Convince a skeptic: at its best the MR movement is just espousing feminist ideals that argue against patriarchy.

SirT6 · 2014-08-04T20:33:42+00:00

I'm staking this thread out to see where it goes.

I do think it's offensive to imply that issues men face (specific to men) can be fixed with a gender-specific rights movement focused on women. Just from logic alone, that doesn't seem right.

Feminism likes to think it's an egalitarian movement, but I've yet to see a feminist make an argument against mothers winning custody more often in the courtroom. I haven't heard a feminist talk about workplace injuries / deaths.

They only mention issues that are pressing to women. The glass ceiling, sexual harassment, general prejudice, etc. If feminism doesn't even talk about men's issues, how can it be expected to fight for us?

I have no problem with feminism remaining specific to women, but to say that we don't deserve our own support group for issues we face? Ridiculous.

SirT6 · 2014-08-04T21:47:54+00:00

First off, check out our sidebar. It has information that you'll want about the MRM from the source.

Second, I don't really understand how you can be skeptical of what the MRM is fighting for. Patriarchy aside, the issues the MRM is fighting for are pretty solid. Child custody, female-on-male rape recognition, domestic violence, resources for men's health and shelters, male suicide, diminishing male performance in education, it goes on and on.

Thirdly, this Patriarchy argument is old and tired. Many famous MRAs have debunked this theory many times (I suggest you look at TyphonBlue's youtube channel, I believe she has several videos illustrating just how illogical Patriarchy Theory is), but disregarding the plethora of evidence already out there, Patriarchy Theory itself is completely meaningless. Feminists are always unwilling and unable to come to a consensus about what Patriarchy is exactly, allowing it to change and form to whatever it is they need it to when any various situation arises. The state wants to criminalize prostitution? Holy fuck, Patriarchy in action, criminalizing these poor women who are just trying to make an honest living. What's that? The government is legalizing prostitution? Shitballs, Patriarchy strikes again! Now it's exploiting these poor women by encouraging them to become sex objects for MEN instead of becoming engineers and scientists and presidents. You see the problem here?

Further on this Patriarchy nonsense, I would encourage you to check around and find out just what group has been the biggest obstacle to the MRM recently. Was it the Patriarchy who protested outside Dr. Farrell's seminar on male issues at a college campus? No, it was feminists. Was it the Patriarchy who pulled a fire alarm and forced the evacuation of another conference on men's issues? No, it was feminists. Was it Patriarchy who opposed default shared parenting laws in the U.S.? No, it was NOW, aka, feminists. Here is a more put-together list if you care to find more examples illustrating that Patriarchy is not the #1 enemy the MRM finds itself against (unless you're definition of Patriarchy is feminism).

Lastly, you want to know what it is the MRM has accomplished. Fair enough. First and foremost, we get the message out. How long ago did you hear about the MRM? How long ago did anybody know about the MRM or any of the issues that men face these days. Promulgating the issues is the first concrete step, followed closely by allowing a place for people to gather and discuss the issues, which is why we have places like this subreddit. From here, the MRM branches out everywhere. The more famous speakers like GWW and Dr. Farrell will travel around giving speeches and seminars (when they aren't picketed and shut down by the local feminist mobs), while others raise money for political action on the part of men or for men's shelters and programs (Paul Elam and AVfM). Again, you probably won't find those programs here on reddit, aside from a link here or there, but they are out there, and all it takes is a little exploration on the part of a curious benefactor to find out ways to contribute something tangible to the MRM and the improvement of men's well being.

I think that covers everything, but let me know if you have any questions. Also, do check out the sidebar. It has a lot of critical information that might help you make up your mind.

EndlessTosser · 2014-08-04T20:28:15+00:00

I'm not quite sure why you think gun control is either a useful or essential part of the MRM.

Convince me.

SarcastiCock · 2014-08-04T20:28:21+00:00

What if... patriarchy v. feminism is a false dichotomy?

What if...patriarchy is just a made up boogey man?

genericusername80 · 2014-08-04T21:08:50+00:00

no movement to impose stricter gun control and safety

What does this have to do with men's rights? Sounds like you're just a liberal with a list of pet projects.

The_Patriarchy · 2014-08-04T22:33:56+00:00

I'd say you're not much of a skeptic if you believe in patriarchy theory to begin with. Beyond that, I'd say that anything can be rationalized as "patriarchy" if you jump through enough mental hoops.

As far as the feminist movement encompassing the MRM, I'd suggest perhaps you aren't quite familiar with what feminism is, and would suggest you read the article I've previously written on the matter. Feminism isn't just belief in equality.

SirT6 · 2014-08-04T20:39:12+00:00

Patriarchy is an highly sexist and offensive theory which really has no merit in a proper discussion.

For the most part of human history we've been a hunter-gatherer society, where men were expected to die fighting animals and for the betterment of women and children. If a man died fighting an animal, another man no matter his age or physical abilities was expected to pick up the slack and support the widow often forcing him to risk his own health to try and support the widow. The patriachel claim makes no sense, when men for the majority of history has put women before themselves.

"But let’s not pretend that all opinions are created equal – some are based on fact, and some are total bullshit" - From one of your links.

Now you may argue that in agriculture and after, men had more rights than women. While this is correct please remember that these privileges were offered to men thanks to their tremendous sacrifices and you could hardly expect the same privileges awarded to women sitting around talking about Uggs or Johns penis size.

RonaldoFearsEboue · 2014-08-04T20:51:29+00:00

Well patriarchy refers to the patriarchal structure of the family. See the problem with this? We live in a nation/s of single mothers by choice.

DougDante · 2014-08-04T22:17:13+00:00

And there has been little visible effort by the movement to effect social change[3] (i.e. no funding of shelters for abused men, no movement to impose stricter gun control and safety, no suicide support lines for men etc.).

FAQ #15. Why haven't Mens' Rights Activists tried "to start a shelter for battered or homeless men"?

What am I missing?

FAQ # 36. What made you realize that Mens Rights was a legitimate issue?

aesopstortoise · 2014-08-04T21:16:15+00:00

As a newcomer to most things MRM it seems to me that 'the movement' as yet, is tiny, and that what is happening, is the establishing, very much against the general flow of public discourse, that issues affecting men and boys are real, serious and important. As well as society's inbuilt bias against acknowledging vulnerability in males, there is now the added and active prejudices of gender feminists, who will seek to maintain the idea of 'woman as victim' at all costs. This includes the deliberate obscuring of the truth of any issue where male needs may appear to be competing with female needs or the idea of female victimhood, and the deliberate spreading of lies and distortions, about, for example, domestic violence, rape, the gender pay gap, circumcision/FGM. It was distortions concerning domestic violence and the hard heartedness towards boys failing in education and men in prison, that led me to seriously look at the MRM in the first place.

There is a great difference between patriarchy as found throughout history, with its varying duties and obligations, and 'The Patriarchy' as feminism's arch enemy, which is viewed in Marxist terms as a system whereby all men oppress all women. The fact that the words are the same is deceptive, but then much about feminism is, and that is no accident.

2014-08-04T21:50:40+00:00

i.e. no funding of shelters for abused men

One of the editors at avfm sent up the shelters movement, she was hounded out by feminists, who made it discriminatory and to this day monopolize the narrative and funding on domestic abuse.

The feminist position is the promotion and enforcement of "patriarchy", women don't really abuse men, only woman really need shelters. These lies are are used to drive policies, from arrest to family law.

Your source is very biased.

not_just_amwac · 2014-08-04T22:05:43+00:00

OK, cool. Let's go with your belief that it's all because of Patriarchy.

When will you decide that Patriarchy is dead? What's the defined "end" of Patriarchy?

Lobstermansunion · 2014-08-04T23:09:34+00:00

I just got done debating a group of feminists on another forum who strongly asserted that "no serious feminist believes in patriarchy theory anymore" and, furthermore, "labeling modern feminists as believers in patriarchy theory is a strawman argument invented by anti-feminist right wingers."

How about you and your fellow feminists get together and agree on one single solitary datum about your own movement before you lecture us?

johnmarkley · 2014-08-04T23:35:26+00:00

And there has been little visible effort by the movement to effect social change[3] (i.e. no funding of shelters for abused men, no movement to impose stricter gun control and safety, no suicide support lines for men etc.)

Why don't you ask Erin Pizzey what happened when she tried to support shelters for abused men?

aussietoads · 2014-08-05T01:35:52+00:00

Feminism IS Patriarchy.

SirT6 · 2014-08-04T23:30:05+00:00

If you believe we live in a patriarchy, I'm skeptical as to whether you really are a skeptic.

jesterace · 2014-08-05T01:25:21+00:00

You don't seem to understand the balance between protection and agency. The only group in society that has both, are women. How? Because when women did not have (or did not make use of) agency, they were protected and provided for. Then they decided they would like some agency, but keep being protected and provided for. It just so happens they replaced men with the state.

Perhaps you are unaware that early on, women were against the feminist movement because they were under the impression that if women were given agency and held equally accountable to men, they would lose protection and provision. Well, feminism has done a fantastic job of putting their fears to rest because they managed to get and keep both. This is not equality.

Sure, feminists talk a good talk about ending gender roles and giving women more choice but in action it means pushing women to work and shame those who would choose a more traditional role. You know, the opposite of more choice. As for helping men, they're only interested in this if it doesn't take anything away from women. You cannot give fathers equal access to their kids because that's inherently taking away from women, and we can't have that.

When feminist solutions sound identical to traditionalism, you would expect some alarm bells to be going off somewhere. The fact is that traditionalists and feminists are 2 sides of the same coin when it comes to controlling masculinity to benefit women. They are both responsible for perpetuating what you and others call "the patriarchy". I can't help but laugh every time i hear a feminist wanting to "smash the patriarchy" because the only way of doing that is to reject their precious ideology and eternal victim-hood. That would require some level of self-awareness and let's face it, that ain't gonna happen.

This movement acknowledges that men have historically had agency, but it exists to open people's eyes to the fact that sometimes men need protection too, something which they've never had. From everything i've seen, feminists are actively preventing this from happening while claiming that they're helping us.

The secondary goal is to get society (especially feminists) to stop infantilizing women, which will not happen until women stop expecting preferential treatment and demand their share of accountability/responsibility for their choices and actions. Good luck convincing them of that. Women's voices, post-feminism, is the only thing that can bring about true equality.

There is a reason why the most popular MRAs are women. Where society dismisses men for bringing these things up, it is all too willing to listen when women say the same thing. This tells me all i need to know about how much power women have had all along.

nicemod · 2014-08-04T21:38:22+00:00

Interesting that none of your links are to things said by men's rights activists themselves, and two of them are to articles written by its enemies.

Have you considered actually looking at what the movement says for itself?

We've heard all your arguments before, and all have been convincingly countered.

I don't think you're seriously interested in learning about us - only in arguing against us. The place for that is r/femradebates.

Methodius_ · 2014-08-05T01:04:08+00:00

As long as you believe in the idea of patriarchy, you will never see eye to eye with the MRM. Because with zero proof required, you can simply sit back and go "Your issues are caused by the patriarchy". And with that, you feel morally superior in any argument.

But the fact of the matter is that patriarchy theory, as defined by modern feminists, simply does not exist. If Western society had a system in place that existed solely to benefit men and bring down women, men's issues would not only not be mostly ignored, they would probably have been fixed by now. Men would no longer make up the majority of suicides, workplace deaths, cancer deaths, etc. We would've figured out why men live shorter lives. There would be multiple shelters for male victims of domestic abuse and sexual assault. But none of that is true. Just because there is a large group of old white men in power does not mean that all men benefit from it. As a white guy from a poor family, I'm sick of the crap that they've been doing too. And I certainly don't get any benefit from it.

And as has already been said, the Men's Rights Movement has not been active for very long, whereas Feminism has been active for many, many years. It is backed by government funding. The MRM does not have that. So even when someone tries to do something, like, say, set up a shelter for male victims of domestic violence, it often falls flat.

Not to mention, as has already been said, any time the MRM tries to set something up, feminists come and try their best to stop it. But rest assured, as the movement has just had the first international conference for men's issues. And it will certainly not be the last. It is only a matter of time before more people see that men actually face issues and that those issues need support and change.

Underfolder · 2014-08-05T01:45:44+00:00

The MRM is different from feminism in that it sets particular goals. Granted, not all MRAs will agree on the goals or their priority, but there is little discussion of what those goals mean. Equality is very well defined for the MRM. The MRM would like to see proportionally equal services for both male and female victims of domestic abuse. The MRM would like to see the same police standards used in cases of domestic violence between men and women. The MRM wants the same standards set for both men and women for jobs, regardless of sex. The MRM wants proportionally equal resources given to suicide prevention for the sexes.

You can call feminism "a movement to end sexism" but that's at best a vague goal. If ending sexism means equal representation in all jobs, that includes the crappy ones like garbage collectors and cannon fodder infantry. Granted, some feminists do accept that equality means more women will be in the worst jobs and situations, too. For the most part, feminism only views the benefits statistically associated with men. Equality means equality in all aspects.

In short, the MRM's goal is equal rights and equal responsibilities for men and women. Feminism, judging by the activity of many self-proclaimed members, looks for equal rights without equal responsibilities. Some feminists, for better or worse, openly agree that their interest in in rights but not responsibilities. So yes, in a way, the MRM is just espousing feminist ideals, but you have to be very explicit in what you mean by "feminist ideals."

Many influential feminists have espoused ideas that view men and women as fundamentally different creatures, in a zero-sum-game competition with each other, where women must defeat men to gain equality. These are not "feminist ideals" unless you change the meaning of "feminist." And that's what happens with incredible frequency. Criticism of feminism is defended by falling back to the "but feminism is about ending sexism," but then decidedly non-equality fostering ideas are put forth as soon as all is clear.

So if you want to stick with the idea that the MRM is just feminist ideals with a different perspective, you can. But you are then left with the problem of explaining how so many self-proclaimed feminists are not really feminists. Or do what we do. Understand that feminism is a movement more than an ideal or goal, especially today.

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guywithaccount · 2014-08-05T00:43:39+00:00

The arguments that it makes to support the notion of misandry have never stuck me as particularly compelling.

Okay. Door's right behind you.

Many of the more legitimate concerns and seeming inequities voiced by the movement seem to ironically stem from patriarchy.

"Patriarchy" has no fixed meaning, and in the sense in which most feminists use the term, it does not exist.

What am I missing?

Sense.

SirT6 · 2014-08-04T21:15:47+00:00

Chivalry is dogshit.

Title	Convince a skeptic: at its best the MR movement is just espousing feminist ideals that argue against patriarchy.
Author	SirT6
Upvotes	0
Comments	168
Date	August 4, 2014 8:25 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2cmd5m/convince_a_skeptic_at_its_best_the_mr_movement_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/convince-a-skeptic-at-its-best-the-mr-movement-is.997308 https://theredarchive.com/post/997308

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