's possible that the married moms who attended the most prestigious universities are more likely to work part-time, or not at all, in part because they can afford to do so.

That's because other research has shown that graduates from top schools are more likely to come from wealthy families and to marry men who also attend prestigious universities and come from similarly wealthy families. That could give them more financial flexibility to opt out.

Then

The tendency for these highly educated moms to work part-time or not at all even extended to many who had also earned advanced business degrees. But the weak economy seems to have played a role in sending some of these moms back into the workforce.

Hersch found that just about 35 percent of the married moms with MBAs who went to the best universities were working full-time in 2003, but that had increased to 54 percent by 2010.

By contrast, about 66 percent of the moms with MBAs who attended the least selective universities were working full-time in 2003, but that fell to about 48 percent in 2010.

I mean a decent number of married mothers who probably don't have to work full time still do ("About 45 percent of the married moms from the best universities were working full-time"). But these are also the women who likely have the nicer jobs. What do you think would happen if women who were working the worse jobs had the option not to?

Maybe part time work lets them have the best of both worlds, and maybe sufficiently high status women can have interesting part time work. I don't know to what extent it's possible to have a career while working part time. I guess having your own business would be one way to do it. Maybe women who have their own practice in medicine or law or I guess any other profession where you can decide how many clients you'll see can set their own hours. If you wanted to be a tenured professor though, you'd be out of luck (unless you were a genius who could get the needed work done quickly). I doubt you could get high up in the corporate world while working part time either.

[–]SovietRaptorFormer-Red Pill Man1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]myfatbrokethewallNon-Red Pill2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't know offhand, but I think it would be hard to compare a country with feminism to one without it simply because in a country without feminism a woman with a well-earning husband who wanted to, but didn't have to work might not have opportunities available to her due to lack of feminism, or the work culture might be unfriendly to women.

India is a poor country, but: http://qz.com/176658/india-has-the-lowest-workforce-participation-rate-of-women-among-the-brics/

Few states—including Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia—do worse than India when it comes to women’s participation in the workforce. Others such as Somalia, Bahrain and Malaysia do much better. Among the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) which are comparable emerging economies, India has the lowest female participation rate, with only 29% of women over the age of 15 working. As the chart below shows, even among the MINT countries—Mexico, Nigeria, Indonesia and Turkey—only Turkey has the same participation rate as India.

Then

According to Verick, the two main factors keeping women at home are social customs and very low education levels among women.

Breaking such customs is hard. Preet Rustagi, joint director of Institute for Human Development in Delhi, said: “To a certain extent, men control women’s lives. And women have internalised this as the norm. In such situations, the little work they do is the result of compulsion, such as when the household income is not enough, rather than choice.”

Then

“In India, there is a U-shaped relationship between education and participation of women in the workforce,” Verick said. “Illiterates participate more out of necessity. Women with a middle-level education (below graduate) have different aspirations and can afford to remain out of the workforce. Only better educated women have been ‘pulled’ into the labour force in response to better paid opportunities.”

Japan for example is an unfriendly country for mothers who would want to work: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21880124

According to Japanese government statistics by far the biggest reason why Japanese women quit their jobs after childbirth is that Japanese "working hours make child care unfeasible".

Then

As Nobuko's example shows Japan's working culture can be brutal. It's one of the reasons why 70% of Japanese women still give up work as soon as they have their first child.

I wonder if that's part of the reason why their birth rates are as low as they are.

On the other hand, in some European countries mothers are more likely to work than non-mothers:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/10/30/labor-women-iceland-biz-cx_wp_1030moms.html

European countries have had the greatest success integrating women with children into the workforce. In 2006, female employment rates rose above 80% in Iceland and were over 70% in Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland. In fact, it has been so successful that in several European countries, women with children are more likely to be employed than women without children. Why do working moms matter so much? Fewer women will join or seriously commit to the workforce if they know having a child will end their careers.

“Working mothers have become the biggest issue in most countries,” said Shelley Correll, an associate professor of sociology at Stanford University. “European countries have taken aggressive steps to increase the number of mothers participating in the workforce, because they feel it is in their interests to keep them fully engaged in the labor force.”

These policies have proved extremely effective in many countries. In Iceland, mothers are more likely to work than women without children. Nearly 90% of all mothers in Iceland are employed, which makes it the country with the largest share of moonlighting mothers.

Not sure how this breaks down into full-time vs. part-time.

Saudi Arabia is a really un-feminist country, and there you have stats like these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#Employment

According to the International Labor Organization, Saudi women constitute 18.6% of the native workforce.[11] The rate of participation has grown from 15.3% in 1990 to 18.6% in 2011.[11] Other statistical reports quoted by the Al-Riyadh daily newspaper state 14.6% of workers in the public and private sectors of the Kingdom are women. When foreign expatriate workers are included in the total, the percentage of working Saudi women drops further to 6.1%.[69] This compares with over 40% in Muslim nations such as United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, and Malaysia.[70] Some critics complain that this constitutes an underutilization of women's skills, since females make up 70% of the students in Saudi institutes of higher education.[71] Even some jobs taken by women in almost every other country were reserved for men in Saudi Arabia. The Saudi delegation to the United Nations International Women's Year conference in Mexico City in 1975 and the Decade for women conference in Nairobi in 1985, was made up entirely of men.[72]

Employment for women has a number of restrictions under Saudi law and culture. According to the Saudi Labor Minister Dr. Ghazi Al-Qusaibi (speaking in 2006):

"the [Labor] Ministry is not acting to [promote] women's employment since the best place for a woman to serve is in her own home. ... therefore no woman will be employed without the explicit consent of her guardian. We will also make sure that the [woman's] job will not interfere with her work at home with her family, or with her eternal duty of raising her children...[71]

Anyway, my opinion is that most people, male or female, don't work for fun. For the small % of people who do work because their job is their passion, I would expect it would be more common for women to do this in feminist countries because of better laws and a culture that encourages women to pursue their dreams. A woman who had a dream to be a doctor or a scientist in the US could go for it, in Saudi Arabia I expect not so much (and for that matter she might never have that dream at all because of how she would be brought up).

[–]SovietRaptorFormer-Red Pill Man-1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]fiat_lux_Red Pillar4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This is definitely one of those nature v nurture cases. The research is showing that our culture definitely does play a big deal

More specifically, economics plays a big role. The surveys mentioned in the article refer to multiple different countries/culture. The independent variable here is "financial equality" between the genders.

This is important because we wouldn't want people giving too much credit to pop culture.

No wonder TRPers don't like women making a lot of money, it makes it harder for you to just flash your wealth and be viewed as sexy. You'd have to also develop other positive qualities in your life if your partner is the same as you financially.

There is another angle from this. I've talked to various women from BRIC countries who've come into wealth. I actually got into an argument with one of them because she was complaining about how hard women had it in her city, and I laughed. "It's true! Don't laugh. We need to find men that are taller and wealthier. It gets a lot harder when we're becoming wealthier ourselves."

It sounds almost unbelievable, but there it is. I was invited to her wedding later, where she settled for a man who made less than her.

It's not necessarily that people's priorities changed, it could simply be that they were forced to settle as their options shrank. Same goes for the men. When you're poorer yourself, due to competition and shittier economy, you're kind of forced to consider your potential partner's wealth.

This angle is supported by the rise of DINK families and lower marriage rates. People are forced to work more and be more productive for the same quality of life, and at the same time, they only marrying at the last minute when they are out of options. That is the darker angle to this story.

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No wonder TRPers don't like women making a lot of money, it makes it harder for you to just flash your wealth and be viewed as sexy. You'd have to also develop other positive qualities in your life if your partner is the same as you financially.

Nice smear attempt but that applies to pretty much every study of humans ever. It's a well known fact that expectations determine happiness to a degree and that humans naturally want more.

It's not bad to tell someone to choose a mate who is happy with a studio apartment over the entitiled tumblerina who took out a 50k loan for a useless graduate degree in Social Justice expecting the lifestyle her engineer father gave her.

This is definitely one of those nature v nurture cases.

Nature vs nurture is some mo bullshit perpetuated by people unable to read the undeniable conclusions of twin studies showing the clear effect of genetics on behaviors.

Yeah you're able to tweak some behavioral quirks with conditioning, but you can't train humans to go completely against their natures ~~(unless you pull some kim jong un tier shit)~~ so unfortunately this:

an erosion of gender differentiation in mating preferences

will never happen.

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[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nature vs nurture is some mo bullshit perpetuated by people unable to read the undeniable conclusions of twin studies showing the clear effect of genetics on behaviors.

Are you reading the same twin studies I read? There are varying results depending on the behavior analyzed. Monozygotic twins often don't even share the same sexual orientation. When one twin is gay, there's an 80 to 90 percent chance the other twin is straight. If Monozygotic twins can have different sexual orientations, how can you expect them to have the same sexual preferences, behavior, ect?

Yeah you're able to tweak some behavioral quirks with conditioning, but you can't train humans to go completely against their natures (unless you pull some kim jong un tier shit) so unfortunately this:

What is someone's nature? If you have two people with the same DNA, one gay and one straight, what precisely can you say about their nature? This shit is really complicated.

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[–]Cactuar_TamerMaking poor life choices.7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It really isn't like that, though?

I look around the real world and I see plenty of long-term couples where the man is being supported, even more if you count ones where he was being supported for some extended period of time.

One of my closer current friends is a house husband/employed by his wife in her translation business. (He edits) and is THE caretaker for the couple's 3 children. His wife works insane hours on the translation jobs.

My own parents met at the Yacht club. My mother was a customer, my dad was working there. She came from a more affluent place, and she always made more money than him, picking up even more of the slack after the economy caused him to get laid off and he was in a bad car accident that further impacted his life. And yet they had pretty much the perfect marriage until death did they part.

Both relationships are/were strongly characterized by mutual respect and love, and yes, an ongoing, active sex life.

This stuff about how providing for men or having men show vulnerability is guaranteed to make women lose respect and attraction for them is just bullshit that I've never once seen play out in real life.

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Title	what modern men and women desire in a mate?
Author	mitreddit
Upvotes	1
Comments	45
Date	October 3, 2014 10:17 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/2i88vq/what_modern_men_and_women_desire_in_a_mate/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-modern-men-and-women-desire-in-a-mate.284694 https://theredarchive.com/post/284694

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