Religions?

SundanceDog · 2020-10-15T12:13:48+00:00

I think this is a great question! As other commenters have mentioned, misogyny is pretty universal. Also, each community is unique and has its own pluses and minuses. Please note that these are my own opinions and experiences and may not reflect everyone else's. 😊

I was raised Evangelical Christian. I grew up listening to Joyce Meyers, T.D. Jakes, Joel Osteen, and Charles Stanley. Maybe it was just me, but I felt a lot of guilt and confusion as a young girl. I felt like God was punishing me with being female. I got my first period when I was nine years old. For years I had long, painful periods (like,10 days long) and a three week cycle. This was the Curse of Eve and maybe I deserved it. This isn't what I was taught, to be clear, but it's what I felt. I attended a Christian school for a year. I hated that I couldn't dress the way I wanted to without being accused of distracting the boys or "causing men to sin in their hearts." For most of my teenage years, I was an atheist.

About three years ago, I did a complete 180. Why, you may ask? I happened across an article about a Chasidic couple who survived a hurricane by hiding in a mikvah. I started reading about Judaism, and a lot of my questions about the "old testament" started to make a lot more sense. I loved how there was no devil out to tempt humans, but only a benevolent God who delighted in rewarding us for our good behavior. I loved the endless deep discussions about the law and what it meant. God seemed to be everywhere. I discovered that modesty helped combat the insidious male gaze. Women seemed to be happy and cherished. Still, many questions lingered: Why does the Woman of Valor have to work so hard so that her husband can study Torah? Can't she get a break to learn, too? Why was it that only women were subjected to a grueling, humiliating, and often deadly test when their husbands accused them of cheating? Why are two men more reliable witnesses than two women? Why are women discouraged from learning Gemara?

Nowadays, I feel very ambivalent towards religion. Sorry this was such a long post.

SilkyPurpleFlowers · 2020-10-15T12:11:33+00:00

Be careful. Truth is considered hate speech these days.....

honeybeeroll · 2020-10-15T17:05:39+00:00

I think a lot of women on FDS aren't comfortable with religion because they grew up in a situation where religion was used as a means to abuse and subjugate women. Your post indicates that, and I have heard other muslim women say the same. I've also heard other Muslim women express a lot of love for their religion. I've never read the Quran so I do not want to overly criticize or praise, BUT the fact that Mohammed did have multiple wives and was engaged to a child is alarming, and I'm not sure how practicing Muslims reconcile that. And it's the kind of thing that I could see easily being used to justify child marriage.

I'm Christian and it's the same thing, some women hate it because it was used against them, others find the religion protects them. Actually there was a post made to this sub recently, a woman whose ex was a very devout "Christian" and used it against her. Her whole upbringing was like that actually, the churches she went to, it was all anti women. Then she actually read the Bible. And realized what her husband and church was saying was all warped and fucked up. Reading the Bible helped her find value in herself. I am Christian but went to catholic school for 12 years, and yet can count on one hand how many times I opened a Bible there lol. I believe many Christian churches (especially catholicism lol) don't want you to read the Bible yourself, they want you to listen to their religious leaders' interpretation, because when you actually take the time to read it, their version falls apart right away.

FDS is pro respecting and valuing yourself, setting boundaries that protect your dignity and demand respect, sticking to those boundaries especially with men, and pro just not being a pickme. If you have looked closely at a religion and decided it will help you do those things, then that's great. If it doesn't, then it would be pro FDS to remove yourself from that religion.

fim_de_semana · 2020-10-15T11:14:27+00:00

I have a Saudi friend…the stuff she puts up with with a smile breaks my heart :/

ello-motto · 2020-10-15T12:51:30+00:00

FDS is full of women from all cultures, beliefs and religions.

Our rules are secular and can be applied to everyone.

However, we do have a flair called "Social Group Theory" and this is where you can get FDS type of advice that caters to the religion or culture you're raised in.

We've had some excellent threads before on discussing dating and applying FDS in the desi community, and I think I've seen an Islam one as well.

Shinygoldendragonfly · 2020-10-15T16:00:44+00:00

Ive actually been waiting to write on this. So buckle up.To all the people defending Abrahamic religions please stop it, I'm hoping FDS takes a proper stance opposing them. Especially Islam I am one who has read in great detail and have experienced it. Growing up I was extremely religious my whole family is, my family even does dawah(teaching Islam to convert people). I have left islam for the main reason of it being highly misogynistic, even if you look from a logical standpoint. These are some of the issues I've bought up purely on the religion excluding culture. I'm sure I've missed plenty.

Most common one the prophet had 11 wives and Aisha was 6 when they got engaged. Muslims argue that the times were different and it was common. I feel no one should be married until their prefrontal cortex develops atleast 24 to 25.

A woman's role and rights come only in connection to a man (fatherbrother/son/husband/uncle). You need their guardianship to go out.

There is no blessing in the money you earn as a woman if spend on your family.

A parent can give off yes their prepubescent child(yes even 4 years of age) hand in marriage and consent for her.

An adult woman can say no to her marriage but if she says nothing at all its a yes.

There is no such thing as marital rape in Islam. You can lightly beat your wife if she disagrees with you(btw you can't beat the man) again each scholar brings out a different interpretation of this. The angels curse you all night if you say no to your husbands request for sex and he falls asleep angry with you.

A woman witness is half a man witness (the reasoning women are more emotional).

Female sex slaves are allowed in islam. If conquered they still are under the positioning of a wife.

Marrying multiple woman is permitted but not the other way around (reasoning- more female than male population again this is false a quick Google search will tell you and another reasoning they give is its more logical since paternity disputes. Which is bs in todays age where paternity testing can be done (95-99% accuracy). I can say this as a medical student. What about India where men:women ratio is skewed because of female infanticides should woman have multiple husbands???. Its not permitted. What happened to the times were different we should adapt concept now.

Cousin marriages are permitted which has led to many inbred children being born with mental disabilities and genetic deformaties in the UK among pakiMuslims.

A woman if raped by God's standpoint it does matter what she wore that day.

A woman should and it is an obligation to cover your whole body except for face hands and feet. Itd be more honorable if she covered face but not mandatory. To all the Liberal muslims stop saying its her choice its not. Its not a choice when you have to choose between burning in hell or people in your community shaming you for it.

It is preferred for woman to stay at home. A woman cannot lead a congregation to prayer for both the genders.

If you adopt a female child and don't nurse her then your husband isn't her real father. And she should cover herself in front of him. Same with if you haven't nursed the adopted boy you have to cover yourself infront of him.

There is no female prophet. The prophets first wife even though yes a business woman her success was only because she started her work before converting to islam. She was a pagan Arab before. As for Aisha the last wife yes she did rule and it is common consensus that she did a poor job and an example as to why woman shouldn't involve in such matters. She is hated deeply by the Shia sect.

Even infront of your family (male or female)as a woman you have to maintain a dress code which is from the bossoms to below your knee. For men it is just the navel to above the knee.

A woman is considered impure to touch the holy book when she is menstruating. She can't pray because of which her good deeds during that time are lost.

I'm sure most of you are well versed with the divorce aspect of all this. Men can easily divorce their woman. Its much more difficult for a woman to leave a man.

My personal view- I grew up extremely religious and into an Indian Muslim family. No matter what I did I was never good enough compared to my brother. There was always unfair treatment and I'm sure it wouldn't have reached this extent had it not been for religion. When I was a teen I spent most of my years reading into the religion because I never felt God was there for me things always felt not right deep down no matter how much I believed. Because I feared hell so much i did a ton of research each time coming back each time disappointed. The more I read the more it felt off. Until I told myself enough is enough I'm in my early twenties now and not a Muslim still live with my family a medical student so no other choice. There were times in my life where I hadn't left the house, maybe once a year for 4 to 5 years. Thats mostly to do with how strict it is. Things have changed now but I've had to make it that way with lots of work on my part. My whole family has become a mess me being the only level headed one. They are so brainwashed I was terrified of them as a kid but now there is only pity because I understand. We all try to fill that void and some do it with religion. To all the Liberal feminist Muslims please stop you havent dealt with the real islam the islam that is in the Quran and hadith you just cherry pick what you like and interpret what you want because yes this book can be twisted in any way you want to even the top scholars know that. The most violent and anxious I've seen my family is when they go deeper into the religion. All I want to say is I really really hope FDS opposes the religions teachings.

Edit:- I forgot the setting stone, the one that really made me think islam was made up by a man. A man when enters paradise gets the pleasure of having 72 virgin hoors (beautiful transparent big breasted woman) but also the permission to have sex with them despite having wives. You may now ask I'm sure the pious wives get 72 virgin men WRONG. They get to be the most beautiful women that when the husband looks at her it'll take an eternity to blink because she will have that much of a glow. Imagine being just that object even in the afterlife, I think I'd pass bye👋.

2020-10-15T18:46:22+00:00

Abrahamic religions have time and time again proven to backdoor avenues for men to dominate women by brainwashing them. Even "progressive" versions of these religions sprung from a long history of deeply shaming women for their sexuality, their bodies, their desire for independence and they spiritually rewarding women for subservience. This is a clear ploy to turn women against each other. A means to get women, even young girls, to feel guilt about themselves. It tells women they must turn to man for guidance on all moral and spiritual matters. Dating men in a western society is hard enough. Imagine if you were lead to believe these misogynistic men were the way to earn redemption and be close to god?

Fuck that.

But Islamic societies are particularly egregious because they participate in this oppression significantly and openly because they are not criticized in the same way western religions can be.

straighthairgreece · 2020-10-15T19:12:52+00:00

Yes I'm an Ex-Muslim myself and one of the first things that turned me off about liberals ( the "woke" ones at least) was their refusall to criticize Islam and it's role in misogyny.

It's also funny how liberals defend women's right and gay rights along side Islam while not realising that Islam is extremely homophobic and misogynistic. Most of these lib fems wouldn't even survive in a truly Islamic state. The ignorance and hyprocrisy disgust me to the core. They care more about virtue-signalling and not appearing "racist" ( how the fuck is one racist against a religion?) Than the rights of women or gays.

AdmiralRando · 2020-10-15T17:26:39+00:00

I was raised evangelical Christian. I was as conservative as you can get in the US while still being allowed to wear pants. When my husband started waving a gun at me, I was told to pray for him. I was told how I should fix the problem.

When I finally got angry/smart enough to make him an ex-husband, I dropped off all of my other abusive relationships, too. That includes my “relationship” with god.

I tried looking at other forms of Christianity and other religions as well. But I never could find one that simply considers me a person. Not a lesser or weaker person, just a regular-ass person. That’s the low bar that no major religion can clear.

To put that in FDS terms: I’m not willing to make excuses for god any more than I’m willing to make excuses for men. He’s got my number if he feels like putting in an effort.

2020-10-15T16:03:29+00:00

I stated that Islam is a red flag to me when meeting guys and this is based on experience and the community here downvoted me, so be careful! People don't like it if you say the truth, that Muslims do not see women as human beings. More so animal like in terms of consciousness. Basically, no monogamy, no respect, best keep your mouth shut until you die and be covered completely.

straighthairgreece · 2020-10-15T11:17:58+00:00

[deleted]

reina_nova · 2020-10-15T15:56:33+00:00

At the risk of getting downvoted, I'll admit that out of the world's major religions, Islam takes the cake when it comes to oppressing of women. Of course, Christianity is also problematic in some ways, but we do women worldwide a disservice if we ignore the horrific treatment of women under the Muslim religion. I work at a place where we interact with people of many different countries, and it is from the Muslim women that I have heard horror stories. One young girl, about seventeen years old, told me that she is engaged to her abusive, controlling, possibly cheating fiancé because she thought getting engaged would mean she could have more freedom under her controlling father. (Obviously that strategy backfired because her fiancé is even more controlling.) Apparently, her trash father and fiancé would get angry when she went to school alone. She has no money to escape her situation, and her schedule is controlled by the men in her life. On another occasion, another Muslim woman told me she can't go to the gym because her husband forbids her. Those are just some of the stories I have heard. For anyone interested, I really recommend Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book Infidel. The life events she recounts in that book are horrifying, and her story of escape is quite touching. She's definitely a HVW.

empresselevation · 2020-10-15T17:39:50+00:00

I am in agreement with you, OP. I cannot speak to the experience of being Muslim as I am not someone who follows Islam but as an individual who has voraciously studied Abrahamic religions out of curiosity, I think it is very hard to reconcile the misogyny expressed in these religions with the principles that are held by FDS. People will participate in cognitive dissonance due to their inability to want to unravel a lot of indoctrination that has occurred, usually without them even realizing. People will cherry-pick constantly to support their view instead of examining things objectively. It's scary to challenge the idea that the foundation on which you were raised is actually abusive and harmful. That's why I think liberal realms of these religions exist - to soften the blow of an evidently misogynistic text.
Having said this, I still believe that above all, FDS fights for a woman's choice by empowering her to see her own worth. If she is empowered and on a constant self-development journey, her choices will reflect that to serve her and hopefully to uplift other women around her as well. If that choice contains religion, be it a liberal, cherry-picked, watered down, "modernized" version, she has that choice. In my opinion, it is how she uses that religion to impact herself, but even more importantly, how she uses that religion to impact girls and women around her that matters most.

Chammalia · 2020-10-15T13:01:14+00:00

As a religious woman, FDS'er and as someone who has studied religion at the University. This us my thoughts:

We can't really tell you what religion to believe in, as it is a personal choice. What you should really do is research lots of different religions. Probably start out by asking yourself a couple questions:

What do you believe in? Here, you should ask yourself several different questions like deities, what happens when you die, etc. You could use one of those online tests "what religion fits me?", as they ask a lot of these questions. Don't take the test result too seriously, as it might not be correct. But you can use it to explore new religions you didn't know off.
Do you feel like you need to have a religion, because you have beliefs in a deity etc., or because you were raised to believe you need a religion, or do you have a feeling deep down that you don't belong in the religion forced on you?
Would it be safe for you right now in your current situation to remove yourself from your religion and start searching for a new one? If not, you need to get to a safe place before you start that process.

Also, I gotta say, in general, it's not the religion itself that is the problem, but it's extremist practitioners. If you walk into a religious setting and they're abusive and manipulative etc., you walk out of there again. Do not accept behaviour from people that are abusive or otherwise not safe for you. People that try to force you to buy stuff to become a member of their religion or pressure you to get involved, etc.

Stay away from cults like Scientology and Jehovas witnesses.

There are safe and empowering religions out there, but you need to find the right fit for you.

Ta7founa · 2020-10-15T20:46:00+00:00

I don't see the point in getting religions involved. Because :

1) culture, économie, history and the population's level of education à lot more play à bigger part in how every country/family/person applies the same religion. I live in a Muslim country. Most don't wear the hijab, polygamy is illegal, all kinds of rape are illegal, women are legally equal to men. We practice Islam in a different way from say Egypt or Saudi arabia.

By a general rule of thumb, a poor economy + a dictatorship regime + low levels of education will result in an unequal, unjust society. And women due to their physical attributes and due to how most cultures are inherently misogynistic always will get the burnt of it. Misogynists will use religion, nature, science whatever is available to give their actions validation.

2) there are many Muslim HV women who live fulfilling lifes and know how to use their culture/religion to their advantage. And even if a person does not believe in their country's culture/religion they still have to play the field according to the rules imposed by them. That's just commun sense. There are many Muslim FDS members which can give advice to other newcomers who share the same cultural makeup/ or even people that don't believe in those religions living in such cultures on how to get the best out of it and manage well, so if FDS takes the stance to reject abrahamic religions, many of these members will be alienated and they will most likely leave. Hence even the ex-religious will lose out on priceless advice.

3) if FDS decides to take a stance against religions this will also make any interested new members who believe in a religion or are passionate about respecting religions (whether you personally agree with this or not) and who might even NEED FDS avoid it instead. Which doesn't serve the greater good at all.

4) FDS is about giving women realistic, practical and no nonsense daiting strategies and leveling up. The handbook is a general guide and can be applied by women from different backgrounds/cultures/ethnicities/religions etc. It works great this way, so why add the mess that is religion into it? It is unnecessary and presents no benefit.

balladwilds · 2020-10-15T11:16:21+00:00

there are many muslim women on this sub. i don't see how or why would fds be anti religion

LaVerae · 2020-10-15T13:10:25+00:00

Interesting topic.

Frankly - I generally agree with you. Islam is definitely not feminism. I think Islam is probably the worst religion I know. I base my opinion on the content of Quran, life of prophet Muhammad and the laws, overall culture and life quality in most Muslim countries. The thing is, in this world you can't say some things or else you get called labeled as something "-phobic" or some form of "-ist". Even when talking about ideas and ideologies, like islam. I know that there are good Muslim people and bad Muslim people. I agree that no one should attack other people just for being Muslim or any other religion, but we should be able to discuss and point out things in religions that are bad.

However, no religion is not a cure to the problems either. I'm from a European catholic country and you can observe how the people who are on the left (especially far-left) are so anti-catholic and anti-christianity often to the point of fanatic obsession. (Or the fact that the liberal feminists often turn to paganism, wicca or some witches shit - just shows that even the "not religious" people still have some sort of religion.) The modern Western world, even without the religion, still has their own set of rules and beliefs. The liberal feminism in itself can become a religion for some people.

Sashamorningmidnight · 2020-10-15T21:19:28+00:00

Here on FDS we talk a lot about making choices.

If you are a woman born into the Muslim religion, your choices are limited. It's as simple as that.

If you are a Muslim woman and you are allowed to choose, you are in a very privileged position.

The backlash the OP has received from several posters offers a tiny window into the lives of Muslim women who dare to question.

I have read the Quran, studied the Hadith and I read many interpretations of the text. I completed my Masters dissertation on Women in Islam. You can CHOOSE to believe the interpretation that resonants with you.

If you practice Islam, find peace and solace in your faith then great, it works for you.

I CHOOSE not to believe the man in the sky because my life experiences have taught me that Islam offers me nothing.

Just another male entity demanding I behave in a certain way with no benefits to me at all.

asteria2002 · 2020-10-15T15:48:38+00:00

You can wear hijab if you want of course. In the Netherlands they want to ban hijab (of course it doesn't happen now but some in the government want it) I as a exmuslim am against it, because it is just stripping away women from freedom. Other than that, if you aren't Muslim or don't want to be Muslim I would say feel free to reject it. Islam is extremely misogynistic and sadly majority of the people will attack you for speaking the truth. If you don't believe in allah existing by all means reject it, it isn't good for you and will never be. But please be safe you may e killed in "honer killing".

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squaremarshmallow · 2020-10-15T15:55:49+00:00

I'm grateful for this question. It's not discussed enough because of obvious reasons but personal religious beliefs shape peoples lives like nothing else. I grew up evangelical Christian, with a lot of added cultural aspects. I've long since dropped a lot of the beliefs preached by christianity and organized religion and moved on to pursuing spirituality because there are a lot of harmful christain beliefs that I think can stand in the way of any human beings well being, particularly women. Some of those beliefs are:

1) Original sin - everyone is guilty even before they were born and must accept Jesus and live to certain standards to not be guilty. Believing this made me constantly think I was a bad person, no matter what I did.

2) Belief in Hell: The idea that someone who claims to love you will send you to fry in hell for eternity if you "sinned" before dying is sociopathic at the very least. This belief made me live in constant fear and depression that I would eventually end up in hell because not sinning is basically impossible.

3) Beliefs around marriage- I come from a specific side of christianity where they idolize marriage and families. Single people (mostly women) are encouraged to pray that God will send them their husband, who must be a Christian, preferably from the same church and denomination. Being single in my church means that God has not answered your prayer yet either because you haven't prayed enough or do not have enough faith or you are being to picky. Even our Pastor preached many times against women being too picky and staying single for long. Guys in church took advantage of this and would act like the single women in church owned them a chance. Being single in my church carries shame with it, at least for the single women because it shows that your prayers have not been answered or you have been too picky for your own good. This belief left me feeling like I had to get married soon to shake of the "shame" of being single.

4) Wives should be submissive- This one is preached constantly at my church. This belief is harmful because only a low value man will ever demand submission from a woman or any human being for that matter.

5) Adam and Eve- The creation story basically claims that sin came to the world thanks to Eve and women were cursed to have pain in childbirth and also be under the man. I don't even need to explain why this is a harmful beliefs.

Also the creation story makes it look like women were created for men, because Eve was made to be a "helper" for Adam. Believing this basically says that the purpose of women is for men.

6) Womens place in church and ministry- churches differ on this one but there are many churches that believe that women should not preach because Apostle Paul said that women should be quite in church. My church doesn't allow women to do any teaching from the altar. They only sing. Women don't get to be Pastors ever at my church and this is true for many churches. Women don't even get to sit in the very front rows at my church because they can't be trusted to sit properly and not distract the men.

8) God hates Divorce- This belief has kept many women in bad marriages because they don't want to sin against God. Even in cases of infidelity and abuse, I have seen Pastors tell women to not divorce because God hates divorce. My own Pastor told the church that women should call him if the man is beating her instead of the police so that the cases of men going to jail in my church will reduce. My own mother is still in a marriage with a man who has threatened to kill her and kill himself because God hates divorce and she doesn't want to go to hell.

Some Christians will give the excuse that not all churches believe this and try to reframe or provide different interpretations of the beliefs I mentioned above but it doesn't matter because there are millions of people who believe these things, many of them women. So it doesn't matter how you see it differently. The point I am making here is that specifically for the Christian religion evangelical denomination there are many harmful beliefs that are preached. Even if you weren't harmed by the beliefs, they have harmed someone. Am I saying don't be a Christian? No. I myself still identify as Christian because I admire Jesus. I just don't like the rest of it and am able to accept that the many aspects of the way christianity practiced is harmful to women and I think a woman practicing fds should be brave enough to examine the things she believes and determine which ones are harmful to her.

sahu_ · 2020-10-15T17:45:01+00:00

For me, in Hindu culture, if a man is overly religious, it's a big red flag. They tend to care more about looking like they're doing all the rituals instead of taking care of their family.

Over the years I have realized, men's affinity to spirituality and God only grows as they grow older .and they use it as an escape to neglect their family responsibilities. Or as a means to oppress their wives.

Having never had a positive experience with my own religion, one of my red flags is intense religious beliefs, of any faith.

This is ofcourse based on my personal experience and opinion, and it's more a reflection of the men who practice it rather than the religion as a whole.

2020-10-15T16:32:24+00:00

[removed]

2020-10-15T12:07:58+00:00

[removed]

Title	Religions?
Author	_Hellchic_
Upvotes	35
Comments	69
Date	October 15, 2020 10:33 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/FemaleDatingStrategy
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/jbl2wo/religions/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/religions.318413 https://theredarchive.com/post/318413

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