This is like DiCaprio saying older women are beautiful and interesting and then fucking 19 year olds

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She is an actress and activist. She played the role of Tahani in The Good Place.

She flip flops and changes her stances on things when she gets too much criticism from the left, such as when she complained that women sexualising themselves in the media isn't good for the development of women.

She got attacked for slut shaming and she then blamed the Patriarchy and said it's not women's fault, but men's. She then said sexualising yourself is okay if it's your choice, though she is now angry at Instagram models for selling unrealistic body standards to young girls.

She had a chance to point out a problem with pop stars who wear skimpy outfits being role models for little girls but didn't want to lose social status or publicity for her caus. She also began claiming she was queer when the left got mad at her for stealing the role of a lesbian in a show or something.

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I mean... the famous actress/model might have sex with you. It's possible. But you probably won't be having sex with her. Mainly not because you're short, or even because you like TRP, but because she is a famous actress lady and I'd imagine moves in different circles and would find you showing up to ask her for sex disconcerting.
So I wouldn't bother, if I was you.

The DiCaprio thing is funny. Because the 'he spends his free time on yachts with Victoria's Secret models' is always spoken about sort of as... a running joke.
Funnily enough the only time I remember seeing it discussed was on an article from Jezebel I think it was back in the day, and someone was musing "Is it OK to make fun of Leonardo DiCaprio for being a huge walking cliché, or is that actually kind of judgy?".
I'm sure there are some people out there who are outraged that he likes sleeping with 22 year old underwear models, but... it mainly seems to get an amused eye-roll.

Because most of the time if say a male actor who is a soy boy cuck looking to get some brownie points from the feminazi SJWs by saying something like "I don't think that its right how women in Hollywood and even elsewhere are judged more for their appearance than what they can do, or pigeonholed out of certain types of roles and expectations" - everyone is like "Oh, thats nice that he said that".

They don't go googling to find out who is wife/girlfriend/ex is and then go "WELL SHE SEEMS TO BE ATTRACTIVE! IF HE BELIEVES IT IS REALISTIC THAT UNATTRACTIVE PEOPLE COULD BE IN RELATIONSHIPS, THEN WHY IS HE NOT IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH ONE? HYPOCRITE!".

Because that is clearly, fucking... ego-rage insanity to everyone who isn't on this subreddit, apparently.

I mean, some of you are kidding around in general and especially with purge week and all. But there seem to be some people in these comments who genuinely believe a woman who expresses a non-hatred of short men dating a tall man is proof she is clearly in the deception game.

This shit is why people think y'all are crazy. Exhibit 15,280.

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[–]CentralAdmin3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I mean, would you trust a politician who is anti LGBT rights but is caught banging male prostitutes?

That would seem hypocritical, right?

What about if a Terper says men should never marry but he gets married?

Or if a feminist says women shouldn't be treated as property but she has a misogynist fetish and goes home to a man who berates and controls her?

Or an overweight person who tells other fat people that they should eat better, but they're eating fast food daily?

Or what about an alcoholic telling you that you should never drink before noon when they're in the pub at 10am?

We've had a phrase for this since forever: "Practice what you preach."

That's important because otherwise you come off looking like a hypocrite. It doesn't matter if the message is good. What matters is whether you have the courage of your convictions. Your words ring hollow if they're not backed up by action.

Otherwise we wouldn't get mad at politicians who say one thing and do another. At best we can say that people who advocate for something they don't practice are trying to be helpful but anyone can advocate for anything without actually putting in any effort. A lot of MRA types get criticised here for their movement not apparently doing anything, for example.

And for all their claims of actually being interested in men's issues, feminists are still very much anti-men.

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[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman-1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

We've had a phrase for this since forever: "Practice what you preach."

But she said: "You shouldn't judge and shame men for their height."

She didn't say: "You shouldn't judge and shame men for their height - you should only sleep with short men."

1) We don't know if she has any sexual preference about height. My husband is an inch taller than me, but I've dated both shorter and taller men. Maybe her boyfriend just happens to be tall, but she is equally up for short men. Maybe you guys are completely correct and she would never ever sleep with a short guy. You don't know which of these is correct from her having a tall boyfriend, it doesn't SHOW anything.

2) Even if her sexual preference is for taller men, she can still think that 'body shaming' men for being short - making jokes, dismissing them, saying it makes them less of a man or less sexual, talking about them as if they are inferior - is a problem and wrong. Responding to tweets dismissing men for being short, saying that writing that is hurtful and not OK. She doesn't have to fuck short men in order to think that body shaming short men is wrong.

When people are talking about body shaming in terms of weight, they are not primarily or even at all talking about who YOU should be fucking. They are saying we should't make jokes and comments about people being fat, that we shouldn't say they're disgusting, that we shouldn't make assumptions about what they are like as people.
They might even say that you should reflect on whether your preference for thin people, if you have one, could maybe be related to social messaging you have absorbed - which would be OK, but a thing. And that maybe if a fat woman flirts with you and you don't want to date her, to think of her simply as a woman you don't want to date, rather than below you "Guys a fatty just hit on me, it was hilarious".

That is what social activism related to combating negative stereotypes is. I know you guys think it's all SJW nonsense so wouldn't be engaging with it, and maybe that is why you don't know this. But that is what it is.

And - I really can't stress this enough (to these comments in general not because of what you said):

Just because YOU might only view women's respect, regard and support as important in terms of whether they are fucking you - fucking is not the only way people can demonstrate their respect, regard and support. That is a you thing, not a 'Women are hypocrites' thing.

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[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Attraction ain't equal opportunity and y'all SJWs haven't figured that shit out.

I think they have, mate. Thats why DiCaprio gets a 'such a cliché' eye roll rather than 'he wants to fuck underwear models? I am SHOCKED!'.
They tend to be more about believing that a woman's (or man's as well, as Jameela helpfully pointed out) conventional sexual attractiveness shouldn't be held as a signifier of their worth, and that more conventionally attractive people shouldn't be snotty to less so because "I'm better than you". And that its OK for old or not attractive women to like... exist and be seen and stuff.

Pretty sure short men care more about the fucking than the douchebags, and that's like tough beans ain't it?

I mean... yeah. Sort of. (It definitely seems possible that if we as a society were less judgmental and shitty, more people would explore how they can be attracted to people who don't tick all the conventional boxes. Likely, even. So that would be an improvement for them, surely. Probably still won't get laid as much as conventionally attractive people - but oh well.)

You'd think having everyone look down on you (genuinely no pun intended) as lesser would kind of... compound how sad you are about getting less sex from hot people or not having a girlfriend? But if it doesn't... well surely thats a good thing. Maybe they're going to have to work harder at not only viewing their self worth as tied to their fucking opportunities, but social acceptance has got to help them with that.

Maybe as women we don't get it because we have abundance mentality and we couldn't possibly understand the pain (though women get sad about not having someone to be intimate with as well so...).
But maybe its because women are more used to being socially judged almost entirely by how attractive they are to men as a whole. So if they're allowed to go about their life achieving and doing, without being told "Yeah thats nice for sure, but no one wants to fuck you so" constantly... thats actually a massive improvement for them?
Not having a boyfriend might suck, but it doesn't suck as much as every tiny thing you do being perceived as 'the OK-I-suppose actions of someone who could never have a boyfriend'. Because lacking intimacy is hard on your self worth, but having that as well is even harder.

That could be why women don't understand why they could be doing the very thing that they were just asked to do (agreeing that sneering at short men is also body shaming), and then screamed at for not doing it right.

[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I actually do kind of get the whole incel "But if what I really want is a sexual partner, your words about how that isn't the only thing in life are pretty meaningless and insulting, your compassion means nothing to me" bit we're touching on here.

If you really really desperately want to have sex, and people are saying and doing things but they aren't fucking you, it must all seems a bit pointless.

The problem is the false equivalency, which this is providing a good example of.

You can't insist on sex, intimacy or friendship from other people. You can insist on the right to be viewed as someone worthy of sex, intimacy and friendship. THAT is what the whole 'body shaming' thing is about, with the fat women in bikinis - not insisting people should find you attractive, but saying that you have the right to put yourself out there as someone who could be found attractive. I do think that sometimes confuses men because they're used to images of 'women being sexy' being... tailored to them. But whatever.

Its like with the disability sexual rights movement (which on the fringes can indeed get a bit incel-type sketchy). It's not the 'right for an individual to find you sexy' it's 'the right to be considered an individual who could be sexy'. It may seem like a vague and unimportant distinction, but actually it is a vital one.

And if your whole thing is anger and sadness that no one is finding you sexy, and other people are asking for the right to be found sexy, it must sort of seem like they're asking for the world while you have nothing. But - even if you're in pain and suffering - they're not equivalent demands. Not even in the slightest.

I've been really sad about something, and someone has said "Chin up, luv. Look on the positive side and it will be alright!". And you know that they probably mean well, maybe they're even correct, but you still want to smack them in the face. So even if I don't know the depths of your suffering or whatever, I do kind of get what seemingly empty words of commiseration must feel like.

But they are mainly just trying to help. People who said they feel really sad. And actually starting to work on yourself (hobbies, friends, not just hanging around echo chamber message boards about how unfuckable you all are) is probably the best thing you can do - even if you can't do it, it would be the best thing to try. So... what else do you expect people to say?
I know I know... black pill nothingness, they can never get it, they should shut up, just let me rot... but surely they (incels) can at least GET why it isn't because they're awful hypocrites?

And if they're saying that people are using the way they are as an insult... OF COURSE you're going to respond like Jameela Jamil did. "Hey everyone, these guys are sad and saying that everyone is just insulting them about it. We should all agree that its wrong to insult them for not being conventionally attractive [or being a virgin]!".

Because the only other options are fucking them against our will or pity fucking them, and it seems from the way they talk they'd just find the latter insulting anyway (also... no).

And that might suck and hurt to high heaven, but its not hypocrisy.

.....

Anyway inappropriate for Purge Week conversation, but I feel like I see the whole incel dialogue issue a bit better now, so that is something.

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She should have at least a few short boyfriends in her past.

Maybe she has I dunno? My husband is an inch taller than me, but I've dated men who were significantly shorter than me and those who were a lot taller in my past. Maybe that isn't 'average', but who knows if Jameela is? In my experience taller women such as myself and this actress actually tend to be less particular about height - because you've been forced to get over the 'women have to be the little dainty ones' by walking around every day while as tall as half the male population.
But there are totally tall women who won't date men under 6' as well, maybe she is like that. Maybe that is more likely, maybe it isn't, whatever.
I don't know who she has fucked. Or care.

I also recommend that women judge men by their actions and not their words as well.

Ok... so let's say you're slim and you've only dated slim women. But you see in society that fat people are often treated badly because of their weight - bullied, mocked, seen as lesser, seen as disgusting, denied any sexual agency, their whole personality judged, etc. And now some fat people are saying "Its not OK to treat us like this!".

You've only dated slim girls as I said - maybe because of happenstance, maybe because you've been socially conditioned to see them as more attractive, maybe because of an inherent sexual preference that you or most men have, maybe all three.

But you agree with the fat people about what they're saying. It seems cruel to you, and unhelpful, that they are treated that way in a general sense. You know that it isn't true that treating them like shit makes them lose weight, in fact the opposite in most cases, so that doesn't seem like a reason to be mean to you. And just because you're not dating fat women or men, it doesn't mean that its not OK for others to do so, or they should be denied the expectation they might get dates.

If you then said "I think fat shaming happens and it is bad", and I said "You don't seem to have dated any fat women, YOU LIAR, ACTIONS NOT WORDS!!!" - would I be sensible in my response?

Now maybe you personally have dated fat women or fat men and/or you see no problem with mocking fat people. I don't know, whatever.

But do you see the problem with assuming that who someone is dating must accurately reflect their genuine stance on wider social issues?

[–]antonio_aurelio0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Well, I mean, the only situation where short men really get a lot of crap is in dating. For most short guys, if they had a bunch of people crapping on them on Twitter, but still had a lot of dates, I doubt they would care.

So, to me, as a short guy, a woman that exclusively dates tall guys, but then says something like this just comes off as patronizing.

In terms of fat people, honestly, maybe a bit of shame would be a good then. Ultimately, it's very bad for their health. If they were shamed more, maybe they'd be encouraged to lose weight. They would then have a longer and healthier life.

This is just another way that our society makes no sense: shame short men for being short (when there's nothing we can do about it and it may actually be a net benefit to long-term health), but accept fat people for being fat (which causes the fat person harm and costs society millions and millions of dollars).

[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

In terms of fat people, honestly, maybe a bit of shame would be a good then. Ultimately, it's very bad for their health. If they were shamed more, maybe they'd be encouraged to lose weight. They would then have a longer and healthier life.

Yeah - doesn't work.
Changing ingrained lifestyle and behaviour habits can be very difficult, and shame is a terrible motivator. Just the way it is.

It makes sense if you think about it. You've got these habits, patterns and coping mechanisms, like we all do. You want to try and change your behaviour, take control of your life, but it's really hard to make positive changes because they require you to fight against that feeling that it's all pointless and you can't do it. If people tell you that your problems are because you're a lazy, shit person with just naturally inferior self control - is that going to make you more motivated or less?

A minority of people might just need a sharp reality kick that something like "I think you look like shit" might bring, and the people who know and care about them can maybe make that judgement about the type they are. But for most people a general social stigma that they're awful and inferior has the opposite effect. While making them feel positive about themselves and like it's OK to go outside without being all judging them and being disgusted... unsurprisingly, found to help.
Plus, you know, if they don't manage it... at least they get to have a nice life that isn't all about being fat? You might want them to live longer and not have joint problems... but you don't want them to have an otherwise shitty life on top of that, right?

Look - I'm not being defensive because I'm an obese person who wants people to stop fat shaming me. They don't, because I'm not. I'm not a super hot fitness model either, but this isn't something I struggle with - people don't hate on me for being a fat person because I'm not a fat person. I just see how while some people maybe genuinely think they're helping them, or tell themselves that and do believe it on some level, the majority of this shit is people hiding behind 'I worry about their health!' because they feel disgusted by and judge fat people. And don't want to examine their feelings and be a better person. And/or hide behind it as an excuse to be cruel.

Like... it's nice you're (they're) suddenly deeply concerned about public health, thought a bit weird how its only about health matters you don't like looking at. And how you don't seem interested in looking at the environmental factors that we actually know have led to a more general increase in obesity, what we can do about them together, and how they impact people's habits and coping mechanisms that thin people have as well. But seemingly more focussed on the women in Dove adverts that don't make your dick hard. Makes me wonder.

Especially when it's a 'because people can't change their height/nose size/whatever so that is worse' thing. Because then - yes absolutely don't shit on people for those things either, that is absolutely just as bad or worse.
But it seems silly to always go back to debating the worst kind of being cruel about people's appearance instead of just... agreeing being cruel about people's appearance is bad?

Anyway, just a pet peeve of mine.
Partly because I don't like it when people are mean to each other.
But also - ironically considering the arguments people make for why its okay to be enraged by Lizzo - it's the denial of reality that I find frustrating.

So PSA:
Fat shaming doesn't lead to less fat people. It's just being a dick. Don't do it.

[–]antonio_aurelio0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't fat shame. Honestly, I don't really care what people do. Also, my previous work (which I won't mention here) does make me think about health care spending far more than the average person would.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of fat people do have some kind of issue that makes and keeps them fat (usually either mental health issues or just a lack of self-discipline).

But I can't really think of any way to cause them to lose weight. I think fat acceptance would be much worse than shaming because it would cause them to think "I'm fat and I'm awesome so pass me that hamburger!". Basically, it would empower them to be happy being fat, which I think hurts them and everyone else.

Sometimes, tough love and honesty (not cruelty) is the best solution to a problem.

Do you have a better idea?

[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately, the vast majority of fat people do have some kind of issue that makes and keeps them fat (usually either mental health issues or just a lack of self-discipline).

We all have issues. Or the vast majority of us do. We all eat food, have foods we enjoy and we don't like. But for some people, these things mean being overweight.
It seems like people point at and judge those issues/difficulties in particular, pretending they and other people don't have them, and couch it in 'but their health!'. Which just seems... frustratingly lacking in self awareness to me.

I think fat acceptance would be much worse than shaming because it would cause them to think "I'm fat and I'm awesome so pass me that hamburger!".

I do see the logic behind why people think this. But it doesn't bare out in reality - and if you consider it, of course it doesn't.
People don't eat hamburgers because being fat is awesome. People eat hamburgers because hamburgers taste nice and eating them makes you feel good. That is why they're going to eat the hamburger.

They might turn down the positives of eating the hamburger because they don't want to be fat, I do see that is what you mean. But that is where the psychology of decisions, long term vs. short term decisions, 'lifestyles' vs. 'deprivation', positive motivation vs. negative motivation, etc. come in to play. We all make a sequence of 100s of tiny decisions that weigh up positives and negatives for us every day - "Do I pause the movie and take the trash out or do it after?". And we know that if you tend to make more bad ones in a particular area, it isn't the possibility of shame that tends to change tiny individual behaviours, its making holistically positive lifestyle changes that help the good little changes fall into line.
Individuals might find something like sticking up hot vs. not pictures on the fridge helps, they might find that just makes them sad and therefore harder to resist immediate reward (and just to stress - we all sometimes find it difficult to prioritise long term goals, not just overweight people). Different things work for different people, they're going to have to feel that out for themselves if they want to change.
But as their wider community rather than them or their loved ones, it is our responsibility to them to do what tends to most often work from our position, and in that regard - shame doesn't help, getting enraged when a fat person says "I feel good about myself" doesn't help. Because fat people don't need to be continuously told being fat is less healthy - we have every reason to believe they know that.

If there was actually reason (other than 'common sense' that doesn't hold) or evidence to believe body positive messaging was leading to a real increase in people being an unhealthy weight, that focussing on your positive health things rather than just your weight, all that stuff, was leading to increased obesity, if it gets to that point - THEN I'd agree we have to have a frank conversation about whether we should prioritise health messaging over making people feel better.
But luckily - we don't have to have that conversation right now, because there is no actual reason to believe thats the case or is going to be the case.

Sometimes, tough love and honesty (not cruelty) is the best solution to a problem.

Absolutely. But if tough love doesn't seem to work - why keep doing it?

I have a relative who is an old grizzled doctor. Been in the profession nearly 40 years. Not a 'SJW' - more of the 'can't be doing with all this modern PC nonsense' type old white guy. Cred for being great at his job. You can picture the scene.

And he absolutely thinks the same as me on this.

He often says how younger doctors will sometimes make the 'We need to focus on this person's weight, that'll be the best overall...' call because they mean well, but that it fades with experience (his words not mine).
He thinks you obviously need to give people the information about their health - if being overweight is aggravating a condition, they deserve to be informed. BUT... he'll mention it, leave it at that, and start talking about and focussing on what they can do about the other stuff.
Because in his experience, even if the best thing for the condition would be to lose weight - they're not gonna. They know that being a healthier weight is better. And they're not lacking tough love. Its just... really fucking hard to change patterns and behaviours deeply ingrained into how you operate as a human being, your family and the society around you. To quote him "Sometimes they'll come in overjoyed because they've beat the odds and managed to lose weight. Generally, it's because they've actually got cancer."
That sounds negative and fatalistic as fuck - and it is. But the way he sees it, his job is to use his wealth of medical knowledge and experience to help the person, and if he wastes ages lecturing them about their weight rather than doing what he can for them, he is failing them as patients and as human beings.

Thats the fatalistic thing to do with that information. Or... we could try being positive as well? Seems to work some of the time.
Fits in with making them feel better, and with what we know about the psychology of motivation in terms of if they choose to lose weight.

This is one of those times when the grizzled fatalists, the science and the activists are all on the same page, or near enough. That page being - significant excess weight is medically bad, some good behaviours that might people lose weight and are good to do even if not ('HAES'), but its really fucking hard for most people to change their behaviours in a way that leads to sustained weight loss, there is no magic answer to that (though access to cheap healthy food helps), but a sort of 'growth mindset' "I am fantastic now - I could do that if I wanted, but I'm always great!" is more likely to help than hurt all things considered, and really at the end of the day physical health vs. happiness is kind of a balancing act.
I know it seems like this is a case of happy clappy SJW nonsense vs. the uncomfortable truth. But it isn't.
Today, everybody wins. Yay!

Well, apart from the people who just enjoy being mean to fat people. But fuck them.

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[–]nevomintoarcePurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	This is like DiCaprio saying older women are beautiful and interesting and then fucking 19 year olds
Author	EggonTurdaryen
Upvotes	51
Comments	64
Date	May 6, 2020 4:30 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/genapc/this_is_like_dicaprio_saying_older_women_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/this-is-like-dicaprio-saying-older-women-are.661122 https://theredarchive.com/post/661122

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