TIL: Over a year ago, RAINN declared that "rape culture" doesn't exist. I don't think any feminists listened to them though.

[–]Imnotmrabut 13 points14 points15 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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I didn't say culture does not have the power to catalyze atrocities. It does. Cultures with high levels of racism or sexism could lead have lead to all sorts of atrocities. Just look at the Vietnam War. Tens of thousands of young men where kidnapped at gun point and shipped off to a foreign hell hole to be murdered in political blood sport. Countless more where murdered on the other side of the conflict as well. Individuals supporting the draft where not murderous monsters, but participants in mainstream culture.

Racism lead to about 80% of all Jews being murdered in 4 years. In the same time frame less than 2% of all women in the USA will be raped. Only 0.35% of men will rape in that time frame. About 1/3 of 1% is not "Culture", it is a fringe minority. With 1/3 of 1% of men engaging in rape, it is not a "normal" activity with institutional and cultural support.

If something is to be considered part of culture, first you need to show that it's wide spread and accepted enough that the stats are not better explained by a small fringe of criminal elements.

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Rape culture includes jokes, TV, music, advertising, legal jargon, laws, words and imagery, that make violence against women and sexual coercion seem so normal that people believe that rape is inevitable. Rather than viewing the culture of rape as a problem to change, people in a rape culture think about the persistence of rape as “just the way things are.” http://www.wavaw.ca/what-is-rape-culture/

The above feminist definition is exactly what RAINN is saying does not exist. TRPACC trying to sound all high and mighty with his internal definition which he didn't even bother posting. Yeah you're the only special snowflake that can articulate things.

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[+]ChronQuixote 11 years ago [recovered] (38 children) | Copy Link

I seriously doubt that any MRA with a modicum of intelligence would agree with what you perceive is their understanding of the meaning of rape culture.

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[+]ChronQuixote 11 years ago [recovered] (35 children) | Copy Link

"Having been around 6 years, I know what common mra interpretations are."

Using hearsay to support your argument isn't helping you. If your interpretation is common can you explain why everyone that has posted disagreed with you?

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except it doesn't. Because rape jokes are known as "dark humor". You know, fucked up humor that makes lots of people uncomfortable. Those jokes are seen as messed up, so, rape, is still seen as messed up.

How do you know what it sounds like to a rapist?

Do jokes about prison rape trivialize prison rape?

Not to forget, what about murder jokes? Is that "murder culture"?

We object to jokes about killing all men. There is no group of murder victims are going to strongly object to jokes at their expense, people object to Germans making jokes about murdering jews etc.

Is that "murder culture"?

Yeah, for example the culture surrounding the holocaust among those responsible likely involved lots of jokes about killing jews.

What about 9/11 jokes? Is that "terrorist culture?"

No doubt they are part of terrorist culture, do you really believe they have no jokes about it?

And no muslims were joking about 9/11 in new york after it happened in front of people that were effected and if they did, there would be objections.

You don't seem to be accounting for context at all.

[–]The03k3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How do you know what it sounds like to a rapist?

"Right, they are against rape jokes because rapists hear what they do being depicted as funny, and to that rapist it in a way normalizes their behaviour. "

Good work using logic that applies to your own argument.

Do jokes about prison rape trivialize rape?

Who the fuck knows? Not you, or me, that's for sure.

We object to jokes about killing all men. There is no group of murder victims are going to strongly object to jokes at their expense, people object to Germans making jokes about murdering jews etc.

Everyone objects to some form of jokes. Some people hate puns, some people hate rape jokes, some people hate knock-knock jokes, etc.

Yeah, for example the culture surrounding the holocaust among those responsible likely involved lots of jokes about killing jews.

Are you implying that the holocaust is normalized/not seen as such a bad thing because people make jokes about it? Seriously?

No doubt they are part of terrorist culture, do you really believe they have no jokes about it?

...Are you trolling right now? I never said that anything but there not being jokes about 9/11. You also completely missed the point. Oh, and who the fuck is "they"? You said "No doubt they are part of terrorist culture". "They" being "9/11 jokes", least that would be how it's supposed to be. However, "do you really believe they have no jokes about it" is talking about a person or rather, group of people. Who is this group? Terrorists? People who make the 9/11 jokes?

And no muslims were joking about 9/11 in new york after it happened in front of people that were effected

You have no idea if that's true or not. Not to forget, it doesn't matter if they were in NY, and/or in front of people who affected by it, and/or if they made jokes about right after it happened.

Because context really doesn't matter.

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[–]BlueDoorFour 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (41 children) | Copy Link

The mra impression is that that rape culture means the culture is openly and consciously supporting all rape including violent stranger rape, which is too absurd to be true.

Uh huh...

Since you didn't quote the definition in the article you linked...

Rape culture is the ways in which a society trivializes, rationalizes, or even condones rape and other acts of sexual violence.

Maybe some MRAs fit your impression of them. Since there's not central dogma to the MRM, it's hard to make any sweeping statements about them. However, I have yet to meet an MRA who believes your straw-strawman.

Personally, I can reject the concept on the definition you just gave. We do not live in a culture that trivializes, rationalizes, or condones rape or sexual violence (except when it's done to men, of course). It is hard to think of a crime taken more seriously, except maybe if the victim is a child.

In any case, what RAINN rejects is the usefulness of the concept in combating sexual violence. It is a crime, committed by criminals, and taken very, very seriously by the public. To pretend that society doesn't care about women -- when it cares especially about women -- is to deceive and fearmonger.

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[–]BlueDoorFour3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So your argument is that none of the jokes about rape trivialize rape, except prison rape jokes.

Jokes don't trivialize tragedies. Humor helps us cope with the horror of the world. Jokes about the holocaust, 9/11, North Korea, rape, racism... they're funny (to some) because they take a serious topic and treat it lightly. This may look like trivialization, but if the comedian or audience were to actually trivialize the subject, then the joke would lose its humor. The humor stems from the irony in casually handling such a heavy subject.

The only rape jokes you hear in an unironic, non-shock sense are jokes about prison rape.

No, Im saying mras thing their argument is that the culture openly supports violent stranger rape.

MRAs are mostly in line with Christina Hoff Sommers's views on this, and not the dead horse you've been beating.

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Boys are stupid throw rocks at them is nothing to do with feminism.

Never even mentioned feminism in that reply to you.

Ok, so that's normal and rape victims have no business objecting ... and a rapist cannot interpret this as society trivializing his crimes and to a victim trivializing what happened to them.

No need for the sarcasm. Never said rape victims have no business objecting. Also, a rapist interpreting it as society trivializing his crimes has nothing to do with this.

Im going to break off here now because you are just making things up as you go along and you are a hypocrite.

No idea what I made up.

Kill all men is trolling people who are going to take it seriously and its supposed to be feminists making fun of their man hating reputation. The real irony is lost on them.

To some. To others, it's a legitimate thing. People, out there, legitimately think men are useless and that they should die. Also, feminists making fun of their man hating reputation by saying all men should die, is like a rapist making fun of his rapist reputation by saying all women should be raped.

[–]TRPACC-2 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Never even mentioned feminism in that reply to you.

You didn't mention it specifically.

Except "kill all men" and "boys are stupid through rocks at them" was a hate thing, not a joke. People now use those for jokes, but it's still a hate movement type of a thing. Also, realize the difference between these jokes. Rape jokes are different from "Lol, I'm kill all men they're useless anyway". What's the difference? Well, rape jokes are jokes about someone getting raped or something of the like. "Kill all men" is like going "I'm going to kill a political leader" and then getting shocked when people don't like it. One can easily be taken as a real threat, while the other can't.

The context is going right over your head.

Feminists haven't killed all men, there is no issue with girls throwing stones at boys because they are stupid.

Unlike men making jokes about rape in which rape victims are the butt, in front of rape victims and rapists.

This whole context thing is alluding you, and you are a hypocrite.

[–]The03k3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I didn't mention it, at all.

The context is going right over your head.

Then explain it to me.

Feminists haven't killed all men, there is no issue with girls throwing stones at boys because they are stupid.

Now, you're the one bringing up feminists. Also, saying "Feminists haven't killed all men" is really stupid. You make it seem as though they have to have had "completed their objective" (The killing of all men) for it to be bad.

Unlike men making jokes about rape in which rape victims are the butt, in front of rape victims and rapists.

Already explained the difference. "Kill all men" can easily be taken as a real, threat. While a joke where a girl, boy, whatever, gets raped or whatever, cannot. It doesn't matter if they are in front of rape victims or rapists.

No idea how I'm a hypocrite. I even said that I'm against the people who are against jokes on any side.

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[–]BlueDoorFour3 points 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So the rules change when its prison rape, kill all men, boys are stupid through rocks at them etc.

No, and I didn't bring up two of those. Let's look at these one by one.

prison rape

The only kind of commonly-accepted rape-themed humor that is at the expense of the victim. Can you see the difference between jokes at the expense of the victims of a crime and jokes that, for shock value, make light of a serious topic?

kill all men, boys are stupid throw rocks at them

Do you really think MRAs believe that the majority of feminists want to kill all men, or condone violence? These jokes are annoying because they expose a double standard in attitudes about violence, and because they are not made with irony. It's more of the old "ugh, men are the worst" attitude and it's exhausting because it's pervasive and normalized. Some might even say it stems from hatred. I think it's just a self-justified anger against "the oppressors."

White comedians joking about lynching in front of a black audiences, with black victims as the butt would go down like a lead balloon.

As would either of the other examples you gave. Obviously. That's why you don't hear comedians joke like that. You also don't hear about comedians joking about raping audience members and then walking away with their careers, or faces, intact.

Now, people might make jokes at the expense of victims in private conversation. Not really my style of humor... but it works something like this: Neither of them has endured that tragedy. They are both shocked by the horrors of the world. Yet, for a moment, they can acknowledge it and not let it completely depress them. It's a way of coping with a harsh and unforgiving world, and it hurts NOBODY.

And if you think it does... show me the study that links rape jokes to increased rates of perpetration. Not to a more cavalier attitude toward rape -- show me where people joking about the subject actually led to it happening more.

[–]TRPACC-1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's why you don't hear comedians joke like that. You also don't hear about comedians joking about raping audience members and then walking away with their careers, or faces, intact.

It happened recently, he said he hope someone was gangraped after they objected to him joking with female rape victims as the butt, and the only reason their careers are threatened is because of people quite rightly objecting to them.

You are using double standards to argue for men making rape jokes with female rape victims as the butt.

Its a retarded thing to argue for.

Its like arguing that jews have no business objecting to germans telling them jokes about the holocaust, with jews being killed as the the butt of the joke.

If you want to make an argument against rape culture, find out what it is and make an argument, instead of arguing for men telling rape jokes with female rape victims at the butt.

You can raise the quality of your counter argument from that, to something relevant simply by finding out what rape culture is and then making a counter argument.

[–]BlueDoorFour1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It happened recently, he said he hope someone was gangraped after they objected to him joking with female rape victims as the butt, and the only reason their careers are threatened is because of people quite rightly objecting to them.

Daniel Tosh? He got in huge trouble for that.

You are using double standards to argue for men making rape jokes with female rape victims as the butt.

Prove it. Show me how I did that. I suspect you aren't even reading my responses.

Its a retarded thing to argue for.

It would be, if I'd done that. Read again, carefully.

Its like arguing that jews have no business objecting to germans telling them jokes about the holocaust, with jews being killed as the the butt of the joke.

Of course they have business objecting to it. Again, these jokes are not for everyone. I would, however, counter if they were to claim that (a) Such jokes would lead to another holocaust or (b) perpetuated an anti-semitic culture.

If you want to make an argument against rape culture, find out what it is and make an argument, instead of arguing for men telling rape jokes with female rape victims at the butt.

What I said:

Now, people might make jokes at the expense of victims in private conversation. Not really my style of humor... but it works something like this: Neither of them has endured that tragedy. They are both shocked by the horrors of the world. Yet, for a moment, they can acknowledge it and not let it completely depress them. It's a way of coping with a harsh and unforgiving world, and it hurts NOBODY.

I'm not advocating that comedians make careers at the expense of the victims of horrible tragedies. I'm offering an explanation of why some people make such horrible jokes, in private, out of earshot of those who would be offended by them.

You can raise the quality of your counter argument from that, to something relevant simply by finding out what rape culture is and then making a counter argument.

You're repeating yourself. I have educated myself on the concept of rape culture.

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Please stop down-talking to all MRAs. Our society is awash in rape culture-speak. Everybody on this subreddit knows what "rape culture" is -- even your special, insider definition. We aren't "missing out" due to our stubborn refusal to play ball. I think part of the reason the MR Movement exists at all is because there is no pushback -- in the mainstream -- against the supremacy of "rape" in our society.

You claim that victims tend to be swiftly blamed. You simply assert this. But what have we seen? The opposite. A claim of rape is practically pounced on like it's a golden ticket. The claims of "victims" are taken so seriously that, in our two most famous recent examples, merely telling a story ... a story with no evidence of any kind ... with which the "victim" refuses to co-operate investigatively ... is enough to suspend all fraternal organizations at a university, convince a mainstream publication to abdicate fundamental reporting, and basically egg the entire U.S. on to lynch the guys at the fraternity in question ... Or a rape accusation -- even after having failed to clear the low bar of a campus tribunal -- will nevertheless bring a girl to the State of the Union and shower her with awards for her bravery. This "victim" just gave a talk at Brown University that is filled with the spookiest illogical assertions an educated person can make (and I seriously doubt she was called on them):

http://i.imgur.com/q5C6bS2.png

Here's something I find much more grounded in the reality of our particular universe:

http://blog.oup.com/2013/07/myths-about-rape-myths/

The author, a reader in law at Oxford, set out to find out why, with rape laws in the UK having been reformed (read: toughened), and with rates of reporting consequentially having gone way up, have conviction rates for rape nevertheless remained static? The commonly-held answer to that question seems to be that "we" hold various "rape myths." Or suspect our fellow citizens of holding them. That is, that people "don't even know what rape is." Or something similar to what you're saying: that we don't even know what "rape culture" is, and our refusal to find out speaks ill of us.

But the author of the study, which scrutinizes beliefs like "People blame rape victims, even when they believe them," shows how fundamentally unreal they are. I suspect that your unique, insider's knowledge of "rape culture" itself relies on "myth myths."

And as far as "the things [MRAs] call rape culture" goes ... MRAs don't use the expression. At least, I sure as hell don't. Like "toxic masculinity," it's utterly cheap. It's a debate tactic used to pummel your opponent with anything but the merits of your argument -- and which sits upon a premise that the world is founded on a "hatred of women" ... which is goofballery of an epic stature. It's pure victimhood-confirmation bias. Here in the West, at least, the reality is the opposite. The White House relays false statistics; commissions and grants are funded every day to fight "hypermasculinity" and to "teach our boys not to rape" ... This is snake oil; and it's very disconcerting that no-one who is taken seriously (i.e., conservatives ... or whoever is foolhardy enough to risk the backlash) can counteract the power of the victim narrative.

[–]TRPACC1 point 11 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]mqudxhykz1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Title	TIL: Over a year ago, RAINN declared that "rape culture" doesn't exist. I don't think any feminists listened to them though.
Author	zktr
Upvotes	235
Comments	115
Date	April 28, 2015 2:16 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/345m2l/til_over_a_year_ago_rainn_declared_that_rape/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/til-over-a-year-ago-rainn-declared-that-rape.981659 https://theredarchive.com/post/981659

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