I’m a feminist, what more can I do?

FinallyReborn · 2021-04-26T03:52:07+00:00

Yeah if you actually care about this issue, you should stop using the term "toxic masculinity", current experts in men's psychology are decidedly against the concept of toxic masculinity. Both in terms of the theory having never been supported by experimental evidence, and because labelling theory predicts that it will cause people to associate masculinity itself as being toxic. Which is obviously bad for people's mental health and also plays into sexist stereotypes against men.

The term has no cynical value, it's a case of cognitive distortion labelling. The term "toxic" isn't used to describe any other human characteristic, such a term would be unthinkable with reference to age, disability, ethnicity or religion. The same principle of respect must surely apply to men. Developing a more realistic and positive narrative about masculinity in our culture will be a good thing for everyone.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-04384-1_5

That and the fact that the term toxic femininity is a widely frowned upon term, and is commonly referred to as internalized misogyny, therefor women's internalized misogyny is placed blame upon men and masculinity, while men's internalized misandry is again placed blame upon men and masculinity.

username24341 · 2021-04-26T06:26:41+00:00

If you really want to help, stop calling yourself a feminist.

I know you believe in the dictionary definition of feminism, but in practice the influence of the feminist movement (what it accomplishes) comes from radicals. They're the active ones in the movement, pushing their narrative over society and having governments and businesses listening to them.

The moderates aren't doing enough to be significant. They're neither keeping the radicals in check nor counter-balancing the harm they cause. Most moderates are just women who say "I believe in equality so I'm a feminist" but don't even do any kind of activism.

You might want to argue that radicals are just a minority, but I care about what feminism does, not what it believes. And overall it's radicals who do nearly all the doing.

Feminism hurts men by brushing men's issues aside and blaming men for women's issues. The consequence is that society today is blind to many of men's issues, doesn't take victims seriously when they speak up, and has no solution to offer them. And in fact, feminism has also created many of these issues.

And what makes it so hard for men to be heard is that most people believe feminism is the main authority on gender equality. When governments or organizations want to tackle gender issues, they default to asking feminists for advice, which results in creating solutions only for women.

Feminism needs to be discredited in order for this to stop. Society needs to become aware of that hateful, sexist movement it really is. But that's much harder to do when moderates keep saying "Not all feminists! Radicals are just a minority!". And of course, it doesn't help either when moderates swallow and parrot the radical narratives like patriarchy, rape culture and toxic masculinity.

So if you really want to help, stop calling yourself a feminist. Anything else you do won't make a difference until society is no longer under feminist oppression.

UnconventionalXY · 2021-04-26T04:08:39+00:00

Maybe try advocating for human rights that are gender-agnostic and cover all the other group-specific rights.

Advocating for more rights for one group can never lead to equality.

bufedad · 2021-04-26T02:48:10+00:00

You can fight feminists who stand in the way of equality

Frosty-Gate-8094 · 2021-04-26T06:21:08+00:00

Personally, I have no faith in feminism to genuinely fight for men's boys rights.

The issues you are pointing out in your OP, are social issues.
Which is fair, and we do fight for them.

But the more pressing and life-threatening issues that affect men are completely neglected, downplayed or even outright undermined by feminism.

I ll list a few...
Gender biased conscription laws.

Gender biased rape laws.
(This varies from different countries, like in USA where only penetration is counted as rape, to UK/Spain where only male can be recognised as perpetrator- female rapists are booked under sexual assualt which has lower sentence and loopholes to escape. Or in India/Ireland where a woman can legally rape a man and face no punishment.).

No punishment for paternity fraud and non-biological fathers forced to pay child support.

False accusations.

Female on male domestic violence.

Child custody and biased family courts.

As you can see, these are more pressing and life-threatening issues that men only face...

You mentioned one of them, the others are neglected.

Do you really think feminism would fight for them?
Well try raising them and you will see how feminists react. Combined with the 'red pill documentary', it will open your eyes to a reality you aren't probably ready to come face-to-face with.....

Andynnos · 2021-04-25T23:42:21+00:00

I recommend watching the red pill documentary by Cassie Jaye. You will see both sides of the argument in there plus the issues that men face.

SamaelET · 2021-04-26T12:59:34+00:00

About your edit :

There is a severe demonization of male in a lot of new movies/TV shows for teens/young adults. Last example I remember is 13 reasons why where raping is associated with masculinity ("When a boy try to become a man he hurts everybody around").

As others said talking about "patriarchy" "male privileges" and "toxic masculinity" doesn't help men or resolve male issues. It just make things work. It is just a way that feminists use to demonize, blame and undermine male issues and suffering.

Issues you may have missed:

Circumcision is male genital mutilation. One third of men are cut. Male circumcision is the most prevalent form of MGM, it cut mre skin than the most common form of FGM but it is encouraged by UN under falsified stats.

Men and boys are often the only people who get canned/flogged, killed by school or courts for discipline (eg: Russia, India, Singapore). When UN questionned Singapore about the canning of boys, Singapore said to defend themselve "only boys are canned" to UN. It shows you how men are thought as inferior being in comparison to women.

In most countries men are the only one forced into military and combat. They are forces without being given any privileges in exchange. Because men's life are valued less than women's. Men are are considered as canon fodder since birth.

In time of war, natural disaster, men and boys are let to fend for themselve and women are girls are the only ones given protection, ressources and healthcare. This UN way of working.

Boys are more likely to fail at school, to not go to university, to be undernourished and be prived of liberty.

Women are given privileges when they commit crimes. They are less likely to be punished, and when punished they are given lighter sentences. Their life are also more valued by judges. Killing accidently a women gives you 56% longer sentence than killing a man.

Men make up ~85% of rough sleepers who die.

The empathy gap is real. People value women's lives higher than men's lives. People also like to always point men as bad and women as good.

Women sexualizing and objectifying men and boys is encouraged while the reverse is villified. Feminists are usually the one to push this double standard. The ones who pay the price are usually male sexual workers : strippers and prostitutes. Female teachers rapings schoolboys is seen as harmless while men simply having sexual preference or sexual drives (male gaze) is seen as misoginy. (On a side note groom too since their bride-to-be run wild to the point where it is accaptable to them to hire male slaves for bachelorette parties.)

If you want more sources on male issues:

https://www.reddit.com/user/TheTinMenBlog/posts/

https://menarehuman.com/citations/

https://www.youtube.com/user/drwarrenfarrell

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3DOT_N7Ib0Pwi4m4XbX04A

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCd2epsgcEhiF3LzXAkQlhFQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KwNSTGCZYU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpQDkKF2pyU

Channel #academic of this server : https://discord.gg/mFq4aApUk6

Furthermore, on the topic of toxic masculinity, when presented with the definition of "toxic masculinity", +80 % people consider that the term is harmful to men and boys:

Why do feminists always use it ? How could no feminists see it is harmful ? Because harming men and boys was the goal on this term.

"Women don't complain about rape because toxic femininty".

"Women have body image issues because of toxic femininty".

Do you see how it sounds ? Do you believe it helps women ? Do you believe it doesn't blame or demonize women ? Do feminists use 'toxic femininty" ? No. They talk about "(internalized) misoginy". The goal is simple ; Everything that happens to women is society's fault, therefore men and boys' fault becauce for feminists women have zero power while men have all the power. For the same reasons, everything that happens to men is men's fault.

It is also a way to derail conversation. Instead of addressing why men are more likely to kill themselve (mental health issues, poverty, divorce, children, education, crimes, domestic and sexual violences,etc), which would breaks feminist model ("Patriarchy", "Male Privileges, "Female Oppression") and would make governements invest ressources in men instead of women,they simply say "toxic masculinity". This way they instantly place the blames with men. Male suicide will diseappear if only these stupid men just stopped being toxic and realized they are hurting themselves ! They can even ask for money to set up false mental health services for men to convert them to feminism.

"Toxic Masculinity" allows feminists to hide the real issues. In a situation where by almost every mesasure men's lives are worse than women, do you think that men not talking about their emotions is really contributing to male suicide ? And did anyone thought about why men don't talk about their issues ? This videos and the comments may give you an insight :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3iaVscfR68 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YusmJxdCkqI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtJLYN1fxGw

Feminists just say "men need to talk more". But who will listen ? Is it safe to open up to them ? Do any feminists asked if men talked about their issues and emotions to each others ? You know when all you do is blaming men and demonizing them, no men will open up with them.

Feminism is an enemy of men, as much, if not more, than tradcons. You talked about father's rights, your biggest enemies are feminist orgs like NOW.

rabel111 · 2021-04-26T02:07:15+00:00

Feminism can never be a basis for advocating for men and boys. By definition, and when looking at the evidence published by iconic feminists taught in gender studies courses internationally, feminism is misandry. Don't try peddling garbage like"feminism is for mentoo". That's just ideological abuse.

If you were truely interested at all in the welfare and experiences of men, you would recognise that feminism is only interested in assimilating men and boys, redefining masculinity in gynocentric terms, and enlisting men and boys as subhuman allies.

iainmf · 2021-04-26T09:34:15+00:00

Thanks so much for posting.

The biggest problem is the stigma associated with advocating for men. There are very few people in influential positions who will stand up for men. I have been trying to get our Human Rights Commission to do more for men. Their response looks more like an attempt to placate a difficult person than any serious consideration of men's issues. Even though protecting men's human rights is their job.

I went to see Clementine Ford, an infamous Australian feminist, when she was promoting her book. I immediately notice that she formed her opinions about men without really listening to men. I think this is pretty common among feminists.

So there's a double whammy. There's a stigma around men talking about their experiences and advocating for themselves combined with people not listening to men.

I think how we talk about men is a problem as well.

I have a theory that masculinity, as we understand it, is largely based on understanding women's experiences. It goes back to feminists trying to understand why women were oppressed. Their answer was basically, men are socialized to be oppressors. They called that socialization "masculinity" and then went looking for ways to prove they were right.

So now the way we discuss men's issues is men are socialized wrong and need to be fixed. That's a very negative view of men.

We should be helping men because they are awesome and deserve to be helped, not because they are a problem that needs to be fixed.

Men-Are-Human · 2021-04-26T12:34:48+00:00

I'm very glad to hear you support men too! You won't find many people here who like Feminism, but you seem more like an Egalitarian and we love those.

Honestly, one big thing you can do is to let Feminists know about some of our issues and so on. You don't have to frame them as men's issues even. Homelessness, suicide male victims of rape and domestic violence, drug use, fatherlessness, Parental Alienation, and more are all good points to raise. If they get angry, I suggest saying that you think these things will have a knock on effect on women. Like little girls needing dads too. Unfortunately, the quickest way to get banned on a Feminist sub is to talk about men's problems, so I advise against that. If you have time, we have a citation list on our site that has a lot of our main problems on it. Unfortunately, and I hate that I have to say this because they should be our allies, but a big one is resistance to equal laws by women's groups. The UK, USA India, Pakistan, Israel, and many others would already have a lot of gender neutral laws if not for their activities in afraid.

https://www.menarehuman.com/citations

Nepene · 2021-04-26T13:00:43+00:00

It's great you're here to help, I'll list a few of the common issues men face that you can help with.

A lot of mental health aid is geared more towards women, with a big focus on talk therapy. More active push towards male centered mental health care would help, with less focus on talking about feelings and more focus on tools to help people improve their mindset would help. Often men go to get help, and are turned off by sexism and ineffective help.
More support for men who act within traditional gender male gender norms. There's been a lot of push to support men outside gender norms, and a lot of stigma against men in traditional roles, such as being parents of children. More positive portrayals of men doing normal manly stuff in art and media would help. As you said, there's not many male depictions in media outside of evil men, non traditional men breaking stereotypes, and sex interests.
Equal push against rape and domestic violence against men. I and a lot of men are quite nervous about the severe lack of legal support we get if we are raped or beaten up.
Respect for traditional male protection methods. A lot of men don't expose many emotions or cry in public because they tend to face severe bullying, often from people who told them to do it. Pushing them to expose their emotions or cry more can just lead to worse mental health. Exposing weakness in public is often more dangerous for men than women.
Likewise, respect for men who deal with mental health issues in other ways. Some don't find crying, or talking about their feelings helpful.
Judicial bias is a big worry, and help for legal changes to equalize the law are good.
Pushing against forcible circumcision of baby boys. This is something that is sadly happening a lot, even in corona virus days, with risky hospital visits to rip off male genitals.

EvilLothar · 2021-04-26T01:41:12+00:00

Stop using the term "toxic masculinity". It implies that being masculine is toxic. And feminist are not the friends of MRA's. Feminism is not about equality, it's a supremacist movement. Of course, you are free to call yourself what ever you want.. but if you want proof, just go to any Feminist sub reddit and post about men's issues. See how fast you get banned.

WingsofSky · 2021-04-26T02:47:13+00:00

Balance the wants and needs of "women".

But I don't feel like you are being honest. I kind of feel like you have some serious motives.

Test-writer · 2021-04-26T05:16:13+00:00

I mean, intersectionality is pure cancer, so even if you could use intersectionality to solve some of these issues I'd still not want to live in that world.

lalala477 · 2021-04-26T16:31:41+00:00

Toxic masculinity is really feminists just projecting

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/h8za7e/scientific_study_feminsm_makes_you_more_man/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

There was another study that found that men around other men don’t enforce “gender stereotypes” seriously

https://www.wokefather.com/privilege/study-proves-feminists-support-traditional-male-gender-roles/

FinallyReborn · 2021-04-26T02:01:46+00:00

First off, stop identifying as a feminist. It seems all cheerful to be a "dictionary definition feminist", but by supporting the movement you are directly supporting the institutionalized feminists who advocate against men, and have created many male inequalities such as the Duluth Model and VAWA which both systemically discriminate against male victims of DV. Same with the current rape definitions which exclude male victims, that were pushed into legislature by prominent feminists and feminist institutions like the majority feminist foundation.

I recommend watching Red Pill by Cassie Jaye as a good introduction to the MRM, or you can just watch the raw file footage on her YouTube channel. Other than that you can watch Karen Straughn or Paul Elam, read books by MRA authors such as Warren Farrell, or Ernest Belford Bax. And if you need any specific examples on male inequalities I would be happy to supply.

fessus_intellectiva · 2021-04-26T00:57:30+00:00

In a general sense just stick up for men. When you hear people putting men down just because of their gender then call them out on there bs. Beyond that you could try to educate yourself more on some of the relevant statistics and information. The Red Pill movie is a good place to start.

AnAngryOrange · 2021-04-26T19:07:16+00:00

Sorry if this comes across as a bit rash, but the idea of feminism itself is misandrist. For starters, feminists will go posting "men are trash" on twitter, get tons of likes, then when you bring that up to other feminists they'll say that those feminists aren't true feminists, claim that feminism stands for everyone's rights, but then completely ignore your valid challenges to that sentiment, and repeat again the feminism stands for equality without even making an effort to argue against what you are saying. They'll say that feminism is for men's rights, yet actively call us MRAs sexist pigs. As if there can only be one movement at a time which certainly isn't the case as that would remove the need for a women's rights movement. They preach the narrative that women are victims and men are oppressors, which works hand and hand with the already bad stigma around men.

They get on your back for simply saying you don't desire to hinder yourself by staying at campus five minutes later or crossing the road at night because a woman is walking in front of you and of course, you should cater to her fear that you want to rape or murder her despite the fact that men are way more likely to suffer a physical assault in public, and are roughly 3x as likely to be murdered globally. They believe that female only services are fair because "men have an easier time finding jobs." Like heck, the entire movement revolves around an eye for an eye. Society already wants men to bend over backwards to please women, but feminists just want us to break our backs now. The sexism is even in the name "feminism"

Perhaps you could try to avoid being one of these feminists. The type who follow this idea that men are the bad guys and straight white men are the ultimate oppressors. The type that fight to prevent it being possible for women to rape women. The type who refuse to acknowledge female privileges and men's lack of rights. Or just brand yourself an "egalitarian" instead, since feminism is such a cesspool that even if we ignored the namesake, it is way to far gone to recover what people seem to believe it is. With that being said,

APB3 · 2021-04-26T03:45:10+00:00

Coming of age films, huh? Okay, try A Bronx Tale. A boy raised into a man entirely through the efforts of the men in his life. Every man who has ever seen this movie loved it. You’ll see...

p0rnpop · 2021-04-26T13:02:30+00:00

Why do you support BIPOC but not POC? I've seen a few people suggest it is a different name but means the same but I've also seen many say that BIPOC excludes some groups who fall under POC. Groups who have been stereotyped as too white.

Also, you might want to look how much transphobia stems from misandry. There is a reason that some people are always scared of a trans woman in the womens restroom but don't have any concerns about a trans man in the mens restroom.

23049823409283409 · 2021-04-26T14:59:28+00:00

Logically, you can group the issues of both men and women into the following categories:

- Fairness of the written law

- Fairness of the applied law

- Societal fairness

- Fairness of the money spent by the government

- Fairness of the media/entertrainment industries portrayal of a certain sex

- Fairness in education

There are probably more categories, but the list is good enough for a post here.

Now, I don't specifically advocate for equality, I advocate for fairness. Equality is just a special case of fairness, and I'm totally fine with implementing equality.

However, the most fundamental equality is the equality in the written and applied law.

But in (almost?) all western countries, women do have clear legal advantages both in the written and the applied law.

Often, people argue that this is needed to compensate for other inequalities, and I think this is a cheap excuse.

In my country, womens retirement age is lower than mens. The reason this is the case is, because in the past, women were usually younger then men when they married, so for both sexes to statistically retire at the same time, women just got gifted a few years more retirement.

Military is another obvious example, where men are legally forced to partake in military service (or pay a compensation fine) and women get a free pass. Often people respons with "then we should abolish the army, or make it voluntary". Imho, that's cherrypicking. IF you support equality AND you are against mandatory military service, you should support military service for women if there is the abolishment of the mandatory military service is not going to happen. You can then still advocate for abolishment of the military service.

And that's only a tiny bit of the inequality in the written law.

The next thing is the application of the law.

As far as I know, and correct me if I am wrong, men get harder sentences for the same crimes.

For example female pedophiles regularly get a slap on the wrist, because "the 13 year old boy should be glad that he had sex with a hot teacher" or something along the lines.

Funny enough, both men and women judge women more lightly according to studies I've read (but again, I could be wrong), so as long as there is a human factor, the disadvantage of men in the application of the law will never fully vanish.

That's why, I would love to have a judicial system that basically determines the sentence for a certain crime statically and only let judges decise in previously unknown edge cases.

I skip societal fairness, because that's way to complicated of a topic, I think you could write books about it. But also societal fairness is basically made by society, which means it's democratic, it changes if we change, and forced changes will never work, only ever backfire.

So let's get to an easier topic, tax money spent on a certain sex.

I don't want perfect 50/50 split here, because men and women are biologically different, which must be reflected in the money spent for health care.

But when men pay twice the amount of taxes in their lifetimes (that's a guess, I don't know the exact number, but it's afaik a big difference), but get half the amount of money, because they both work longer and die earlier, it's kind of unfair to a level nobody who seeks equality can support.

There's many things like that, and one important example is that governments support academic feminism, which is not scientific but a lobbying group for feminist interests. There's nothing generally wrong with grassroot lobbying for your own interests, but it's criminally corrupt when you get tax dollars for it.

And then there is the media/entertainment industries portrayal of men and women.

Let's for example look at the female ghost busters movie. The assistent is not only a man, but he's absolutely stupid. Is that how feminists perceived the female secretary in ghost busters? I don't think so, because she was smart and strong.

Truth is, men get portrayed as stupid idiots that can't do anything right until women do it for them very often. This is NEVER EVER the case for women.

But I also dislike the portrayal of women in the media. For policital reasons they are sometimes portrayed as so extremely great, that the plot makes no sense anymore, because everybody else becomes just useless and insignificant. They become totally characterless. You can't even enjoy movies anymore like this. This was the case in star wars. The consequence of this is not even in favour of women, because the viewers, both men and women, get annoyed and start to be sceptical of moview with female leads.

Also there was never a reason for it. We had great female leads for decades and everbody liked it. Take Kill Bill, Alien, Mulan, Star Gate and many others as examples. They were not woke, they were just women with character who filled their role to make their movies/series better.

And that was only about the entertainment industry, the media isn't exactly neutral too.

Ant the education is another hot topic.

For decades we were trying to encourage women, because they were less educated for historical reasons that they didn't cause.

And now, men are less educated. What are we doing as a reaction? Still encouraging women and downplaying the issues of men... how that makes any sense to anyone escapes me.

And we know for decades how you could easily improve mens performance. Competition, Cooperation, Gamification and more physical movement in between.

So why don't we do it? I don't know. It wouldn't even cost much.

lalala477 · 2021-04-26T16:24:06+00:00

Myth #5: "Men had the vote and women did not. Women's suffrage was a matter of women as a united group fighting for their rights against the evil men that kept it from them. Suffragettes were champions of equality who got women the vote. Etc, etc."*

Really, I'm very tired of hearing this one.

In Britain, the right to vote was not only restricted by gender, but also by class. Property owners had the vote, the vast majority of men did not. In 1830, just 3% of the population had the right to vote.

During this time, there were a few groups who were fighting for the vote to be extended to them, and one of these groups were the Chartists, who were active from 1830 to 1868. They were fighting for broad electoral reforms including:

a vote for all men (over 21)
the secret ballot
no property qualification to become an MP
payment for MPs
electoral districts of equal size
annual elections for Parliament.

They presented three huge demonstrations to Parliament, and their requests were denied every time. The restrictions were relaxed but not abolished. Benjamin Disraeli said when introducing the Second Reform Act of 1867: "We do not live – and I trust it will never be the fate of this country to live – under a democracy. The propositions which I am going to make tonight certainly have no tendency in that direction."

There were also the suffragists and the suffragettes, who were fighting for the vote to be extended to women. Suffragists emerged in the mid-19th century and believed in peaceful, constitutional campaign methods. In the early 20th century, after the suffragists failed to make significant progress, a new generation of activists emerged. These women became known as the suffragettes, and they were willing to take direct, militant action for the cause.

However, a huge amount of women disagreed with women's suffrage. So many women objected to the franchise being imposed on them that in the mere 18 months leading up to a 1910 parliamentary debate on women's suffrage, anti-suffragettes had managed to collect 300,000 signatures from women who objected to the franchise being imposed on them. Meanwhile, in the 16 years leading up to that debate, suffragettes only managed to collect 193,000 signatures of women who wanted the vote.

A segment from the transcript of the debate:

"Still, for what it is worth, one finds that from 1890–1906 only 193,000 women signed Petitions to this House in favour of female suffrage, and that during the last eighteen months, a period in which a strong anti-suffrage association has been in existence, 300,000 women, some of them eminent women, have signed petitions against it, and to the effect that these proposals shall not be forced upon them."

And...

"A rather interesting illustration was furnished by an inquiry which was instituted by "The Sheffield Independent," a newspaper which I think itself is sympathetic with these proposals. This inquiry was addressed to the women householders of Sheffield. Twenty-three thousand papers were sent out, and of the replies 9,000 were in favour of woman suffrage and 14,000 were against it. The representatives of this paper reported that in many cases their emissaries were chased with violence from the houses by the female inhabitants under the impression that they were collecting statistical matter as the emissaries of the suffragist party."

It may be difficult to understand why so many women would reject the vote so vehemently, but this was an era where full citizenship rights like the right to vote were granted only to those with citizenship responsibilities like conscription (and sometimes not even then). In that historical context, the vote was actually viewed not just as a right, but also an obligation. So it was never really about men in power shutting women out of the franchise. It was about government having to decide whether to impose a responsibility on women that women as a whole clearly did not want.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1910/jul/11/parliamentary-franchise-women-bill

Regardless of the lack of support for women's suffrage among women, suffragettes became extremely militant in their activism. In 1903 Emmeline Pankhurst founded the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU) with her daughters Christabel and Sylvia, and the WSPU carried out a nationwide bombing and arson campaign. Between 1912 and 1915, hundreds of bombs were left on trains, in theatres, post offices, churches, even outside the Bank of England; while arson attacks on timber yards, railway stations and private houses inflicted an untold amount of damage.

https://www.historytoday.com/history-matters/sanitising-suffragettes

Instead of being beneficial in supporting the vote for women, it was disastrous. Lloyd George said: "The action of the militants is ruinous. The feeling amongst the sympathisers of the cause in the House is one of panic. I am frankly not very hopeful of success if these tactics are persisted in."

Terrorism aside, Emmeline Pankhurst was also resistant to acquiring the vote for working class men, realising that this would be much tougher than winning the vote for "respectable" AKA upper-class women, and underlying the resistance appears to have been her contempt for working-class men. According to Sean Lang in his book on Parliamentary reform: "The Pankhursts became stridently anti-male, ruthlessly dropping even the most loyal of their male supporters from the WSPU, and claiming, as Christabel did in her 1913 book The Great Scourge, that men were “little more than carriers of venereal disease”."

https://conservativewoman.co.uk/men-won-votes-women-not-suffragettes/

lalala477 · 2021-04-26T16:34:16+00:00

Feminism has actively worked against parental rights, it was elizabeth cady stanton and her squad that advocated for the “Tender years Doctrine”

Bojack35 · 2021-04-26T03:40:37+00:00

I think when you say you 'advocate for people across the board' that is a noble sentiment but it is easy to fall into the trap of 'speaking for people across the board.'

It is great to be an 'ally' but harmful to tell people what their issues are or how they should be framed.

I don't think it is helpful to talk about male issues as being the consequence of patriachy and painting men as oppressors. It's not only inaccurate but feels a lot like victim blaming/ gaslighting. Equally it's incredibly patronising to tell women they are oppressed.

Be neutral and honest in your language.

There is this weird double speak inherent in feminism that a woman acting in a harmful stereotypical gender role is 'internalised misogyny' yet a man doing it is 'toxic masculinity.' A woman criticising men is 'punching up' but a man criticising women is 'oppressing them.' If we spoke about toxic femininity and internalised misandry it wouldn't be a good approach to womans issues so please dont do it the other way around.

I think most of the major issues men face stem from a lack of male role models in childhood. When people talk about how to get men to commit less crime the focus always seems to be on the fact they are men being the inherent issue - it is masculinity itself which is seen as the problem. Instead we need to look at the experiences of men which influence criminality. In general it is those who are more rejected by society who commit more crime - this is true of every demographic but seems to get brushed over when it comes to men. Men raised in single mother households are far far more likely to commit crime. Promoting equal custody laws' more male primary teachers and youth workers' basically increasing good models of masculinity is far more effective in helping young men and in turn benefiting society than demonising masculinity ever will be. Anything like 'teach boys not to rape' or 'yes all men' should be viewed as it is - a rhetoric which damages young boys by teaching that society does not value them but sees them as a danger' which will increase not reduce crime.

When you talk about coming of age films this touches on role models. There has been a lot of progress in diversifying female role models but the male ones are still all basically strong/good at fighting/rich. It creates similar pressures to when female ones all used to be good looking and sit around waiting to be rescued.

Atilla942 · 2021-04-26T19:41:28+00:00

Crisis of education system failing boys and unemployment among men is another major issue that hardly anyone talks about.

Appropriate_Deer5129 · 2021-04-26T00:04:33+00:00

Did you look through this sub before asking this question?

All your questions can be answered by taking the time to scroll through it.

lalala477 · 2021-04-26T16:22:05+00:00

I would also recommend reading this in order to understand what goes on in gender studies departments in universities: https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/hzem1c/the_little_pink_book_the_10_commandments_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

lalala477 · 2021-04-26T16:25:28+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/lbym24/some_common_gender_myths_and_their_rebuttals/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

lalala477 · 2021-04-26T16:29:06+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/emof61/feminist_academic_fraud_and_abuse/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

lalala477 · 2021-04-26T16:33:32+00:00

https://www.wokefather.com/sexism/what-is-gaslighting-and-how-feminists-use-it/

lalala477 · 2021-04-26T16:42:08+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/9kz774/solidarity_feminism_pranksters_rewrote_mein_kampf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

lalala477 · 2021-04-26T16:58:03+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/gqdcdj/women_rape_men_almost_as_often_as_men_rape_women/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

lalala477 · 2021-04-26T16:20:33+00:00

Hello, welcome to our group and thank your for posting. I’m going to preface this by saying that the following may sound very shrill but it would be worth your time to read this: Karen Straughan's response to "those aren't real feminists"

The following is a very informed and highly reusable comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

RockmanXX · 2021-04-26T13:39:58+00:00

I’m a feminist, what more can I do?

You can stop being one OR stay AWAY from Men's rights and let Men talk about their issues. We have issues, let us speak.

Another thing I’ve noticed is the severe lack of coming-of-age films with accurate male depictions

What? Traditional Masculinity is all about a young man/boy coming of age and becoming responsible. The archetype of the hero's journey is literally just a coming of age story arc for boys. You haven't got a clue about what Masculinity even is. How can you even say it's toxic?

This is what truly infuriates me, you feminists have absolutely zero insight on the world of men and masculinity and yet you feel like you have the authority to throw around words like "Toxic Masculinity". You're feminists, stick with femininity and women.

Is it the toxic masculinity that exists within society

There is no such thing as Toxic Masculinity, there is only TOXIC Gender Roles for Men and Toxic Feminism that hurt men.

Logical-Cherry3502 · 2021-04-26T00:07:06+00:00

Wow that mean you not want to kill us wow you think we should have equal rights wow a good feminist I think I well never say that

Skitsnacks · 2021-04-26T04:10:59+00:00

I call myself a feminist too but many don’t care for my views. You know, the ones where I advocate for men and boys too. I’m a guy myself.

I see someone recommended The Red Pill to you. That movie’s ok. Cassie Jay isn’t exactly an intellectual. Being on this sub is a mixed bag because some men in here are too emotionally invested to be objective snd some people are just downright sexist. Take it with a grain of salt.

I used to like to spend a little time on here and r/feminism but the r/feminism mods are just cunts who want a well-maintained echo chamber. I like to look at r/twoxchromosomes but I’m not as open as I’d like to be about some of the dumb nonsense some people post where they seem to think only women have problems (which is not a very feminist thing to do).

I’d encourage other MRAs to call themselves feminists and call out any person who isn’t interested in true equality. Tell them they’re not actually a feminist. Change from within

ObviousObservationz · 2021-04-26T00:00:06+00:00

I think the biggest thing that needs to start happening in society is the acknowledgement that men have issues and the encouragement to deal with them rather than repress them.

The 'tough guy' trope needs to be eradicated as soon as possible because this leads to mental illness, depression, suicide, and lifelong problems.

I think the best thing that individuals can do is just call things out when you see them. Shaming someone for mental illness or attacking someone's masculinity is something that is still way too common in western society and it often pushes people to repress their issues rather than addressing them.

Men being judged by their job or wealth can be just as harmful as women being judged for her looks alone. Pressure can be tough to deal with and feeling as though you are falling short is emotionally very difficult.

Society doesn't change quickly. But at an individual level, enough people calling out bad behaviour and applauding positive behaviour will eventually tip the scales.

Oh, and while many people here don't react well to someone saying they are a feminist, I think its important to understand perspective and trying to achieve that understanding is a tremendous step forward. One that should be appreciated.

hendrixski · 2021-04-26T04:11:07+00:00

I’m an intersectional feminist, meaning I advocate for people across the board, whether it be trans-women, immigrants, WOC, BIPOC or men.

I genuinely admire intersectional feminism. I think intersectionality explains a lot of men's issues too. Conversely, I think radfems are deplorable, ignorant of racial issues, are often anti-trans, anti-sex-workers, and obviously anti-men. A lot of the anti-feminist sentiment you see here in this sub is against radfems and not by people who know what intersectionality really is.

I’ve been advocating for parental rights, male suicide prevention, equal opportunities for trans men

Trans men are men. Full stop. Trans men's issues are our issues regardless of how they were born or how effectively they present.

Also, thank you for any advocacy work you may do on equal parenting rights. 50/50 custody is the least detrimental outcome of divorce for children. As of last month there is now ONE state (and only one, Arkansas) that requires judges to set 50/50 custody unless there is evidence (not just accusations, evidence) that meets a judicial standard of proof. Only 1! And it only just happened recently. Equality is possible.

Our biased custody system isfailing our children, so any support you give to the issue of equal custody is very very welcome. Thanks again.

Is it the toxic masculinity that exists within society or is it the judicial system?

We are not fans of the phrase "toxic masculinity" even if we relate to the concept because for most people it doesn't mean "toxic expectations of masculinity forced on us by society". No, for most of the world it means "all men are toxic". Personally I propose the term "internalized anti-male bias" because it better conveys the toxic way that societies negative views about men alter our definitions of ourselves and cause us mental harm. 'Internalized anti-male bias".

But yes there are MANY issues. Male only draft, rape jokes about men are considered funny (especially about men in jail), lack of male-only abuse shelters, lack of reproductive rights (such as denial of access to surrogates for gay couples), failure to label adult women as "rapists" when they sleep with underage boys, etc.

Actually that last one is a bigger issue: boys are not given the option to consent. "Internalized anti-male bias" says that men are always looking for sex so therefore men can't "not consent". It's no wonder we have a hard time teaching boys about consent if we don't let them have consent.

The list goes on and on but I'll add an odd point. Circumcision is (and always has been) about outdated standards of purity and modesty. It's a way of trying to control the sexuality of children. It's illegal to circumcise women and it should be illegal to do to boys, too.

I’ve noticed is the severe lack of coming-of-age films with accurate male depictions,

Bingo!

But wait. There's more. I was a single father (before I remarried... To a single mom of color, I might add). There are hundreds of movies empowering single moms. There is one movie I found that empowered me: pursuit of happiness with Will Smith. If you know any others then send a message to my post self via time machine, because I felt very alone. Most movies portray dads as messy absent minded idiots. I'm not homer simpson.

Also, None of the men in movies look like me. I'm a runner so I'm very thin. Men in movies set unrealistic body standards. I'm very fit as a runner but back when I was dating I was told that I don't have strong arms so I wasn't what an ex was looking for in a fit man. Sorry I don't look like Chris Hemsworth with massive biceps. For years I had internalized that anti male bias and thought my arms were deficienct until I finally came to accept my body as it is.

HadrianHoppe · 2021-04-27T09:59:03+00:00

May I ask which country you're from? The biggest men's rights issue that I know of is male genital mutilation(MGM). It's especially a problem in the usa, canada, the Philippines, south Korea, many countries in africa, and of course israel and any muslim country. And yes I'm talking about circumcision. If you've never looked into how bloody and damaging it is to men and male sexuality, you should. The social reasons for why it's forced on male children are extremely similar to fgm. MGM is far more of a systemic problem than any other issue I know of.

wiserTyou · 2021-05-01T21:41:52+00:00

Yeah, so if you advocate for everyone that's called an egalitarian. Redefining terms is a tactic used by many groups to win arguments without discussion or introspection. A feminist is a feminist. You cannot be both a feminist and an egalitarian.

Title	I’m a feminist, what more can I do?
Author	jadoregeorgia
Upvotes	21
Comments	117
Date	April 25, 2021 11:31 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/mykhiz/im_a_feminist_what_more_can_i_do/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/im-a-feminist-what-more-can-i-do.829952 https://theredarchive.com/post/829952

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