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Girls, 13, lied about park sex attack, say Greater Manchester police

EliCaaash

April 5, 2016
576 upvotes
/r/MensRights
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/05/girl-13-lied-about-park-sex-attack-say-greater-manchester-police
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Post Information
Title Girls, 13, lied about park sex attack, say Greater Manchester police
Author

EliCaaash

Upvotes 576
Comments 136
Date April 5, 2016 11:32 AM UTC
(10 years ago)
Subreddit Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/4dg002/girls_13_lied_about_park_sex_attack_say_greater/
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/girls-13-lied-about-park-sex-attack-say-greater.952520
https://theredarchive.com/post/952520
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Comments

[–]TedTheAtheist 52 points53 points54 points 10 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Girls, 13, lied about park sex attack

OMG. Shocker.

That never happens.

[–]mwobuddy 17 points18 points19 points 10 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/son-12-how-can-rapist-7639672

And people even in this sub want the girls to be treated differently because "girls are special". Or some shit.

Can't everyone admit already that we want to protect girls and women, and we see everything they do as non-harmful even when it is? That's why you all laugh at genital mutilation of males at the hands of girls.

Females are NOT special. They dont deserve extra consideration above males. They don't deserve to avoid consequences for actions above males.

[–]TedTheAtheist 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

And people even in this sub want the girls to be treated differently because "girls are special". Or some shit.

THEY ARE SPECIAL LITTLE SNOWFLAKES!

That's why you all laugh at genital mutilation of males at the hands of girls.

I asked my 70+ year old mom about how and why this happened. She shrugged it off and blamed the doctors. Said she didn't know any better.

I will never do that to my son if I ever have one.

Females are NOT special. They dont deserve extra consideration above males. They don't deserve to avoid consequences for actions above males.

Tell that to our judicial system.

[–]mwobuddy 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I mean the judicial system is still made up of individuals isn't it, and our society tells individuals "women are special and less responsible yet more equal than men".

[–]TedTheAtheist 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

How do you think this can ever change? Aside from AI taking over and laying down the law equally?

[–]mwobuddy 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It really is about convincing other males that the rose colored world they see isn't true. Once the veil drops, they will be pissed. I mean, how pissed were you when you learned that you'd been lied to about something for a long time by people you trusted?

Getting pissed off is the first step towards being encouraged to spread the message.

[–]Mencite 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

mwobuddy I'm not sure its worth arguing with TedTheAtheist he's an anti you'll never persuade him. He's just there to annoy and frustrate other posters. MRA's are acting for equal treatment by the law and look at what he types:

How do you think this can ever change? Aside from AI taking over and laying down the law equally?

This subreddit is being spammed by antis who just annoy serious posters we should be doing something about it.

[–]VolkswagenBeatle 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I really don't think that's what people are saying. In this case, the reason why the girls don't deserve jail time is because they're kids. They don't deserve jail time because kids their age make stupid dissensions all the time. I really don't think that it's because they're girls. That alone doesn't make you any better than the feminists who say all men are rapists.

I support men and women equally because that's the way it should be. Men aren't better than women, and women aren't better than men. We're all humans in the end, and that's what I believe in.

[–]mwobuddy 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I really don't think that it's because they're girls

LOL

[–]VolkswagenBeatle -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You know, I'm actually kind of interested to hear your argument on this. Please, tell my why women are to blame for this.

[–]mwobuddy 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

What?

[–]VolkswagenBeatle -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Turns out I'm stupid. Somehow I read your comment as anti-female jargon. I'm really sorry that I made these assumptions of you based on my inability to carefully read what people say on the internet before conducting my thoughts. Sorry for wasting your time.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]VolkswagenBeatle 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Legally, it isn't. Most states draw the line at 18, 17, and 16. Anyone younger than that are not held criminally responsible. In more serious cases, such as murder, you can be tried as an adult. So, it's not a "pussy pass", it's the law.

I highly doubt that these two knew what they were doing and what would happen if they were caught. Hopefully, they will learn from this not to do it again.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points23 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

But...but....false rape charges don't happen!!

[–]hounvs 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It wasn't a false rape charge

That said, I don't see how this was even a sexual assault. According to the story, he just "approached her from behind before hitting her and throwing her to the floor."

I know it was a false story but I don't see the sexual part.

That said, there was never any mention of rape charges or anything so don't make this about something it's not.

[–]PolishHammerMK 10 points11 points12 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

ibelievesurvivors hurrrrrrr

[–]Argosy37 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I believe survivors even when they don't believe themselves!

[–]TheDude41 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

a

[–]DarthOvious 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, because then they would know where he lives. I'm sure he just wants to keep his distance away from them now.

[–]Alkomb 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I completely agree. If I ever had a daughter who did that, I'd make her do that. I'd only have her take out their garbage if we were neighbors, though. Because I'd just waste a ton of gas.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points20 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

this is why people shouldnt be rallying around someone who said they got raped. it has now become too glorified and is a badge of honor. so there is great incentive to lie about it. does anyone ever lie that they got robbed? they get no accolades for it.

[–]bat_mayn 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Its fucking disgusting.

Every woman wants their special "I Was Raped" membership card. No card? No benefits for you.

[–]CornyHoosier 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Shit, I've been robbed at gun and knife point a good few times (happens if you live and deliver food in the hood). There is really no reason to bring it up in any conversation. Hell, my own mom didn't even know until one of my buddies off-offhandedly mentioned it.

You know what I did afterwords? I went and took self defense classes, started carrying a weapon and learned where and what were potentially harmful areas. I learned that the way I dressed and acted in certain areas made me a viable target to others.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I learned that the way I dressed and acted in certain areas made me a viable target to others.

ha exactly. motherfucking exactly. i've said it so many times. if there is nothing a woman can do to prevent rape then why are there entire industries revolving around security? why do people tell you to not put valuables in your car? i'm not talking about dads raping their daughters. i'm talking about college girls not getting too drunk at parties or going home with guys they barely know. maybe if feminists accepted some rational tips and rejected others, i might give them some credit as a reasonable group. their flat out rejection of responsibility is completely ridiculous.

as for what happened to you, i grew up in the hood and people left me alone. then i left it and came back to go to some old favorite restaurants. they can tell i was soft now and somebody started shit with me every single time i went there. i don't fucking cry about it and become a victim. it's just how the world works. i wonder how women think they are going to be equals with men when they won't shoulder the responsibility of how harsh the world can be.

[–]mwobuddy 85 points86 points87 points 10 years ago (113 children) | Copy Link

Detectives said the girls had been “spoken to in the strongest possible terms” and had written letters of apology to the man. They will face no further police action.

How about some fucking jail?

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Scare her straight into emotional trauma. Being arrested alone is a massively traumatic experience for a 13 year old, and I know. Prison definitely is not the answer in this case.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I didnt get hard disciplin it worked out fine

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points-1 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Bad yes, jail? Sounds like bad idea

[–]CornyHoosier 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think they'll be alright with a little punishment.

[–]Rasalom72 107 points108 points109 points 10 years ago (83 children) | Copy Link

They are 13... no need for jail. But some digging into the reason behind the accusation would be nice.... they are learning this shit from somewhere.

[–]drakecherry 23 points24 points25 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Just look around, most people believe anytime there is an accusation, something had to happen, because kids have no reason to lie, but when a kid hears that, they hear a way to get out of trouble, or revenge if someone upsets them.

[–]ThatOneGuy1294 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

kids have no reason to lie

Bullshit.

[–]InBaggingArea 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Mama.

[–]mwobuddy 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

https://www.crin.org/en/home/ages/Americas

https://www.gov.uk/age-of-criminal-responsibility

This means that children under 10 can’t be arrested or charged with a crime. There are other punishments that can be given to children under 10 who break the law. Children over 10

Children between 10 and 17 can be arrested and taken to court if they commit a crime.

They are treated differently from adults and are:

dealt with by youth courts given different sentences sent to special secure centres for young people, not adult prisons

They committed a serious act. They lied, possibly ruining a person's life. They committed it in the 'wild', not at home between family members where family takes care of it.

you think "strong talking to" is going to stop them from making a false accusation in the future?

This is why we fucking have jail. I fail to see why you're scared to send them to a little stint in jail because "they're just 13".

They did something serious. Their parents didn't teach them better. This is why we have jail. If you don't believe in jail for 13 year olds, I fail to see how you can believe in jail for 20 year olds.

A liar is a liar. They do it because they believe its okay to do, so making the argument "a 20 year old should know better by now" is a fallacy. They don't "know better" if they do it.

[–]Rasalom72 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

because at 20, a brain is almost completely mature (if not fully).. at 13, they are still developing... that's why we don't let children vote, or drink, or drive, or make their own choices regarding their medical treatment, or treat them like adults.

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

http://phys.org/news/2010-12-brain-fully-mature-30s-40s.html

Think again.

I'm quite sure your argument rests on the osmotic process of internalizing repeated garbled information about "the brain doesn't fully mature until 25" etc, but now that is proven not to be the case.

Rather, the brain doesn't stop DEVELOPING RAPIDLY until such and such period.

Development means ability to adapt and change, and to grow. Lack of development can be called maturity, sure. That's fine. But maturity then means lack of ability to change, and lacking ability to change means difficulty adapting.

That's why some old people hate new phones.

So lets dispense with the notion that 'maturity' via brain scans means anything good, shall we? Just because something has become 'mature' doesn't make it more capable.

If I hammer a child with awful messages as a borderline/bipolar parent, and then keep them living with me for 35 years, their brain will 'mature' alright, it'll 'mature' into one which is stuck with severe and chronic personality disorder issues, which makes it poor at being able to get along in society.

Maturity is a nice little buzzword, and I commend you layperson use of it to justify a theory.

However it means very little. I can give you numerous examples of teens who were 'mature beyond their years', that is, their brain certainly wasn't done developing, but they wrote newspaper columns, books, and graduated college early to live a very adult human life at an age far sooner than most people do. Did their brain develop super fast? I doubt it.

I think what you really mean by maturity is emotional and social, and that can vary wildly between anyone 10-60 years old.

As far as your assumptions of why we don't let them vote at a young age, and we have all other sorts of things at 18, that has to do with the history of voting rights, which were not available to most men or women. Voting became available at 21, and then got lowered to 18, despite your implied admission that 18 is less 'brain developed' than 21.

Furthermore, we have "minor emancipation". At a certain age, even a minor can emancipate themselves to live as an adult, paying for their own housing, working at a job, etc. Imagine a 15 year old as your apartment complex neighbor not as "kid of someone" but as actual renter.

I'm sure your beliefs rested on the assumed knowledge of the masses that people's brains weren't done until 25. If they're not done until the 40's, then perhaps people shouldn't be allowed to vote or have sex until 25.

If you're all about protecting the 'brain immature' from themselves, that is.

[–]bufedad 55 points56 points57 points 10 years ago (68 children) | Copy Link

They are 13, there is a need for jail.

I'm sorry, when you conspire to take 20 to 30 years of freedom from someone, then there needs to be jail time.

[–]Rasalom72 63 points64 points65 points 10 years ago (51 children) | Copy Link

If they were adults, then I agree.... but consequences for minors doing stupid things need to be serious, but not to the degree of jail time.... children of both genders need to be give the chances to learn.

In this case, social services should be looking at the home life of these kids and holding the parents to some type of account for the actions of their kids... I mean, who's raising them?

[–]mwobuddy 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

but consequences for minors doing stupid things need to be serious, but not to the degree of jail time.... children of both genders need to be give the chances to learn

You know how they get that chance to learn? In jail. As punishment for crimes.

What is serious punishment that doesn't involve jail time? Tell me one thing you can do without jail that is serious punishment for a 13 year old.

Failing to learn now WILL make them adults who are recidivist.

[–]SpaceDog777 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

That is what would happen in the US, and they have like zero crime now!

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You're implying people would stop being first time offenders.

[–]SpaceDog777 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

You are implying people who go to prison don't reoffend, I was being sarcastic.

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Then you should've said that, because your comment suggests that crime and especially first time offenses will completely stop.

[–]SpaceDog777 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Sure, I'll change because you can't pick up obvious sarcasm.

[–]sanskami 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah but they conspired to kill and acted on the conspiracy. Raping kids gets you killed in jail.

[–]Rasalom72 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, if you are an adult... but if a child rapes another child.. that kid isn't going to adult jail. They might do some time in juvie... but that's for actual rape. Still not actual jail.

[–]bufedad 16 points17 points18 points 10 years ago (41 children) | Copy Link

If they were adults, then I agree.... but consequences for minors doing stupid things need to be serious, but not to the degree of jail time....

So, if a minor murders someone, they don't need jail time?

No, they do.

If a minor takes away someone's freedom for 30 years, they don't need jail time?

They do.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

FWIW, we have sentenced 10 year olds to prison in England before now

[–]bufedad 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Every country has, because being a minor doesn't exempt you from the repercussions of your actions.

[–]derpylord143 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

actually most EU countries dont hold individuals under 13 accountable for crimes (most are 14-16 for criminal responcibility), england is one of the few EU countries that have it at 10, and that was due to public outcry after 2 individuals killed a baby and were going to not be punished. https://www.crin.org/en/home/ages/europe

public outcry was also why we banned owning hand guns as well, and most other dangerous objects really...

Edit: just noticed a couple had it at the ages of 12 and 1 other had it at 10, with the only lower one being Scotland at the age of 8, the rest were older. the US seems to be just as all over the place, with some being 18, others being 16, and more.

https://www.crin.org/en/home/ages/Americas

Edit 2: crossing out previous error

[–]mwobuddy 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The U.S. is not the entire "americas".

[–]derpylord143 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

True, i stand corrected, i wasnt paying too much attention, for that you have my thanks, i should have read it properly...

the page states "The minimum age of criminal liability is set at the federal and state level in the United States. At the state level, 33 states set no minimum age of criminal responsibility, theoretically allowing a child to be sentenced to criminal penalties at any age [Cipriani,D. Children's Rights and the Minimum Age of Criminal Responsibility: A Global Perspective, Ashgate 2009, p. 221 and 222], though in most of these states a capacity related test is applied.

Of the States that do set a minimum age of criminal responsibility, North Carolina has the lowest at seven years, while Wisconsin has the highest at ten years. [For full references of state laws see Cipriani D., Children's rights and the minimum age of criminal responsibility: A global perspective, Ashgate 2009, p. 219 and 220]"

i can assume that there is still some variatation among states with them (even if its only 3 years), and its correct to say that all US states could prosecute.

edit: removing some argumentative tone from my post.

[–]Rasalom72 31 points32 points33 points 10 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link

Except they didn't murder anyone. They made a false claim, and it was proven false... so the guy gets off, and his name is cleared. Now the girls should have their names released to the media as liars(if the guy's was, and it was), and they should be held socially responsible for their actions... but that's it.

The punishment should fit the crime. Not the potential punishment had he been convicted. Let's not get overly carried away like feminists do. Let's just chalk this up as a win and move on.

[–]bufedad 20 points21 points22 points 10 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

Except they didn't murder anyone.

That was to counter the minors shouldn't face jail time statement. Of course, they should for crimes that require jail time.

They made a false claim, and it was proven false...

So, minors who fire weapons at people shouldn't get jail time if they miss?

The punishment should fit the crime.

Damn right. The crime is trying to falsely imprison a man for 30 years. The punishment should fit that.

[–]Rasalom72 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

So, minors who fire weapons at people shouldn't get jail time if they miss? Again.. going way above.. shooting at someone with a deadly weapon is attempted murder.

The crime they actually committed was "lying to police" (making false statements I think it's actually called). Perhaps perjury if they made those statements under oath. Liable/ slander. None of these would result in jail time if made by an adult male... never mind a minor.

In the US, you would be able to sue for damages to reputation/ costs of defense, etc.. so that option should be open... but can you sue a 13 year old?

[–]bufedad 15 points16 points17 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

The crime they actually committed was "lying to police" (making false statements I think it's actually called).

That's like saying that the crime of attempted murder is only the crime of illegal discharge of a firearm.

It's not. Yes, making false statements to the police, or filing a false police report, is a crime that they committed. However, they also sought to falsely have a man imprisoned for decades. That is another crime in and of itself and should involve jail time.

Had they not come forward, his entire life would have ended. I understand that the harm to the men involved isn't relevant, but it damn well should be.

[–]LucasOFF 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The only problem I see by giving jail time to 13 year old girls is that their life will be ruined and they won't be able to rehabilitate from that. Punish parents and punish girls yet not ruin their lives.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]SMTTT84 16 points17 points18 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

had no idea the severity of what they were doing

If we aren't going to hold a 13 year old accountable for when they lie to police and potentially ruin the life of an innocent, then we also need to not take anything a 13 year old says seriously. If they aren't mature enough to be held accountable for their actions then they aren't mature enough to be a reliable source of information related to any accusation.

[–]mwobuddy 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey now, 13 year olds are only to be trusted when they claim to be a victim (rather than when they claim not to be a victim), because no one ever lies about being a victim /s

[–]bufedad 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

These girls are young and stupid and had no idea the severity of what they were doing and sending them to jail is absurd.

You're right. They only attempted to put this man through a process so horrible that men commit suicide because of it...

Sending them to jail for that... would be only justified.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (18 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]franklindeer -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

They need to be sentenced as a minor.

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I disagree completely.

[–]franklindeer -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Then frankly, you're an idiot. I don't care what the crime, children should not be treated as adults in the criminal justice system. They aren't adults. They aren't fully developed, they're inexperienced, they literally don't have the same ability to reason and anticipate consequences and that is precisely why we have juvenile courts and juvenile detention in the first place.

I take it though you're from the U.S where every jerk off D.A worth his or her salt has campaigned on a tough on crime platform and made charging 10 year olds as adults commonplace.

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Then frankly, you're an idiot. I don't care what the crime, children should not be treated as adults in the criminal justice system.

So, a 13 year old who goes around shooting infants in the head at a day care, shouldn't be punished?

Then frankly, you're an idiot.

You'll have to excuse me, if I don't take that seriously from someone with your above views.

[–]franklindeer -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I never said anything about not being punished, I said children should be charged as juveniles, not adults.

You'll have to excuse me, if I don't take that seriously from someone with your above views.

The view that juveniles should be charged as juveniles and not as adults when politically expedient for the prosecutor? I guess you don't take most of the first world's approach to criminal justice seriously then. Go back to Alabama and charge little kids as adults if you want but don't expect the rest of the world to think it's the way things ought to be done.

[–]You_Will_Die 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Placing a 13 year old in jail will just completely fuck that person up and when released a much bigger burden on society/bigger risk of hurting someone else. Jail is the worst solution you could come up with

[–]bufedad 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Placing a 13 year old in jail will just completely fuck that person up and when released a much bigger burden on society/bigger risk of hurting someone else. Jail is the worst solution you could come up with

Oh, so the man shouldn't be sent to prison if he was convicted of raping a 13 year old girl? That's good to know.

We should let people go somewhere else...

Or is your standard for rapists different if they are female?

[–]You_Will_Die 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Wait what? In your scenario an adult is raping a 13 year old, in the scenario I commented on a 13 year old made up attacks that got an adult "in trouble". Can you see how these are different even if we take away the degree of the crimes? The difference between an adult comitting the crime and a child no matter the gender?

[–]bufedad 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No, she is an attempted rapist. She attempted to have him kidnapped by force, held prisoner for a serious portion of his life, and rape by other prisoners (and possibly killed by other prisoners).

When we hold her accountable for these crimes, then there will be equality.

[–]InBaggingArea 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Dude! Please!

[–]Nissa-Nissa -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

20 to 30 years?

Where are you getting that from? How do those sentences you imagine add up to that much?

[–]bufedad 2 points3 points4 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

How does a violent rape of a 13 year old girl end up with a 20 year sentence? That seems like a pretty ridiculous question

[–]Nissa-Nissa 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's a fairly reasonable question, that can be answered. I know it would be about 10 years for the rape of the girl, but where do the others come from? If 30 years is your upper limit, are you suggesting an English court awards at least 15 years for violence that left no marks on the victim? Or am I missing some other serious charges?

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Leeds rape

Liverpool rape

Seriously? What do you think happens to men convicted of raping little girls?

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

From other rape convictions in England. I've replied with two to your other post. I'll reply with more if you want.

[–]Nissa-Nissa 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

One of them raped a four year old (the law separates under 13s and gives much longer sentences) so that doesn't really apply. The other man got 14 years, which while high for the sentencing regime, is far from the 20-30 you said?

[–]franklindeer -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

If this had gone further then I would agree with you, but they're still 13 and they're fucking stupid like all 13 year olds. I don't think they need to throw the book at them.

[–]bufedad -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

If this had gone further then I would agree with you, but they're still 13 and they're fucking stupid like all 13 year olds. I don't think they need to throw the book at them.

Being a stupid 13 year old isn't an excuse for any other serious crime, why would it be an excuse here?

Excuse me your honor, the prosecution has failed to prove that my client isn't a stupid 13 year old, I move to have the murder charges dismissed.

Granted.

[–]franklindeer 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Being a stupid 13 year old isn't an excuse for any other serious crime

Sure it is, which is why we have juvenile courts and juvenile detention centers and generally treat children with a lot more sympathy and forgiveness than a fully developed adult.

Also this wasn't murder.

[–]bufedad -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Sure it is, which is why we have juvenile courts and juvenile detention centers and generally treat children with a lot more sympathy and forgiveness than a fully developed adult.

Sure, that's why when a 13 year old does something cold and malicious, they are tried as an adult. And honestly, knee capping someone with a baseball bat is less serious than what she's tried to do here.

[–]franklindeer 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They aren't in Canada, or most of Europe.

[–]Tedesche 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I agree that minors should be treated more leniently than adults, and that there is no need for jail time in this case, but there should still be some consequence beyond a stern talking to and having to write letters of apology. They should have to do a hefty amount of community service at the very least. This "punishment" sends the message that what they did wasn't serious enough to warrant punishment. When these sorts of lies aren't caught, it is always the court system that is blamed, not the false accusers, and these girls weren't even charged with filing a false police report. No, there absolutely should be some form of punishment, a reprimand is not strong enough, no matter how strongly worded. If people see that the most they risk by making a false accusation is being reprimanded if they get caught, they will be more likely to take that risk.

[–]Rasalom72 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Agree totally... the punishment should be serious, but not life changing. All the calls for jail for children are seriously over zealous.

[–]Tedesche 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh, not all. I have no problem sending 13-year-old murderers to jail.

[–]Rasalom72 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I also have no problem with sending 13 year old murderers to jail. (assuming it's a juvinile facility)... but these girls aren't murderers.

[–]Tedesche 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Wasn't referencing this story, just making a point.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]Rasalom72 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol.. no, I'm saying it because they were children. Children don't deserve jail time for most offenses.

[–]spongecake341 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

She knows what she did wrong and she should be punished for it. At 13 you are more than capable of being responsible for your own actions.

[–]Money-Mattie 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I realize their 13 so jail time would be a stretch. But some type of juvenile program and community service desperately needs to be inforced. At this point, they aren't even being punished for their crime?

[–]Cloughtower 20 points21 points22 points 10 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

For someone who's just started using a training bra?

Normally I'd agree, but this just sounds like two kids making an impulsive decision. Things were cleared up quickly and I'm sure they were balling their eyes out after some proper grilling from the bobbies. With no real harm or malicious intent, jail would be an injustice.

[–]mwobuddy 8 points9 points10 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

So they learned that crying to avoid punishment works.

[–]umar4812 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh boy does that sound familiar.

[–]Cloughtower 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feigning remorse is an effective mitigation strategy, yes.

[–]DeathToCensorship 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Writing a letter won't do any good. Giving them no legitimate punishment will just enable them to do worse in the future. These are kids with functioning brains capable of understanding their actions, not "little kids." Jail is inappropriate; juvenile detention is the proper punishment, imo.

[–]Cloughtower -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't see the punishment as being proportional to the crime, nor can I justify a disproportionate punishment as a deterrent to the offenders that are older and have malicious intent.

Lesson learned, problem solved, minimal use of taxpayer money; I think that's a wrap. If they commit another crime than the judge will reference this as a factor and punish them accordingly. It's not just to punish people based on how likely you think they are to commit crimes in the future.

[–]DeathToCensorship 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I was trying to find a reason to agree with you, but I re-read the article and my assertion still stands. This girl said she was VIOLENTLY attacked then sexually assaulted. That's not "dumb kids being dumb kids," It's malicious attention whoring. Saving tax payer money shouldn't have anything to do with it, and you'd undoubtably feel differently if that was one of your friends or relatives. Societies in 1st world countries have been severely lacking when it comes to accountability for one's actions, and your punishment reinforces that. We have to set an example! That's why these things keep happening!

[–]IM_PRETTY_RACIST 13 points14 points15 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

For someone who's just started using a training bra? Normally I'd agree, but this just sounds like two kids making an impulsive decision.

Gotta agree. These are little kids, and little kids are stupid. They don't see that their actions have dire, dire consequences. They need to be taught a lesson, definitely, but don't need their lives ruined.

[–]mwobuddy 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Some jail time is not "lives ruined".

If that's what you believe, then no one should have jail time for crimes less than murder because its "too harsh and ruins their lives".

[–]the_omega99 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree. Jail isn't suitable here. It's simply too questionable if they fully comprehended the seriousness about what they lied about. We have to remember that lying is something that almost everyone does and never gets anything more than a slap on the wrist. It takes a fair bit of mental maturity to realize what kinds of things are completely unsuitable to lie about. And 13 year olds... well, they're not exactly known for maturity of any kind.

That said, wrong actions can't go unpunished and an apology letter is about as lax of a punishment as it gets. I'd prefer something more like community service. The reason being to make an example of what kinds of things should never be lied about. Not to mention how weak punishments for wrongdoing isn't exactly a strong enforcement.

[–]Cloughtower 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Vengeance isn't the solution. Without strong evidence implicating the accused man, he was not punished. The girls should receive a punishment equal to or less than the trouble they caused. Jail in my mind would exceed this.

I hate punishment to "make an example of someone." This is utilitarian morality that I simply cannot agree with.

Strong punishment for petty crimes isn't a good policy either.

[–]the_omega99 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure if it's always a good idea to scale punishments solely to the trouble caused. I think the potential for damage is also something to consider. For example, a drunk driver could get lucky and manage to not kill anyone... or they could kill several innocent people. I don't consider there to be a strong distinction in either case. They have the same intentions.

With regards to "make an example of someone", that's mostly a "within reason" thing. I disagree with the idea of punishing someone unnecessarily harshly for that purpose. But between letting someone off easy (as happened here) and making it clearer that what they did was wrong (hence the punishment), I'd say that certain actions need to stress the latter (and others need to stress the former).

I just don't view this particular crime as petty. It's more like a severe crime that was fortunately so horribly planned that it didn't have a realistic chance of working out in their favour.

[–]jonnytechno -5 points-4 points-3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

First offence of a 13 year old is lying and you're suggesting jail time, is that not a little jaded when adults aren't even treated this harshly?

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

They are 13 dude, are you really willing to condemned their lives to ruin over their adolescent stupidity? I get, you want "justice" but wanting 13 year olds to go to jail for their stupidity is just wrong, they have a full life to correct them and depriving them of job prospects, denies them that future.

[–]mwobuddy 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

to condemned their lives to

No more than I'd be willing to condemn 14-15-16-17-18-19-20 year old lives forever.

[+][deleted] 10 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]mwobuddy 5 points6 points7 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

So you're willing to ruin a 20 year olds life forever over a similar crime but not a 13 year old?

How moral, to wish someone permanently damaged or destroyed because they were a bit older.

[–]bienvinido 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

There actually are people who think sentences should be given regardless of whether the perpetrator is an adult or a minor? I'm not trying to be condescending here. I am seriously stunned that people actually hold this opinion on Reddit.

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Let the problem fester. That's fine.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

20 year olds are adults. Those seven years difference is the difference between a young kid and an adult. Its crazy that you think they are the same.

[–]risunokairu 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

They'll be provided mattresses to Cary on their backs.

[–]h_p_bitchcraft 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I grew up in the area this happened. The young girls took a picture of the fellow in question and his face did the rounds on social media, people were out for blood before knowing the facts.

They got restorative justice orders. This man was at the brink of having his life ruined and all they got was RJO's.

Some community service would have been better

[–]MasterBassion 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Calling for jailtime for these brats is pretty stupid. House arrest, curfew, some kind of punishment should be a given, not just a stern talking to. Anybody thinking these children should go to jail needs to give their head a shake and grow up, you sound like spiteful children, like those girls.

[–]Windows_97 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Why not community service? That seems reasonable for a child that age.

[–]MasterBassion 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes. Something to that effect. They definitely have a debt to society to be repaid.

[–]HardcoreRacer24 6 points7 points8 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

for all the people saying there"just 13" that's not the point wrong is wrong no matter the age and if they just get off with no punishment with the kids nowadays they'll push for more in the future so today it was false claims tomorrow it could be murder also there is juvi in so yea jail is a thing.

[–]IronJohnMRA -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Thankfully, their parents and the man in question were fully supportive of restorative justice and the girls will now have the chance to apologise fully for the terrible accusations they fabricated against this poor man.

Apologize for a false accusation? That's a first. Never heard of that before.

[–]Rockbottom503 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

'He said: “First and foremost, I would like to send my sincerest thanks to the members of public who came forward and helped with our investigation. Your assistance has resulted in an innocent man clearing his name, and wrongs being righted.'

This is what I find most sinister - as time goes by there is more and more of a presumption by the police that it is down to the individual to 'clear their name' and that accused people should be grateful if they manage to do so! I know these are 'kids' and all but at some point or another we are going to have to do something to discourage women and girls from making these false accusations! I'm yet to see even a serial false accuser receive any sort of comparative sentence.

[–]FreedomRevol 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No, the girls do not need to be imprisoned in this case. Maybe arrest them and give them a healthy and proportionate amount of public humiliation, but stop there and don't ruin their lives any more than that. Now if this case had gone differently and say the man's life was successfully destroyed beyond repair, and they were sufficiently malicious in their accusations, then yes you should absolutely destroy them, and make them suffer for all that they did. Eye for an eye is appropriate, but punishing someone based on a worst-case scenario of what might have happened, but didn't actually happen, is not appropriate. Call it a win for men. Though if this happened in America, I am not convinced that it would have gone quite as well as it did in this case.

[–]mwobuddy 3 points4 points5 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

We think imprisonment for crimes is the humane way to punish people.

If you think its inhumane to put them in jail, then why do you support jail for anyone?

[–]FreedomRevol 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I would support throwing them in Juvenile detention for a fair amount of time to straighten them out and drill into their heads just how badly they could have screwed up an innocent person's life. But we don't need to do anything that is likely to cause more harm than good and make them a huge burden to society in the future. After that, just put it on record that they really can't be trusted. In my earlier comment, imprisonment meant something worse than sending them to juvenile hall.

[–]xCAPTAINxTEXASx -2 points-1 points0 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hmm, what about the Lesser Manchester Police?

[+]gerbil_111 -8 points-7 points-6 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

You don't want to scare 13 year old kids. Kids should be allowed to be childish, fight and lie, without legal consequence. That is part of how brains, emotions and feelings develop- parents are there to be guides, not the police. By that same merit you should also not trust 13 year old kids.

In the American justice system, the kids could be sued with the judgement being applied when they turn 18. That is what should happen here.

[–]mwobuddy 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You don't want to scare 13 year old kids. Kids should be allowed to be childish, fight and lie, without legal consequence.

Incorrect.

[–]gerbil_111 -5 points-4 points-3 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Brilliant rebuttal. We now turn to the world to discover if there are different laws for children. It seems so. In fact, other than third world countries and the US, children cannot even be charged with such crimes. We now await another devastatingly concise response. Will he say 'no', 'poop', or 'lalala'?

[–]mwobuddy 7 points8 points9 points 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

What do you think most refraining from crime is? The fear of consequences.

They need to learn consequences, and thus fear. And yes, the U.S. does imprison children around 11-12 if they commit a crime.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/youngest-children-adults-1st-degree-murder-released/story?id=32644967

A brother and sister who were convicted of killing their father’s girlfriend when they were 12 and 13 years old, respectively, are set to be released in the next nine days, authorities said.

Curtis and Catherine Jones, now 29 and 30 years old, respectively, pleaded guilty to second-degree murder in the 1999 killing of Nicole Speights, according to Florida Today.

And thats JUST teens convicted as adults. Not even ones tried or convicted as 'juveniles'.

[–]gerbil_111 -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

If you re-read my comment, you will see i grouped the US with undeveloped nations for their attitude towards juvinile justice.

The reason most civilized countries don't try kids as adults is because they know children are developing. If you look at children who were punished harshly as kids, you don't find well disciplined members of society, you find thugs looking to inflict punishment on weaker people. Look at schools where police enforce rules and arrest kids. Do you think after serving 3 years for assault among hardened criminals for shoving another kid is going to make a 15 year old a better person? Kids don't belong in prison. There will be no betterment of character, and young teens don't have the cognition to relate to some other kid in a newspaper story. So there is no positive effect of criminal prosecution. The only people who feel better are scared people. Those who feel like they are victims or could be victims.

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you think after serving 3 years for assault among hardened criminals for shoving another kid is going to make a 15 year old a better person? Kids don't belong in prison.

So now you're making the argument that prison actually makes people worse? Then what are we to do with criminals?

And yes, assault is a crime whether 40 or 14.

[–]gerbil_111 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Is it assault for a 12 year old? A 10 year old? A 7 year old? How about 4? Prison is not a magic place which fixes people. The best prison can do is keep dangerous people out of society for a while. Not even the biggest proponents of the prison system is so deluded to think it benefits the inmate. And to do that to a child is simply destructive.

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What is being grounded?

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