So apparently talking about men's problems is controversial

just_b_grace · 2019-06-24T15:52:50+00:00

It’s controversial because it’s somehow “sexist”, unfortunately. 😔

Chill-BL · 2019-06-24T16:15:07+00:00

Because it will detract from the established agenda.

UncontainedOne · 2019-06-24T17:06:41+00:00

You could always turn this back on them by, in your speech, pointing out that the very fact this is viewed as "controversial" could be taken as a sign that education in Britain is biased against boys. To be clear, I would be neutral, academic and respectful in the way you said this. But it's a point worth making.

Some supporting evidence for you:

Female Teachers Give Male Pupils Lower Marks, Claims Study

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/02/16/female-teachers-give-male_n_1281236.html

Teachers 'give higher marks to girls'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31751672

New UGA research helps explain why girls do better in school

https://news.uga.edu/why-girls-do-better-in-school-010212/

Same behavior problems hinder boys more than girls

http://www.seattletimes.com/education-lab/same-behavior-problems-hinder-boys-more-than-girls/

The Boy Crisis: Experimental Evidence on the Acceptance of Males Falling Behind

https://openaccess.nhh.no/nhh-xmlui/bitstream/handle/11250/2589254/DP%2006.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Acceptance For Boys Dropping Out

https://web.archive.org/web/20180913103956/https://www.nhh.no/en/nhh-bulletin/article-archive/older-articles/2016/september/greater-acceptance-for-men-dropping-out/

A Helping Hand For Girls? Gender Bias In Marks And Its Effect On Student Progress

https://www.ipp.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/n14-notesIPP-december2014.pdf

Students’ Perceptions of Teacher Biases:Experimental Economics in Schools

https://flora.insead.edu/fichiersti_wp/inseadwp2013/2013-66.pdf

Non-cognitive Skills and the Gender Disparities in Test Scores and Teacher Assessments:Evidence from Primary School

https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/education_seminar_series/Mustard.pdf

Do gender stereotypes reduce girls' or boys' human capital outcomes?Evidence from a natural experiment

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/vlavy/lavy_j.public.e_10.2008_gender_steriotypes.pdf

What’s new? OECD Report: Gender Equality in Education

https://internationalednews.com/2015/03/05/whats-new-oecd-report-gender-equality-in-education/

Early gender gaps drive career choices and employment opportunities, says OECD

http://www.oecd.org/newsroom/early-gender-gaps-drive-career-choices-and-employment-opportunities.htm

The influence of gender stereotype threat on mathematics test scores of Dutch high school students: a registered report

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23743603.2018.1559647

Why Men Are Falling Behind in Schools

https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2019/01/03/why-men-are-falling-behind-in-schools/

Focus on traumatized boys critical to gender equality, research shows

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/boys-trauma-research-1.5142602

A couple of these articles are just summaries. But most report or point to a specific piece of research. A very rough summary of the findings of this research is:

"Teachers in developed countries routinely mark boys down compared to girls for the same standard of work. Studies show boys know this is happening and adjust their effort and investment in education because of it. A common explanation of why teachers do this, is that they are subconsciously marking boys down because boys' behaviour is more challenging than girls'. Even if that is the reason, then it's very unfair and unprofessional: schools should deal with academic marking and behaviour separately. But it's even more unfair, when you take into account that research shows that teachers punish boys more harshly than girls for the same standard of misbehaviour. They are also more likely to label boys as "troublemakers" or "class clowns", something that impacts not only how the boy perceives himself but also how other pupils perceive the boy. Teachers do not treat girls in the same way. So boys are in a double bind. They're are unfairly marked down because of their behaviour, behaviour that is judged according to a less forgiving standard than that used with girls. The Norwegian research found that the people most likely to protect girls against the consequences of low performance, and presumably also poor behaviour, were women who felt strongly that gender quotas should be used to help girls and women. Feminists. And given that most teachers are women, over 70% I believe, this is highly relevant to the plight of boys in our schools today."

But I cannot stress how important it is to present this respectfully and to make the effort to read the sources, so you can back up these claims if challenged. They may try to say that these studies are not from the UK, or not all from the UK. This is true. But the LSE and OECD ones do include research on UK schools. And in any case, boys are underachieving in all Western nations. Looking at these results from other countries with similar problems, we should want to carry out research to see if the same things are happening here. That we are not doing this, is more evidence of bias.

Finally, there's this:

Scientific Bias in Favor of Studies Finding Gender Bias

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/rabble-rouser/201906/scientific-bias-in-favor-studies-finding-gender-bias

The paper looks at higher education, not schools. But what it finds is highly significant for the debate around boys in education. It finds that any academic study which finds evidence of bias in higher education against women is widely reported in the general press and cited by other researchers. But any study which finds bias against men in higher education, sinks like a stone and is neither reported not cited to anywhere near the same extent. So, there is a bias against reporting on or considering possible bias against men in academia.

If the same bias exists in relation to schools, then we'd expect your teachers either not to have heard of any or many of the studies above. We'd also expect them not to have been involved in sex-specific efforts, based on these studies, to address boys' underperformance at schools. So, if they have not heard of all this and are not doing something about it, they prove your thesis that boys are being underserved in education. Or at least, they make it more plausible and more worthy of education.

So, again, the very fact that your teachers think your choice of topic is "controversial", shows that it is a topic which urgently needs to be addressed.

I cannot stress enough the importance of being respectful when you present this stuff. Don't want to get marked down!

Lethn · 2019-06-24T16:13:36+00:00

Depending on how much noise you want to make I'd quite happily tell them to fuck off in that situation, but I'm not the one who could end up suspended or expelled over that. I highly recommend potentially recording interactions with teachers if they try and threaten you for example or get really pushy about you doing this.

The reason being is if you end up getting suspended or expelled over some bullshit and the teachers are all against you, you could use this as evidence against the school. That's just me though, I'm very paranoid about people like that, I would not be surprised if they might try something.

You could maybe get them to demonstrate 'why' it's so controversial if they're that bothered about it then show them up in class which would be funny but it's entirely up to you and how strongly you feel about all of this.

Kalb157 · 2019-06-24T17:42:08+00:00

That sounds like exactly why you need to make that speech

Mefic_vest · 2019-06-24T17:14:34+00:00

Because it violates the narrative that only women’s problems matter.

If you go ahead with this, you will be punished for wrongthink; mark my words.

ninja_deli · 2019-06-24T17:06:27+00:00

It's controversial because men are "privileged" and don't have any problems /s

mtcapri · 2019-06-24T17:48:31+00:00

Controversial just means there’s widespread disagreement about them in society. And it’s true that men’s issues are controversial, because society still doesn’t want to accept that they even exist. The point to make is that the controversy is due to society being misandrist, not the issues being invalid.

vxd386 · 2019-06-24T16:27:40+00:00

Because men are generally seen as less valuable and dispensable.

No one can change anything about that, it's natural. It's in our genes.

RoryTate · 2019-06-24T17:52:35+00:00

Raising awareness about men's problems will always cause some pushback, but there are things you can do to minimize or even prevent this. Select certain issues and the ways to present them carefully, and try to get constructive and representative feedback on whether anything you say might be taken as an attack. One men's issue I think that is both important and "palatable" to present is father's rights. Find a powerful story to relate about a heartbroken dad who hasn't seen his children in years, and that will get a lot of emotional investment from a general audience. You can then use this hook as a platform from which to talk about the studies which correlate fatherlessness in homes with increased drug use, prison time, etc, in the children raised in those environments. This can lead into discussing divorce laws which turn men into nothing more than walking ATMs, the lack of parental leave specifically for fathers (even where such leave exists, it is too often the case that time a father spends with a newborn is taken away from their partner's maternal leave...I have heard co-workers say they hope they can get at least a week of leave if their wives will give up a bit of their full time off), etc.

I'm not sure what level of school this is for, but you could add some small humour to this topic of father's issues by saying: "Of course, considering current trends where fewer and fewer men are starting families, and are doing so much, much later in life, the majority of us here right now may not have to worry about this at all, or at least until several decades from now." Just smile like it's a self-deprecating joke, don't expect or aim for laughter, and let people just quietly form the association themselves that men are choosing to not have kids because they see the lack of father's rights in the current systems.

At each point of your speech just know that you will need to suggest to people that recognizing or solving these problems is in their own self-interest. This barrier you face is real, and it exists because solving men's issues is ultimately not possible without taking some resources away from other problems in society (there are limited resources to be had everywhere, whether it is access to medical resources or financial assistance for divorced fathers out of work and owing child support or just the emotional labour to care about everyone equally). Every person knows this from the time they are a teenager, whether they consciously accept it or not, and so they react negatively by instinct and justify this resistance logically by saying the topic is "controversial".

So you are 100% correct in your questioning of the reaction from all your teachers: caring about men is not controversial. However, deciding how to fairly distribute limited resources so that men are cared for alongside everyone else equally...yes, that will always be controversial. That is the shorthand their brains are doing, likely without them even realizing it.

ConfusionConcussion · 2019-06-24T16:55:33+00:00

Don't let em neuter you.

Leben_ · 2019-06-24T18:07:47+00:00

They live in a world where they have to make themselves a victim and reap the benefits of it whilst shouting how it's about equality. But there are so many men's issues. Unfortunately soon as you talk about them you're ridiculed, called an incel or a misogynist.

ummidksomething · 2019-06-24T17:17:29+00:00

Okay so it's controversial. What bugs me is that aren't we supposed to talk about controversial topic? It doesn't makes us smart talking about black and white matters which we all practically have THE SAME obvious opinions on.

LionVenom10 · 2019-06-24T20:32:30+00:00

Because you’re in the UK, a country that’s beyond gynocentric, it’s full on sexist against men.

LedZeppelin1602 · 2019-06-24T19:17:17+00:00

Because the feminist theory that women are the oppressed and men are the oppressors is endemic in our society. So the idea of helping men is seen as helping the oppressors, and thus as being anti-woman

funkydunk- · 2019-06-24T20:11:15+00:00

Paste it here bro we’ll read it. Fuck em.

ShutupPussy · 2019-06-24T21:07:33+00:00

Did you ask, why?

rabel111 · 2019-06-24T21:19:39+00:00

You could make the fact that you were warned off this subject, part of your speech, but you may suffer backlash from your teachers.

Be brave, remain evidenced based in your beliefs, but be careful.

Rockbottom503 · 2019-06-24T19:40:47+00:00

It's controversial because the system has far to much feminist influence. Most of your teachers will never have actually worked outside teaching so all they'll have known will be the education system, which is so far left it may as well just stick Che Guevara photos on all its exercise books.

AftB0bbybob22 · 2019-06-24T19:41:04+00:00

What problems are you specifically referring to?

wwstewart · 2019-06-24T19:54:38+00:00

"Of course it's controversial. That's why we should discuss this."

XeroRex9000 · 2019-06-24T20:26:48+00:00

Always. It contradicts the feminist assertion that "all men are conspiring to take advantage of women," (even though "facts" seem to get away with doing just that on a daily basis.)

CounterfeitMemes · 2019-06-24T21:07:20+00:00

No kidding. I just got hounded on r/soccer for my problematic "post history" which I can only conclude is because I defend free speech and right to bodily autonomy on this subreddit. Fucking clowns.

ShawshankRetention · 2019-06-24T21:28:29+00:00

Some year ago, the question of the slavery was also controversial.

If they say its controversial withouth stating that you are wrong, they are saying how important your work is.

You should thanks them.

PsychoPhilosopher · 2019-06-24T21:42:33+00:00

The reason that it's controversial is because they don't know what you're going to say.

Someone says they're going to talk about feminism, everyone knows more or less what they're going to say, and how they're supposed to react. They can listen to the opening statement and then snooze.

On the other hand, you could be about to talk about "How feminism ruined everything and women should go back to the kitchen" or "Why incels are the real heroes".

They don't know how to respond to that, which makes them uncomfortable.

People are pretty much always uncomfortable in the face of new ideas or challenges to their beliefs.

Personally, I always start any conversation on the topic of men's rights by talking about "the successes of gender equality", and use that to pivot to "Men's roles are also changing" to "Men's roles actually aren't changing, they're just very hard or impossible to fulfill in a feminist society" to "Some areas where feminism has failed both men and women" before finally moving to "Where men's rights have legitimately fallen behind and what we can do about it".

The key is to make everything you want to say fit logically within their frame of reference, and give them plenty of clues as to how to react.

You are talking to an audience that holds certain beliefs about their world. Challenge only the smallest of those beliefs at any given time. Be surgical in your approach, at least to begin with. Validate and endorse the positive aspects and areas of agreement. Things like "gender equality" are useful phrases because everybody agrees with the idea of gender equality, even if you're not such a fan of modern feminism.

peepeeandpoopooman · 2019-06-24T22:33:07+00:00

It's controversial because feminism (which tells us men=oppressors and women=oppressed victims) has such a strong grip on society that everyone is now expected to go along with it. Which means any discussion of things that affect boys/men is now controversial.

quarthomon · 2019-06-24T23:21:04+00:00

Women want to monopolize the "victim" space. Even acknowledging that men need compassion is robbing women of attention.

johnslegers · 2019-06-24T23:39:11+00:00

Because men are evil and only women matter, in the eyes of the establishment.

202700000000 · 2019-06-24T23:43:15+00:00

Because your teachers are a bunch of raging feminazis.

tapperyaus · 2019-06-24T23:46:08+00:00

I did the exact same thing a few years ago, a speech about men's issues. Had the teacher try to talk me down, she didn't even believe men could be worse off than women.

Make sure you don't compare men to women, rather have your argument stand on its own.

TruthGetsBanned · 2019-06-24T23:56:45+00:00

Not just controversial, but forbidden....TABOO.

1LegendaryWombat · 2019-06-25T00:09:00+00:00

Because they are perceived as to just not exist and women's issues are more important.

If thats the environment you got, try to stick to things people can't argue against, like circumcision.

GreyTortoise · 2019-06-25T05:18:12+00:00

It's actually very good that they say "controversial" instead of something inherently negative and demeaning.

Be controversial. Everything was controversial before it was deemed progressive.

Title	So apparently talking about men's problems is controversial
Author	AftB0bbybob22
Upvotes	493
Comments	56
Date	June 24, 2019 3:51 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/c4q82i/so_apparently_talking_about_mens_problems_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/so-apparently-talking-about-mens-problems-is.874843 https://theredarchive.com/post/874843

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