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Woman's boss won't have a closed-door one-on-one meeting with her. This is somehow Mike Pence's fault, not "me too" run amok.

doklaan

July 17, 2018
72 upvotes
/r/MensRights

https://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/8ync63/the_mike_pence_rule/

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Title Woman's boss won't have a closed-door one-on-one meeting with her. This is somehow Mike Pence's fault, not "me too" run amok.
Author

doklaan

Upvotes 72
Comments 29
Date July 17, 2018 4:59 AM UTC
(8 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8ziacl/womans_boss_wont_have_a_closeddoor_oneonone/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/womans-boss-wont-have-a-closed-door-one-on-one.897815
https://theredarchive.com/post/897815
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Comments

[–][deleted] 45 points46 points47 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Ya...not feeling a "Pence" vibe here. It's a natural consequence of all the #metoo misfires.

Really, what did everyone expect to happen? Men just willingly expose themselves to any random, unsubstantiated yet life destroying accusation? This is one of the natural outcomes of sexual assault paranoia.

It's a shame too, because I do believe that there are those with authority who have abused it and absolutely should be brought to task for it. Yet, as it always does, the real crimes get lost in the noise to where no one is sure; the real problems end up mixed in with the innocent.

[+]Lumberjackie_Chan1 points 8 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I've been hearing the "no closed-door/one-on-one meetings with members of the opposite sex" thing in workplace training sessions from the first time I had to sit through one.

It's fairly odd that people are pretending Pence came up with the idea or that it's a product of the recent campaigns.

[–]ToddlerKnifeFight 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's fairly odd that people are pretending Pence came up with the idea or that it's a product of the recent campaigns.

You're assuming that the people who are getting offended are people who have held (or who are capable of maintaining) gainful employment.

Working for a living leaves very little time for being outraged on social media.

[–]Lethn 17 points18 points19 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Mike Pence just happens to be a Republican and a religious man who saw this all coming long before it happened, say what you will about the guy, he had some foresight. Or perhaps he just has that much experience as a politician he knows better than to be alone in the room with a woman he doesn't know, saw the feminist movement and what it believed and decided to take precautions.

Hell, Trump even openly said that he and his team now make full recordings of their meetings because of how much the media lies about them.

[–]armaadi 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It isn't just with him. My wife had a mentoring program at her old job, and even back in 2009, she talked with an executive VP about this. He won't risk a sexual assault claim, and he doesn't want the rumor mill to go wild on him being alone with women. My wife had the same problems...how will women get the same opportunities as the guys if the women don't get the 1 on 1 time?

Women are asking men to risk their career for theirs. Unless a mutually beneficially circumstance arises, men won't do it. Now, if women had to prove allegations beyond a reasonable doubt, then you'll see men take these risks. With every phone being a recording device, I can see the viability of companies adopting a more strict requirement for accusers to prove something happened. I don't know why it's still he said/she said.

[–]AssAssIn46 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think he's just religious and doesn't think it's appropriate. I don't like the guy, in fact I dislike him but I don't really see a problem with this particular idea of his because ultimately it doesn't harm anyone and if anything it protects everyone involved.

That's the problem with modern politics though. People will see they disagree with a person on something/somethings and then completely denounce everything the person does regardless of whether what they do is a good or bad thing.

[–]alclarkey 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You're reading too much into it. Mike Pence is a christian and adultery is a sin. The Mike Pence rule is so that he doesn't get tempted to cheat on his wife. It really had nothing to do with #metoo or anything related.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 22 points23 points24 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Feminists: Any woman alone with a man is bound to be harassed and raped.

Also feminists: it's so unfair I can't get the one on one mentoring with this guy that I feel entitled to!

[–]Blutarg 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Precisely.

[–]HiredMind 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

(Off topic)

By the way if any of you guys are wondering about this:

https://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/8ync63/the_mike_pence_rule/e2dld7e/

  1. In every state law I've ever read, this only applies to recordings that you later make public. If you never make it public, the mere act of recording isn't illegal.

  2. I'd rather get probation for a misdemeanor 'wiretapping' charge than a decade in prison for a rape I didn't commit. That's IF the prosecutor decides to press charges after he's been publicly humiliated during the rape investigation and/or trial.

He/she also mentions doctor's offices. I'm no expert on HIPPA, but I would think that confidential information should only be discussed when patients are isolated from each other. So unless you're hanging out in another patient's exam room, you would only be recording your own private info, to which you are already privy.

There are really only a few restrictions, based on intimate privacy. Basically, bathrooms, changing rooms and bedrooms and the like.

[–]MalibuStayZ 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Neither American nor a jurist but it seems that in California it is illegal even if you don't make it public: https://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-632.html

A person who, intentionally and without the consent of all parties to a confidential communication, uses an electronic amplifying or recording device to eavesdrop upon or record the confidential communication, whether the communication is carried on among the parties in the presence of one another or by means of a telegraph, telephone, or other device, except a radio, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500) per violation, or imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or in the state prison, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

What I stumbled upon is https://np.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/8ync63/the_mike_pence_rule/e2d37us/ :

keep liability insurance premiums reasonable

Are there really insurance companies which offer lower premiums if you have such a policy? Never heard about that.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I'd rather get probation for a misdemeanor 'wiretapping' charge than a decade in prison for a rape I didn't commit

Isn't there a thing about illegal evidence not being permissible?

[–]HiredMind 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That's the "exclusionary rule". It only applies to the prosecution.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

So, if you decided that, rape being a difficult crime to prove, you had a 5% chance of being convicted of rape or you could introduce the evidence and be guaranteed to not be convicted of rape but a 100% chance of the lesser charge of recording stuff illegally, which would you choose?

The alternative would be to hold off on the extra evidence until absolutely necessary (it began to look like conviction was becoming certain), but then it raises questions about hiding your crime earlier, which might be a more severe charge.

[–]HiredMind 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think hiding evidence of a crime is a crime in itself. One doesn't have a legal duty to immediately confess to law enforcement. There are laws about lying to law enforcement, but in this scenario you should be letting your lawyer do all the talking to them anyway.

[–]PowerWisdomCourage 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most people are being reasonable and shutting it down. Good on Reddit.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This is straight up liability control. Ask anyone who works with kids. Rule number one is "never be alone with a minor". Why? Children, like all people, are liable to make shit up, and no matter how small the odds, it's easily prevented and not worth the risk.

[–]nforne 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Enough people must have commented about Metoo that she edited her post to acknowledge the fact.

She then modifies her complaint, saying her boss should apply the "no closed-door-one-on-one-meeting" rule across the board, to men as well as women.

As someone who was enjoying the unintended consequences of Metoo, her suggestion feels like letting the Metoo harpies off the hook. But the egalitarian in me feels she makes a good point. Dammit.

[–]Uzrathixius 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Eh. It's not egalitarian to spread the consequences of one groups actions (women...) to everyone.

Women knew what they were doing, they chose to do so. Let them reap the crop that they sewed. Forcing that policy on everyone would only take away the responsibility of their actions.

[–]nforne 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

That's groupthink. Only a minority of women were in the Metoo brigade, and plenty of white knights were supporting them.

We've got to remain above that, even when it works the other way.

[–]RobDog101 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

A majority of women I know, even the one's I consider friends (though maybe not for long), seem to basically share the same thinking about sexual assault/harassment being such a huge problem that it's okay to undermine due process and presumption of innocence, to see a few innocent men lose their jobs, and to broaden even the definition of what constitutes assault (e.g. saying that there can be no consent if there is a power imbalance).

[–]Uzrathixius 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If you don't speak up, you're part of the movement by default.

It's like cops. The best cop is only as good as the worst, as they don't police themselves.

Fight it all you want, but it is us against them. To totally dismiss groups is absurd. To do so is to lose.

[–]nforne 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Who is "them"?

[–]geniice 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Eh. It's not egalitarian to spread the consequences of one groups actions (women...) to everyone.

I'm pretty sure Anthony Rapp and Terry Crews are male.

[–]Uzrathixius 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Idk about the first, but the latter would not be part of the me too movement. The Me Too movement is by women seeking revenge / advantage for actions they took themselves.

[–]Mode1961 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wouldn't that be like having a rule that you aren't allowed to visit certain countries because they are dangerous and then wanting to extend that to ALL countries.

[–]Blutarg 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Nothing wrong with that suggestion. That would protect the boss from more accusations of wrongdoing than just sexual harassment.

[–]omegaphallic 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

#Metoo isn't running amok, shit like this is #Metoo working as intended by it's creator, so chaos, gender divisions,exploit the results for the benifit of feminusn at everyone elses expense.

[+]ThatNinaGAL -11 points-10 points-9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

A supervisor who treats their employees differently based on their race, sex, creed, nationality etc. is a huge liability for their company, and needs to be put on a performance plan to correct their discriminatory behavior, or gotten rid of if they refuse to obey the law.

If a company wants to allow their higher-ups to refuse private meetings with ANY employee, that's certainly a reasonable position, and chaperonage can be arranged. But saying "no, I won't be alone with females, so you are being shunted out of your customary role in this professional process and replaced with a male employee" is unmistakable, explicit, egregious discrimination.

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