TRP and racism. | PurplePillDebate

sudo_make_install · 2013-11-08T03:02:10+00:00

Posting in comments due to rules....

[–]sudo_make_install[S] 13 points14 points15 points 12 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

I was recently banned from /r/TheRedPill because I opposed white nationalist comments on the subreddit. These comments were heavily upvoted and mine were downvoted. This implies that these ideas are possibly held by perhaps even the majority of redpillers.

This leads me to believe that there is a very strong racist and white nationalist attitude in the community that colors their entire ideology. Although, there is nothing really racist in official ideology, the entire "conflict" against women seems suspiciously similar to how white nationalists view themselves. Despite insistence that TRP is mainly about understanding the truth about sexual relationships and self improvement based on these truths, I sense a very strong hostile siege mentality. A common theme in white nationalism (and many facist movements) is that of a golden past that is being destroyed by modern, degenerate forces. In white nationalism, these values are liberalism and multiculturalism, and TRP seems to treat feminism the same way.

Interestingly, there are white nationalist communities that also adopt the "red pill" moniker, with the same analogy of finding the truth in the sea of the "brainwashed" majority. Although these ideologies and groups are ostensibly different, I can't help but feel, based on what I experienced, that there is a very significant overlap.

You may argue that white nationalism isn't racism, but that is a somewhat separate topic, and by most people's standards, it is pretty much the definition of racism.

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of course trp is racist or more likely to be. how is the white power movement any different from a movement which miss-perceives that the dominant group in society (men), by losing some of the power it traditionally had (when women had no rights/standing/power/freedom), is now oppressed? the trp is not unlike the nazi phenomenon. a depressed, low functioning, selfish mindset angry over the changing world and desiring to return to an older era where germany was dominant. if the modern world became a matriarchy and men really had few rights compared to women, it would be less ridiculous. but as reality actually is, it's kind of funny... except for the fact that delusional depressed males are more likely to act out violently and hurt others. the best way to understand trp is to consider that if 1% or rapes were false, and 99% were true, trp-ites would still care more about the 1% or fake rapes. why? because sociopaths don't care about other people. a crime that doesn't effect them, rape, doesn't matter to them, but one that does, fake rape allegations, is all important even if in the grand scheme of things it's a fraction of evil in the world. sociopaths only care about what could hurt them, fuck everyone/everything else.

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even by cursory inspection very extreme.

Again, according to who? This statement would work if you substituted "even" with "only". They are extreme because you don't believe them.

I would have agreed with you years ago when I accidentally found myself becoming very "beta" in my relationship, but when I stopped wondering why people didn't conform to my preconceived notion of normal behavior and simply observed and reflected on people's interactions it became obvious why such beliefs aren't extreme.

I see it as very irrational and conspiratorial.

"I see it". Not "It is".

I'm not even sure why you're bringing feminism into this discussion.

3rd wave feminism is more commonly discussed by both TRP and its detractors. I used it to make the important point of how perspective can blind you to your own biases (i.e., I can rightfully make the same claims against TRP's opponents).

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Why are you jumping from him saying he would hypothetically allow a discussion about racism, or violence on his sub(which is all that was said) to "he believes that violence is an important part of sexual strategy."

That's not what I said, and I don't even believe that. I don't even say that I believe that, and my statement was based on the assumption that he doesn't believe that. I think it's irony that you'll complain about context and twisting words and then do the same thing in literally the same paragraph. Same sentence, even.

You say you could be wrong, but I'm inclined to believe that is a qualifier to get away with misrepresenting what was actually said.

As noted above, it's a qualifier intended to say that I could be wrong about The Red Pill not being purely about sexual strategy. That argument (for this post at least) is based on /u/redpillschool's statement that if he could, he'd allow racism and discussions of violence.

If I'm wrong in my assumption (that /u/redpillschool doesn't believe racism and violence are parts of sexual strategy) and he truly believes his previous statements (that he'd allow discussion of violence and racism if he could get away with it) then that leads me to believe that The Red Pill is something more than sexual strategy.

This is not proof, and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. If you can show me where he says the statement in question, I'll approve your comment.

You've taken my words out of context and misunderstood them. I hope that this part of your comment is null, because I never said that he believes racism and violence are part of sexual strategy. It's even part of my evidence that it's not part of sexual strategy.

I'll also make a suggestion. If you think you could be wrong about someone else's position on something, clarify it with them.

He's never going to respond to me. Am I supposed to go to The Red Pill and get banned, or go here and hope for a discussion? I provide context where needed, and I almost always ask for clarification- to the point of rephrasing a question a couple to make absolutely sure that they believe what they say.

He's also said that he's not going to talk to me, so should I just abandon any mention of /u/redpillschool? Actually, this complaint of yours doesn't make sense. I did have a previous discussion with him and I literally linked to the context and only rephrased what he said from "the discussion [of violence and racism] could take place [if I could avoid the ToS]" to "he'd allow discussion of violence and racism if he could get away with it". That's not an accusation.

I'm sure you wouldn't want someone accusing you of something like "You believe that violence is an important part of sexual strategy." without proof that you hold that position.

I didn't even accuse him of that! Re-read my comment! My argument hinges on his belief that those two aren't part of sexual strategy! I only noted that if I was wrong in that assumption, my argument would be wrong. Rather than devolve into yet another rape discussion, I preemptively made obvious the implications of such a counterpoint.

I hope you'll approve my comment and take it for what it is. What he believes is part of sexual strategy is tertiary, and I assumed that he doesn't believe that violence and racism are part of sexual strategy. You've misunderstood or misread me. Maybe if I said "I'd be wrong" rather than "I could be wrong" you'd have gotten my meaning (but then that'd be potentially inaccurate, because it precludes me from pointing other extraneous crap).

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[–]redpillschoolRed Pill14 points15 points16 points 12 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

In blue pill world, allowing discussion to broach the topic of race is racist, and discussion about the reality that violence has been used by some of our ancestors is an endorsement of violence.

More thought police super-sensitive social justice warriorism here. If red pill school said "the discussion could take place" then he whole heartedly endorses basically anything blue pillers want to pretend he endorses.

I'm not engaging this thread, man. At what point do you just think to yourself, well if these people are so hellbent on having a position and feelings about the red pill and me that simple things like reality won't sway them.. well that's not a debate.

I get the vibe that this isn't debate at all, but instead a smear sub. No offense to you, alphamod, cause you've done a good job trying to be impartial, but the level of absolutely absurd bending of statements to serve these people's agenda is tiring.

You can see it with the number of times the "rape" or "voting" debates have happened. We conclude that well rps never really did say that but heck, once we forget the debate took place, we can make the same accusations again.

This sort of thought policing is interesting to me. It's obvious that feminism and the blue pill as a whole has public opinion on their side. But not because public opinion is well informed. Quite to the contrary, they have made boogey men out of red pillers, pointing to rape and misogyny as the reason we shouldn't be trusted. And when the topics are not politically correct, no debate has to take place. No honesty here, no introspection. All you have to do is make sure they realize the topic is not politically correct... and if you have the discussion.. are you sure you're not a rapist? You're talking about rape.. sounds like a rapist to me..

On the topic of introspection, I suspect that the people here arguing against red pill would rather disagree by lying about their own position than admit that we have even one thing in common.

I will admit I was here because it was entertaining to watch and take part in the debate. But frankly I think the fun really has vanished with people like angatar's honesty. This is not an insult- nor an attack. It's quite blatant at this point that he/she has been misquoting me and misrepresenting my opinion since this sub opened, and at this point I'm drawing a line. It happens, you intercede, we finally get to a conclusion that it was wrong, slap on the wrist, on to the next one. Again, and again, and again. Should he/she get caught, changing everything to a question is the simplest way to skirt the rules. "Does RPS rape babies? I don't know, it seems like it but maybe i'm wrong."

These are allegations that I simply will no longer address.

I'm not sure what you or anybody else can do as moderators, but I'm confident that as it stands, this will slowly devolve further into blue pill circle jerk until there is simply just another blue pill sub.

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racist violence and mass murder is bad

this is a package deal i dont accept

racist violence would be a black guy killing an aleut because he HATES eskimos. this is not any worse than anyone killing anyone for any illicit reason.

mass murder is a private citizen going up into a belltower and shooting 100 people, or, say crashing planes into skyscrapers

war and conquest arent murder. murder is the ILLICIT killing of others. war is LICIT. in war a soldier is acting as an agent of the sovereign and is imbued with the sovereigns monopoly on th elegal use of violence. there has never been a colonization or conquest that was based on "racism" but on the desire to gain access to more resources or spread an religion or ideology. that one ethnic group happens to conquer an ethnic group doesnt make it "racist violence", it makes it war and conquest

and no, i dont think "war" (what youre calling racist violence and mass murder)is bad in the abstract, like clausewitz said, war is politics carried out by othe rmeans. its a natural part of the human condition that is sometimes necessary

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Sure dude, you can basically label anything you disagree with as concern trolling. And it is blatantly obvious that you (and by extension your moderator team) practice selective enforcement on off topic issues that it's kind of laughable that you claim to be fair. Any inflammatory post (this really depends on your viewpoint) that offends you is labeled as "disrespectful" and ones that don't "contribute to the discussion".

Let's be clear. There is a bar past which an idea can be considered racist, or else the word basically loses all meaning. White nationalists and their supporters try to keep moving this goal post in order to avoid the negative (and rightly so) connotations of the word "racism". No one likes to think they're wrong, but this is such a common tactic that you might not even realize that you're using it.

Just from a practical point of view, your subreddit should in theory have nothing to do with race, but your selective enforcement and self-confirmation bias is making it one. Just because you oppose the mainstream on one issue doesn't mean you should just openly accept anything else that also opposes it.

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But he will clarify. He'd probably be more inclined to do so if the question was worded neutrally as well. Just the other day we cleared up a common misconception, about the whole women voting thing.

He doesn't respond to me. He wrote up a whole essay for you and didn't even respond to me. Just the other day, you had to ask him because he wouldn't respond to me.

If I'm supposed to take his words as literal, then his quote (from an now deleted comment, but you can search his comment history from a couple days ago during the voting discussion to see in full) that says:

I'm not ashamed. I am, however, done talking to you.

is to be believed, he's not going to respond to me.

Saying he will allow racism on his sub is not the same as saying he will allow discussion of racism. That's what I'm complaining about.

Then I suppose we just have different interpretations. I asked about suggestions of violence and racism. If he's tired of people not understanding him, he can say things more clearly.

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[–]redpillschoolRed Pill1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There is some amount of racial talk I leave up, for instance a few of our more prominent endorsed contributors are black, asian, and middle eastern. I find comments on their cultures interesting. I have to add that when I see discussion about, say, black women, that it's a reference to the american black culture and not an actual intrinsic property of women who are black.

I don't doubt that there might be differences between the races but based on the amount of time humans evolved genders vs races, I doubt they're very big differences mentally (if at all) and I don't think it's relevant to our discussion.

Talk about cultural differences are encouraged though.

If you see any real racism where somebody is actually hating on a group by color, message the mods so we can ban them. This is expressly not allowed.

BTW some of our black members use the term "niggers" and I don't consider it hate speech but instead the way they speak.

[–]Wolfwoodd2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

I don't really see how the element of race plays a role in sexual strategy. If anything, being raciest just limits the number of girls you can have sex with. For that alone, racism should be discouraged. I don't see how somebody Red Pill could make a rational argument that being racist is a good thing.

On the flip side, guys who are new to TRP tend to be bitter individuals, who have been badly burned by past relationships. Guys who are bitter and angry tend to lash out at easy targets: women, minorities, etc. One of the goals of the red pill is to take this anger and bitterness and channel it towards self improvement. Once guys start making the transition from anger-filled beta to confident alpha.. I think the hateful thoughts greatly diminish. After all, it's easy to hate things/people when your life sucks.

Just my 2 cents.

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I'm sure you've heard, it's purely cultural, right? No. African Americans originate from a region in West Africa. One physical difference between West Africans and other races is their bones are far denser. This is great for sprinting, which is what West Africans are built for, but horrible for swimming. They sink! African American culture is void of swimming because with their bodies, swimming is not enjoyable and quite dangerous.

This is untrue.

Evidence indicates that people of African descent were generally stronger swimmers than people of European descent. Many Africans used these skills on a daily basis. They incorporated swimming into various occupations, such as fishing, canoeing and salvage diving. Africans also shifted these abilities into recreational activities, including surfing. As enslaved Africans were shipped throughout the Atlantic world, many took these skills with them, incorporating swimming and diving into their work and recreational activities.

I'd recommend reading the entire paper, as it discusses the importance of swimming during American slavery and theorizes as to why the prevalence of swimming has declined in the African-American community.

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I agree, to a point. Generalizations and stereotypes are the easiest way to describe a group of people. Where they go wrong is when they are applied to an individual. Furthermore, as globalization becomes more prevalent, the races will intermingle to a point where it wont even matter.

Anyway, the point I'm attempting to make is that espousing racial thinking in a social environment isn't going to improve your odds of getting laid. Therefore, racism and TRP don't actually mix very well.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to point out that we are talking about radically different things. I was talking about the prevalence of race-based discrimination in the TRP subreddit and you are talking about racial qualities originating from bio-diversification. It's apples and oranges.

EDIT2: Also, whoever downvoted my first comment can fuck themselves. It's extra-annoying when people go out of their way to do that in this subreddit. It's the main reason I typically avoid posting here. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

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[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago* (55 children) | Copy Link

the red pill metaphor is used by many different groups who feel they have "pierced the veil of lies" in our extremely politically correct culture. there is often an intersection, for example, with redpill, conspiracy theories, paleo dieting, race realism:

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Race_realism

and particularly human biodiversity. i ended up discovering the man o sphere via the humanbiodiversity (HBD) sphere, quite by accident

HBD primer here:

http://jaymans.wordpress.com/hbd-fundamentals/#modern

note that #2 on the list of the table of contents is biological sex differences

because HBD intersects with "race realism" and race realism also attracts common racISTS, you end up with a clusterfuck of related, but not always in agreement, groups all seeking to use the information found in HBD to political or racist ends, as opposed to just understanding the humans

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Assume it's true for a moment. Should we lock this information away and hide it? Some would say yes, for the greater good of society in general. This is the problem with political correctness in general, it gets married to a particular thesis, and anyone who disagrees must lose their job or be discredited and ejected from academia. There is a climate of fear on certain topics, such as the RP, because the implications are too severe and would upset too many people if proven true.

Feminism has too much invested in the noble ideal of equality to consider RP theory. People open to RP tend to question everything that is assumed to be true by society with a high degree of political correctness attached to it. Political correctness can be used as a system of control to stifle debate on a wide range of sensitive issues, and some people are acutely distrustful of it. For this reason, I suspect most RPers are atheists as well, but far fewer say boo about that today (however they sure did 100+ years ago).

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[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

What studies?

This one

Who is that again?

Arthur Jensen

Because its not true - everyone is equal - and thinking otherwise justifies the degradation of targeted communities to various degrees. It just spreads misery under the illusion of fairness.

People aren't equal. People aren't born equal. However we should treat people equally and grant people equal opportunity. I don't see how this would change with the knowledge that some races have slightly lower IQs than others.

People cannot prove that they are equal and worthy if you deny them the capacity to do so.

We're talking about averages here. Even if African Americans were to have lower IQs than average, there would be significant statistical overlap. Besides, hiring someone based on race rather than merit is profiling, and it's actually illegal. I don't see how any IQ findings could change that.

[–]IRScientistSober4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Neither of these sources really seems to strongly support a racial component of intelligence.

From Wiki:

Loehlin (2000) reiterates the confounding problems of the study and notes that both genetic and environmental interpretations are possible. He further offers another possible explanation of the results, namely unequal prenatal factors: "[O]ne possibility lies in the prenatal environment provided by Black and White biological mothers. The Black-Black group, of course, all had Black mothers. In the Black-White group, virtually all of the birth mothers were White (66 of 68). Willerman and his colleagues found that in interracial couples it made a difference whether the mother was Black or White: The children obtained higher IQs if she was White. They suspected that this difference was due to postnatal environment, but it could, of course, have been in the prenatal one."

From the Times article:

Today, some psychologists say that Professor Jensen’s work has been misunderstood. In a telephone interview on Wednesday, Douglas Detterman, a psychologist at Case Western Reserve University who edits the journal Intelligence, said: “If you look at the Harvard Educational Review paper, he discusses race very little in that paper, but he did say that it’s a possibility that there are genetic differences among racial groups. And that was not a very popular idea when that paper came out.”

Professor Detterman, who in 1998 devoted a special issue of Intelligence to Professor Jensen’s work, added: “When he wrote that paper, probably a large portion of psychologists wouldn’t have believed that there was a hereditary basis for intellectual ability. Now, there’s very little argument about that in the field. Whether there are differences between races is another thing altogether.”

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[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

He's famous for ignoring evidence that contradicts his position and for woefully misunderstanding/misrepresenting concepts like heritability in order to make the claims he does.

Are you kidding? This guy was one of the most respected figures in his field. Before him, everyone thought intelligence was 100% the result of environment. Now, it's commonly accepted that genetics and heritability are the largest factors in determining intelligence. He completely changed the field.

Which is understandable, as you can't exactly get millions of dollars of funding from white nationalist organisations and then conclude that there are no differences in the races.

This is a logical fallacy. As much as I hate Fox News, you can't point to any article they write and say it's biased. You have to examine the article and point out whats wrong. Same goes for your argument. It doesn't matter if this was funded by the KKK, you have to read it and judge it on it's own merits.

His work is only "convincing" if we don't actually analyse his methodology or the validity of his claims.

His work is convincing on it's own, and definitely merits further study. Go read his papers. Without reading it, you can't really criticize it.

[–]mrsamsa2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Are you kidding? This guy was one of the most respected figures in his field.

Well that's a pretty controversial claim. He added some valuable information to the work on IQ and psychometrics in general, but his research into race differences in IQ was highly contested and not overly respected. Just look at how the field reacted to the pseudoscience contained in "The Bell Curve", which largely cited his work.

Before him, everyone thought intelligence was 100% the result of environment. Now, it's commonly accepted that genetics and heritability are the largest factors in determining intelligence. He completely changed the field.

That's just blatantly false. IQ was conceptualised initially as a genetic construct, which is why the eugenics movement focused so heavily on trying to breed smart people and leaving 'stupid' people out of the gene pool. This position has been tempered over time but there has never been a blank slatist view of behavior in science, particularly in respect to intelligence.

This is a logical fallacy. As much as I hate Fox News, you can't point to any article they write and say it's biased. You have to examine the article and point out whats wrong. Same goes for your argument. It doesn't matter if this was funded by the KKK, you have to read it and judge it on it's own merits.

There's no logical fallacy because I never claimed that he was wrong because of his association and I criticised his work for the content of his claims. I pointed out his conflict of interest because it is a recognised confound in research and necessarily leads us to be careful in interpreting the results.

Of course it doesn't mean that it's automatically wrong, which is why I'd never suggest that.

His work is convincing on it's own, and definitely merits further study. Go read his papers. Without reading it, you can't really criticize it.

I have read his work, in detail and it really isn't convincing. He constantly confuses the concept of 'heritability', fails to account for a range of environmental variables, and dismisses most major environmental/learning contributions to IQ as irrelevant. He literally refers to anybody who disagrees with his work as the "culture-only" view, even though there are no blank slatists in the field.

To lay my cards out on the table, I'm not even opposed to the possibility of there being a true difference in IQ between races. There is already an observed difference and I'm not currently convinced that it can all be accounted for by environmental factors. But Jensen's work is as embarrassing as Herrnstein and Murray's "The Bell Curve". If a true genetic difference in IQ was ever to be found between races, it won't be because of any contribution to the field by idiots like Jensen or Rushton.

[–][deleted] 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]CFRProflcopter( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

How do you know that people aren't born equal?

Because people inherit different traits. 40 to 60 percent of personality is genetic. Intelligence is partially heritable. People are born different from each other.

I don't see how you could treat others equally if you don't believe them to be inherently equal to you. I don't see how your beliefs wouldn't impact your actions in some regard. I mean - if that's what you think, that's what you think - I'm not here to police your thoughts.

We do it now. It's widely accepted in the scientific community that people are born with different capabilities and that heritability shapes how who we are just as much as than the environment in which we're raised. Yet despite this, if you were to take a poll of citizens, most people would say that people should have equal opportunity. Most people will say that you shouldn't profile based on race or gender. Does profiling happen? Yes. But most people in society disagree with it on principal.

You're just affirming what you believe here without any evidence to justify it. I'm not saying such an experiment would prove that some races have consistently lower IQs than others, I believe this experiment would show the exact opposite.

It was a hypothetical suggestion and argument. If we found a difference.

If we conducted this experiment not just once, but multiple times, I believe we would find that the average IQ of every race changes in relation to other races' average IQs over time.

Based on what? IQ is partially hereditary. So if races didn't intermingle and produce interracial offspring, it's safe to say that if any [specifically genetic] correlations were found today, they'd still exist in the future.

Just because such an experiment can be imagined doesn't mean we have automatically reached the verdict of your favor. But if we were to collect evidence that conclusively showed one race's lower IQ average for a significant duration of time - and I really doubt we would - that could be used to justify unfair treatment. But again, I doubt the difference would be that vast or constant.

(1) I agree. I don't think this has been proven in any way. It's still hotly debated in the scientific community. (2) Why could results be used to justify unfair treatment?

We have never conducted such an experiment nor will we ever because there is no real doubt that the races aren't more or less intellectually equal.

Actually, there really is doubt. These concepts are hotly contested in the relevant fields. By definition, that means there's doubt in the scientific community. We're probably 40-60 years away from knowing the answer.

We shouldn't discuss averages, we should discuss outliers - the geniuses found within each race that demonstrate that race's intellectual potential. We shouldn't discuss averages, we should discuss outliers - the geniuses found within each race that demonstrate that race's intellectual potential.

No, they demonstrate that a person with that particular DNA has intellectual potential. IQ can realistically only be influenced by environment so much. Most people, regardless of upbringing, simply could never have genius IQs.

What we should be talking about is that not all people are born with the same capabilities, but we should give everyone the tools they need to reach their potential, make sound decisions, and live a happy life regardless of their intellectual ability. It's nice to be smart, but it's nicer to be nice.

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Title	TRP and racism.
Author	sudo_make_install
Upvotes	14
Comments	132
Date	November 8, 2013 3:02 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1q5fri/trp_and_racism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/trp-and-racism.286643 https://theredarchive.com/post/286643

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