Promiscuity and pair bonding

Jekawi · 2020-08-08T11:28:33+00:00

Disclaimer: while I do know the theory, my scientific language is lacking so please excuse/correct the terminology.

Truth: receptors to such hormones as serotonin, oxytocin, dopamine, etc can become "over used" and as such the brain will compensate, resulting in more of the required hormone for the desire effect.

However, what they didn't say is that after time without the increased amount of hormone, the brain "relaxes" again and the desired "high" can be achieved again.

Simple simple simple example: masturbating. If I masturbate twice everyday, the orgasm will be pleasurable for sure. However, if I go for a week or more without masturbating and then try again, the hit will be stronger.

However, for reasons someone else could explain, searching after sex for the "oxytocin" high is not a thing. Oxytocin is also released while hugging. And I've never really heard of a woman searching for sex only for this.

So, in regards to this matter, it's makes absolutely no sense to talk about "pair bonding" as if it has a set amount of times that it could happen. The brain is extremely flexible to adaptation and new situations. The fact your gf has had 33 previous partners means bugger all hormonally. Your thoughts of her leaving/cheating on you is more rooted in your own insecurities/fears. And look, it could happen if she's an absolute ass. However, it has nothing to do with this oxytocin "limitations"

Eat_My_Fingers_ · 2020-08-08T11:53:27+00:00

It's rather a fantasy that women are immediately attached to the men they just had sex with and it has nothing to do with reality. The example of virgins is absolute bullshit because women usually (not always but most of the time) date their partners for some time before losing their virginity and that bond is already present before sex. To bond with your partner you need to connect on many other levels and spend a significant amount of time together. That's just some dumb attempt to simplify human relationships that has nothing even to do with actual science.

Stargazer1919 · 2020-08-08T12:14:38+00:00

It's a made up excuse for redpill and blackpill guys to fantasize about virgin women.

If it were true, why aren't women talking about it? We talk about our periods all the time.

Bjay_jw · 2020-08-08T12:09:47+00:00

As a female sex will never make me attached to someone I don't already have strong* feelings for.

Maxlu96 · 2020-08-08T11:25:58+00:00

As often with red pill theories, the borders between science and opinion are very fluent in his post. You cant on the one hand talk about hormones and the central nervous system regulating them, and then on the other hand talk about "receptors burning out" (which is not an actual biological process) or make arguments based on things "anyone who has bedded a virgin can attest to". Mixing types of arguments (in this case scientific and anecdotal) will always weaken your point. Especially with weak anecdotal ones (most virginities are taken in a context of love well-existent before sex).

As far as your relatinship is concerned, I understand the pressure it puts on you. Having such an experienced girlfriend is intimidating if you are not as experienced yourself. I understand it makes you prone to "alpha fucks, beta bux" ideologies, but at the end of it you have to ask yourself if you trust her. If this count of men arose during a time long ago or during periods where she specifically didnt want a serious relationship, you have to ask yourself if you are morally complicit with this and if you are, there is no problem at all. If it occured in the context of cheating, she might simply not be that good of a person in the first place, and the issue arises from her morals and not her "body count".

TheMadWoodcutter · 2020-08-08T11:28:34+00:00

What we have here is called pseudoscience. It takes a little bit of real truth extrapolates it way beyond what makes sense or is reasonable. If you were to speak to somebody who genuinely understands neuroscience they would tell you that it doesn’t really work like that at all. What you’ve done here is twist the facts to fit a pre determined conclusion rather than actually examining all available evidence.

Anecdotally, my wife and I both have counts in the mid 20’s and there is zero evidence that either she or I have struggled to pair bond. Rather the opposite really.

In fact, in the real world, inability to pair bond is associated with emotional trauma (abuse and or abandonment) rather than what you’ve suggested here. However, can you think of one other behaviour that might likely be associated with abuse and abandonment? You guessed it, reckless promiscuity.

By the way, the red pill is wholly designed to take advantage of and further victimize women with existing unprocessed emotional trauma. It simply doesn’t work on women with heathy coping mechanisms or strong emotional support systems.

jamesreadingameme · 2020-08-08T11:24:39+00:00

r/badwomensanatomy

2020-08-08T12:09:40+00:00

It's normal to feel anxious for these kinds of things in a relationship. Redpill dude will look at stats, graphs and facts to jusitify his feelings on the issue while not working on them or even communicate with his partner, building resentment all the while. The kind that actually leads to breakup. This has nothing to do with science. Those guys are just wasting the little bit of happiness they can have with someone by focusing on issues that only matter to lonely people.

Stargazer1919 · 2020-08-08T13:32:46+00:00

[deleted]

tripleundone · 2020-08-08T13:27:51+00:00

Oxytocin and neuroreceptors in general do not work like this. Damage to the neuroreceptor doesn’t occur from overuse because they’re on-off. They can either have a neurotransmitter on them or not. They can be damaged if somehow the wrong neurotransmitter is jammed into them the wrong way, such as with overuse of certain amphetamines, but an oxytocin receptor is not going to be damaged by receiving oxytocin under normal circumstances.

Orgasm is a neurological event. The maximum amplitude, and therefore strength, of orgasm is going to depend on internal and psychological factors that have nothing to do with the number of experiences she’s had. In my own experience, attaining orgasm is a skill. The more you practice it the better you get at it. So in all likelihood, the more skilled she is at attaining orgasm herself, the better she will be at assisting other people in assisting her having one.

Anyways you can always get better at sex. So much of it is psychological and has to do with feeling comfortable and unselfconscious. Look at some of the techniques sex therapists have if you’re interested.

Many women have trouble attaining orgasm at all. My ex had fucked I think 56 guys before me; I think I had sex with like 24 different people before her. I was only the 5th person in her life other than herself to get her to orgasm without her doing the work.

Also, orgasm isn’t the end-all be-all. Most of sex should be focused on other things and I would argue shouldn’t be penetrative at all. I focused on it here because I feel like the discussion we’re having here is about peak pleasure, not just whether you can make her feel anything at all.

Touch is powerful my dude. Most women have never been touched by anyone with even a vague understanding of neuromuscular interactions with the brain or the meridians along which they are focally distributed.

LauraMcCabeMoon · 2020-08-08T13:37:19+00:00

As a woman I just want to chime in a few things.

The first thing I'd allege is that BAD sex releases little to no oxytocin and arguably leaves a woman in a worse state than she started in. And despite popular opinion or what most people prefer to think, BAD sex is by far the norm, especially for most younger women.

Can younger women experience positive sex? Sure, but the experience of subpar sex and poor results is far and away more common. Ask any set of 15-20 women who are age 35+ and if they answer honestly they will laugh out loud about how shitty the sex was when they were young, and why on god's green earth they ever tolerated that.

Can women 'bond' to results of crap sex? Sure, but some guys also bond to controlling or insecure girls who treat them like shit, so.

Let's not generalize across all women based on the ones who 'bond' to crap performance, just like no man wants men to be generalized based on the ones that bond to immature, controlling women.

In both cases you can look at the results as having far more to do with that individual's family background, personal insecurities and other blind spots. Let's afford 50% of humanity the basic conceptual respect that bonding to shit partners is a personal problem and not descriptive of their entire gender, the same as we prefer to afford the other 50%.

Second, the whole discussion is very animal-like and determinative in nature. It's as if the woman herself is the victim of her hormones or her oxytocin like a cow or a monkey and has no agency or free will, which is what marks human beings.

This I would argue is part of the hidden thesis of red pill. Women are essentially determinants of their animal responses whereas men alone possess free will. I mean that's not even hidden in what some of these guys say.

Does one seriously believe that? Does one really seriously honestly deep down truly believe that? In a bird's eye view across the depth of human history and human achievement? That men alone possess metacognition and the free will which demarcates human beings from the animal kingdom?

(Now we can get into a big discussion about the illusion of free will within certain philosophical perspectives but thats whataboutism and goes beyond the scope of this discussion. Anyone can understand the everyday sense of what I mean by "free will" here.)

Finally, even if women were victims of biological determination every dang time they had sex, regardless of the quality of the sexual encounter, what about women who have a high so-called body count but still bond like crazy to their sexual partners? Or women who have almost no body count and could care less about so-called bonding? Are these women merely aberrations or perversions of women's essential animalistic nature? Or are women, I dunno, individuals experiencing the world much the same way as men do, through a prism of their individual life experiences, beliefs and biases, and needs and flaws?

Believe me women can talk about men in really offensive and supercilious ways. I don't know how many times growing up I heard the phrase, "The route to a man's heart is through his stomach." As if men are animals whose emotional responses are nothing more and little less than determined by the food they will shit out in a few hours. Put it that way and it's not just a cute homey saying, it's kind of gross and offensive. Especially with the understanding that the phrase implies men can be manipulated or controlled in such a way. Where is the man's free will? Or is he just an animal. Doesn't sit well does it.

zoemondo · 2020-08-08T11:19:15+00:00

I'd be happy to clarify it for you: it's fucking stupid. Forget about it.

illfuckwiththat · 2020-08-08T13:56:24+00:00

You’ve gotten lots of great advice here and I don’t want to repeat it. I just want to say - as a woman who has had about 50 sexual partners - I spent 3 years dating with the intent of pursuing a relationship, but the vast majority of the men I slept with played me/ghosted me. While I never felt extremely “bonded” to them, it did hurt to feel used. I also want to point out that I’ve never cheated on a partner and never would, so a higher N-count does not necessarily imply cheating. Another reason for my number is my age (late 30s). Between more years spent single and dating and seeking out sex regularly due to my high libido, I’ve come across quite a few men in that context.

My current partner has had about 1/5 the partners I’ve had, and he’s the best by far. It didn’t start out that way, but he kept asking me questions about what feels good and would not quit pleasing me until I had an orgasm - his genuine care for me makes him my best partner ever and I would not even consider trading him for any or all my past partners. And I am certainly able of bonding strongly to him - he’s my world and I never stop trying to make him happy.

Your gf probably feels the same way about you, so take it for the compliment it is that she chooses you over everyone else in her past and present.

Stargazer1919 · 2020-08-08T13:57:42+00:00

I'm back to comment again because I had a few more thoughts about this.

I'm not a scientist, researcher, doctor, or any sort of Healthcare worker. I'm simply someone who is very fond of science and I have a lot of respect for people who do research. I've taken many college level science classes, and I'm just going to explain here what I took away from them and how I will apply it to this topic:

These redpill and blackpill guys will find a study that supports their preconceived ideas. You shouldn't go looking for answers to your preconceived ideas. You should be open to criticism and new ideas. One study is not going to prove a hypothesis. There's a lot of human error and bias that can make a study questionable or invalid. A hypothesis has to undergo many tests before it can be labeled a theory.

A good scientist or doctor is going to welcome questions and criticism about their studies and their practices. Notice how if you start questioning these RP/BP guys about any studies they mention, they get offended and defensive. It's a sign that something might be off about these studies and ideas of theirs. It's a sign that they have some sort of agenda or bias that they are clinging to.

If a theory is true to the best that we can tell, then it should be able to withstand criticism all day. Not crumble at the first question or contradicting evidence you throw at it.

Besides, even if these ideas are true, science does not have any opinion on morality. People can twist any scientific idea to fit their own agenda. If there was any sort of proven theory about females and their virginity, it doesn't mean it should suggest that women be valued for their virginity.

awwhorsefeathers · 2020-08-08T14:07:01+00:00

I would loosen up a little before this starts causing problems. Good relationships aren’t researched, they are felt. Getting neurotic about things is a great way to run someone off.

Id Never ask body count again, it rarely does either party any good and it’s just one more way to suck the magic out of a relationship.

OnkelMickwald · 2020-08-08T15:43:55+00:00

Why doesn't redpillers talk about how promiscuity affects the male brain? If anything, it seems to me (anecdotally) that men are far more open for temporary sexual liaisons whereas women tend towards more permanent arrangements (FWB, boyfriend, etc.)

RedPillDetox · 2020-08-08T19:34:31+00:00

I'm sorry, but once again this is a "non-argument".

Once again, people pull just-so stories out of their arses based on some basic understanding of some pop science and act as if they own the truth.

Let me start by pointing the obvious elephant in the room and ask: Where is the experimental evidence that measured women oxytocin levels after fucking new partners and concluded that it affected their pair bonding abilities on the long term? Either they provide replicated peer reviewed studies/meta-analysis or stfu.

It's not that the idea that people with more partners are affected negatively in terms of pair bonding isn't sound. It makes sense, and that's why people believe it. But it also makes sense that the sun orbitates the earth or that the sun is a big fireball in the sky and yet both these things are not true.

In particular, if they're talking hormones and science then they should just provide the actual studies. Which they don't. Because most likely there is none.

Just a quick search on google already showed that Oxytocin research has been all over the place. For example, 7 studies failed to replicate Oxytocin's effect on trust increase, which makes me only wonder if it's indeed a "love hormone" in the first place.

Admit it, guys, only reason why red pill comes up with these superficial arguments it's because they are trying to find excuses to justify rationally rejecting promiscuous women. Guys, if you find promiscuous women eeky then don't date them. You don't have to find excuses to justify rejecting them. Just admit that they make you uncomfortable for no good reason other than your emotionality. No shame about it. It's your preference... Gee...

Fuzzy-Scene · 2020-08-08T14:23:11+00:00

If you honestly want to know the truth about this subject then you need to read "Why Love Matters how affection shapes a babies brain - Sue Gerhardt".

Pair bonding really begins in the womb and infancy. Up to the age of 3, each person is creating neural networks and synapses in the brain to the amygdala. In there it tells you exactly how we bond with others and if certain aspects of love and attention in infancy is absent how it can be more challenging. These are based around trauma as babies that are separated from their mothers cause shock/trauma and how the infant creates neural networks to help them survive.

Emotional intelligence also has a bearing on a persons ability to pair bond. I've just started to read a book on that and there is a direct correlation with upbringing that affects this.

The trouble with the red pill is they suffer from huge egotistical delusions and so that they think they know everything despite never having read a book on the subject they preach. They talk about self-improvement yet never go down the path of proper academic research.

BlueAscetic · 2020-08-08T16:11:28+00:00

I didn’t read all of it, but he’s making claims for all women. Yes, some women will connect with their “first” but since many women also break up with, are broken up with, or just somehow move on from their “first” that disproves his point.

Second, if you study science at all, there is an average amount of the population who lean towards one outcome, but never 100% of such a large population as the entirety of women.

I’m a woman and left my “first” boyfriend who took my virginity after 4 months. Sex for me did not equate lasting love. In my sexual encounters I’ve felt a variety of things for the men I’ve had sex with for the first time, ranging from indifference to intense like. Usually how I felt about him overall determined if I continued or pursued the relationship after the actual sex.

Yes I think if the part about oxytocin and sex are true, then women are “supposed to” bond with the men they have sex with. But then his reasoning reaches quite a bit to its conclusion.

Women are human beings with a brain. We have a new thing called a prefrontal cortex, which can sometimes override our emotions, depending on how we’ve learned and trained ourselves over the years. There’s also the subconscious, emotional part of all humans (not just women) that influences our decisions, both with and without our awareness. Therapy and meditation, self reflection aim to counter the potentially self sabotage these underlying impulses can cause.

If a woman chooses to have sex with multiple men, that is something going on with her culture, how she was raised, her self identity, her belief system, morality system, etc. same for if she cheats on a partner.

When he says “problem is after a certain number of partners that ability goes away” where is the scientific evidence of this broad claim? That’s like me saying that because men have shown greater capacity in visuospatial tests they will always like video games and sports. (Researchers don’t actually know the cause of this, there are a couple different theories ranging from evolution to video games)

So, while some things in this might be true, you can’t take one fact and attribute it to an entire theory. There are many different factors involved in promiscuity. What about promiscuity for men? Or gay people? Or Trans people, or non-cis gendered people? Humans are not ALL naturally monogamous, some of us are more monogamous than others and it’s not determined by our gender.

I think you are looking for an answer of how a woman who has had multiple partners will bond with you. The answer is, we usually choose our partners and bond with them based on emotional factors, smell, and patterns. It’s pretty popular these days that both men and women choose partners based on what they need, mentally and emotionally, to heal. Or they look for partners who have characteristics or traits of their primary caregivers, the ones who have them the most difficulty. Or whatever feels familiar. If a woman grows up with a good family and she feels secure, she’s more likely to find a partner she feels secure with. But that can also vary. And as I said above, people vary in their monogamy. Unfortunately you don’t know if a woman will cheat on you or leave you, same as that woman doesn’t know you will be eternally faithful.

If you have an issue with your girlfriends sexual number, that’s understandable, I think 33 is pretty high. But, not because she will cheat, but rather why did she have sex with so many people? Was it because of past trauma or abuse? That is what I’d be more concerned about than her having sex with multiple people. Sex is purely physical, and if she loves you I’m sure she gets a much greater “high” from sex with you and would not feel that with another partner. It sounds like you could also work through your anxiety of abandonment and your gf cheating. I’ve felt that anxiety in all my relationships and still do, but it’s gotten a lot better after a few years of struggle.

medlabunicorn · 2020-08-08T17:20:20+00:00

There is no data to support the assertion that many sexual partners affects a woman’s ability to pair bond. If there is any association, the causality link is almost certainly in the opposite direction: women with low levels of oxytocin will be more likely to have more partners and less likely to strongly pair bond, and women with high levels will tend to become very attached to a single, or a few, individuals.

144throwaway144 · 2020-08-08T23:43:17+00:00

[deleted]

2020-08-09T14:27:24+00:00

Complete bullshit. First of all, truth is that women don’t even enjoy sex with most men until they learn about their own pleasure. For virgin women, first sex is a disappointment in a best case scenario, and a painful experience in worst.

Besides, most men really suck in bed so it’s a bold claim that women have this secret pleasure hormone after a shitty 45 seconds of jackhammering. You guys seriously overestimate the effect of your penises on women

As for promiscuity, which isn’t the most healthy thing, it happens for various reasons. Some women do it because they can genuinely get pleasure from sex with different partners. Some seek validation due to trauma, some want to learn more about sex and their bodies and so on. It’s so reductionist to claim all these women cannot bond with their partner. And by this logic, promiscuous men cannot bond with partners too.

Life is much more complex than shitty sexist red pill assumptions that misrepresent already flawed studies.

thetruthishere_ · 2020-08-08T11:50:07+00:00

The ability will lessen if one jumps man to man. If people take time between partners they can bond.

Bonding is not just a women thing either, its a human thing. It just can hit women more.

Bonding is way more than sex too. These guys want to play like its just sex when its not.

Ive bonded with every long term partner Ive had. I took the time between partners. Also I don't even think about the man I lost my virginity to at all. We lost it together but didnt even stay together.

Ive been with more than one partner and have never cheated. Even if I got bored, etc, Id break up with him not cheat.

People who cheat I think has very little to do with actual pair bonding, its about their moral values/'damage' from trauma.

If is was just about pair bonding virgins wouldn't get divorced or ever cheat and they do.

Title	Promiscuity and pair bonding
Author	reptilianmariano
Upvotes	13
Comments	48
Date	August 8, 2020 11:12 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/ExRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/exredpill/comments/i5xfdu/promiscuity_and_pair_bonding/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/ExRedPill/promiscuity-and-pair-bonding.722593 https://theredarchive.com/post/722593

Comments