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Gender-based subs are coming under fire in r/againsthatesubs but it doesn’t mean we are next. Keep it classy! And enjoy some of the rad-fem propagandizing subs being called out. Links in free text

Phollie

April 19, 2020

31 upvotes

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Post Information

Title	Gender-based subs are coming under fire in r/againsthatesubs but it doesn’t mean we are next. Keep it classy! And enjoy some of the rad-fem propagandizing subs being called out. Links in free text
Author	Phollie
Upvotes	31
Comments	108
Date	April 19, 2020 10:30 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/g45j8u/genderbased_subs_are_coming_under_fire_in/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/gender-based-subs-are-coming-under-fire-in.1063673 https://theredarchive.com/post/1063673

Comments

[–]functious 36 points37 points38 points 6 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]C0dey 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]functious 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Stock_Elevator2 points 6 years ago [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

Lmao. If I had a dollar if every feminist cried "ThAT'S nOT rEAl FeMiNIsM," when another feminist did something they didn't like, I'd have enough money to start a men's shelter.

[–]Egalitarianwhistle 11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Phollie[S] 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin -5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]Threwaway42 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AskingToFeminists 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 34 points35 points36 points 6 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

[–]Phollie[S] 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Phollie[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]AskingToFeminists 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Phollie[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin -5 points-4 points-3 points 6 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec3 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin0 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SonnBaz2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]lorarc 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin -3 points-2 points-1 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 7 points8 points9 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]Ciceros_Assassin -10 points-9 points-8 points 6 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 9 points10 points11 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]SonnBaz 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Ciceros_Assassin -2 points-1 points0 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]avistel 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]avistel 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]sedawkgrep1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

Dude - can we make this more of a pro-men sub without the tearing down of anything/anyone?

I just joined because I thought this sub might be above the hate/ridicule/etc. garbage that other subs seem to thrive on. I don't care what drama is happening in other subs. At all.

[–]peanutbutterjams 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]spudmixMachine Rights Activist 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]sedawkgrep1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Seriously?

How about enforcing rules 1, 2, 6, and 8.

Also having a low or zero tolerance for low-grade and inflammatory posts. The main page right now has the following stories/links which are not men-positive but actually women/feminism/social-negative :

Covid Politico image
Neither gender is oppressed
1992 TV interview
I'm a girl what's your superpower
Amber Heard / image
Gynocentrism / war
This thread
TERFs / transgenders
Pinkpill feminist brigaders
trans == men equality image
female prison sentencing vs. men
behind the masks of hate (while interesting is entirely about women in hate groups, so not really about men)

This constitutes about half of what I scrolled through. Each of these is either inflammatory, irrelevant, low-effort, or redundant in the sense of "yeah we know already".

What these do, is stoke the anger without providing any means of alleviation. How do you come to terms with an image of statistics? How do you further the men's cause by pointing fingers are pinkpillers?

There's a very low SNR in this sub. And I ain't got time for hate.

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Ok. Where have these things not been enforced? I need specific examples here because I'm not sure if things slipped by me or what didn't break the rules.

going through the current posts. I don't see this politico image.

The "neither gender is oppressed" post would fall under the low effort rules I suggested that were effectively shot down. But I don't see it breaking any other rules. It's showing how men are affected by things in a different way than women. and bringing into the frame that they still need help.

The tv interview is old. But I again don't see any issues. Though I haven't watched it. I do think a rule asking to summarize videos should be put in place. but that's just me.

the "i'm a girl" post is a good example and discussion of double standards in even the simplest of marketing. I think men and young boys should similarly have encouragement at a young age. but I doubt that such a slogan directed at boys would be taken so lightly as the girl one. Hell I just googled "I'm a boy, what's your superpower" and there's nothing. but there's still a bunch of female centric slogans that do pop up. I think it's honestly terrible that it seems young boys aren't welcome having pride in their gender or masculinity.

The amber heard post would also go under the low effort rules I proposed. but I do think the conversation is relevant simply due to the fact of how it's been received. It's a prime example of how men frequently slip through the cracks due to feminist lobbying regarding domestic abuse.

The gynocentrism post would also go against the low effort rule I suggested. But again I think a well written conversation would be warranted.

I'm honestly not a fan of posts like this one. and once again it would fall under my suggested low effort rule. But I do think conversation is warranted and on topic. It just needs to be of better quality

The terf post I see I think is actually pretty decent in quality. I do think there's a lot of blatant misandry within feminism and many feminists that blatantly refuse to acknowledge it. instead relying on mislabeling the issue transphobia when it's clear that the hatred is directed purely at the masculine.

I don't see the trans == men image. so I can't comment on it.

I also don't see the prison sentencing. but I do believe it is a mens issue worth discussing.

I do see the mask of hate. And I do agree with you on this one. it's interesting, but not particularly about men. Though I can see it becoming a very decent discussion if we talked about how to keep women away from these hate groups. And the psychology of how they become invested.

What these do, is stoke the anger without providing any means of alleviation. How do you come to terms with an image of statistics? How do you further the men's cause by pointing fingers are pinkpillers?

I agree that image posts need at least a paragraph of text for discussion. I offered this as a rule so that we could effectively moderate and keep low effort rage bait from becoming an issue. This was shot down. but I encourage you to message /u/serpentineeyelash or the mods in general if you think a change is warranted.

But! where we may disagree. I do think it's reasonable to point out issues within feminism.

Misandrists within the movement being given power and influence has actively harmed men and will continue to do so if left unchecked.

[+]sedawkgrep1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Misandrists within the movement being given power and influence has actively harmed men and will continue to do so if left unchecked.

Exactly what "checking" do you think is happening here? Simply pointing out misandry/misandrists is like saying the sky is blue. Yeah...so? Do you really think that these examples are news to anyone? Add new, relevant items to a sticky post on that subject if you want to keep a tally. Otherwise just.let.it.go.

At the end of the day, about 80% of what is posted here is wasted time and bandwidth. There are some good articles, resources, and discussions, but there's so much other unhelpful noise that I am unwilling to sift through it and the adjoining hostility posts to find it.

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Exactly what "checking" do you think is happening here? Simply pointing out misandry/misandrists is like saying the sky is blue. Yeah...so? Do you really think that these examples are news to anyone in this sub? Add new, relevant items to a sticky post on that subject if you want to keep a tally. Otherwise just.let.it.go.

I've actually seen several times in this sub discussions in which one party learned something about feminist misandry. be it disadvantages men face that are swept under a rug. or stats that are incorrect.

At the end of the day, about 80% of what is posted here is wasted time and bandwidth. There are some good articles, resources, and discussions, but there's so much other unhelpful noise that I am unwilling to sift through it and the adjoining hostility posts to find it.

So. by what margins are we judging this? What makes it noise? the low effort? the bringing awareness to misandry (which I think is relevant) or the hostility? And what do you mean by hostility? Because I honestly feel like people being upset by blatant unchallenged misandry is reasonable.

See my point above about the sky being blue. If someone has a worthwhile issue and wants to speak to that from a space of men's needs and its inequities, then that's at least something. But the "woe is man, look at the women doing X/Y/Z" does zero to advance understanding.

See. I would agree that outrage porn is kind of ridiculous. That's why I was aiming for it under a low effort rule. I don't want this sub to just become somewhere like /r/pussypassdenied

BUT. When there's a discussion about prominent events like amber heard. Not everybody who comes here is aware of them.

[+]sedawkgrep1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Because I honestly feel like people being upset by blatant unchallenged misandry is reasonable.

There are a couple ways one can react - blame outward and hate the external, and stay focused on that, or turn inward and accept (or ignore) what's going on and just ask how can you better yourself and those you know.

Not every post and reply is the former, but it predominantly is.

There's a grain of truth to the notion of "man up", and it's contained in the serenity prayer:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.

I'm not religious but this is really a mature way of dealing with the world and your place within it. And to me, reflecting back to everyone those things which you cannot change is antithetical to the men's cause. You cannot change the mind of Amber Heard any more than you can change the content of the image on imgur.com. You can change the minds of those you interact with, especially personally. I have low confidence in minds being changed on reddit; it takes an already open mind. Regarding Amber Heard, et al., the only useful step IMO is to chalk it up to the list and move on.

Perhaps young men think they can change the world in a single stroke. Not gonna happen. Change starts within and reverberates out. That's always how positive things go.

As I write this some things are coming clear for me. Young people need to go through a period of yelling at the inequities of the world. It's a REALLY good thing in my opinion. But at some point that absorption of the external, and internal energy generated therein, needs to be utilized for something good and positive. This is where I see the failings in things like this and worry about my brothers faltering. No one wants to be an incel. But if one cannot move past the endless negative external stimulus and into one of of acceptance, (NOT tolerance!!) that energy just becomes cancerous and can metastasize.

So as an observer, I sit and watch what seems like an endless echo-chamber of hate and finger pointing, and wonder what good will come of that. I feel the need to help lift men out of that pit, so they can be self-loving, self-reliant, self-determining, self-confident, etc. I'm on this journey myself and wish I had that role model to help me; but I'm old enough and wise enough to lend a hand to others and know it will at least not be a harmful one. But it's taken a long time to get there.

I appreciate this dialog. Thank you.

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Because I honestly feel like people being upset by blatant unchallenged misandry is reasonable.

There are a couple ways one can react - blame outward and hate the external, and stay focused on that, or turn inward and accept (or ignore) what's going on and just ask how can you better yourself and those you know.

campaigning for awareness can make change happen. It's worked before and it can work again.

Not every post and reply is the former, but it predominantly is.

There's a grain of truth to the notion of "man up", and it's contained in the serenity prayer:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.

I'm not religious but this is really a mature way of dealing with the world and your place within it. And to me, reflecting back to everyone those things which you cannot change is antithetical to the men's cause. You cannot change the mind of Amber Heard any more than you can change the content of the image on imgur.com. You can change the minds of those you interact with, especially personally. I have low confidence in minds being changed on reddit; it takes an already open mind. Regarding Amber Heard, et al., the only useful step IMO is to chalk it up to the list and move on.

the aim isn't to change the mind of amber heard. it's to make people aware of what's going on so they can change their minds about it. it's spreading awareness. I've seen minds changed online. it can happen. but it takes a calm polite discussion.

Perhaps young men think they can change the world in a single stroke. Not gonna happen. Change starts within and reverberates out. That's always how positive things go.

by bringing awareness to issues like the difference in how men are treated in domestic violence cases. it changes the way people see them. and has the power to change the way we deal with them.

As I write this some things are coming clear for me. Young people need to go through a period of yelling at the inequities of the world. It's a REALLY good thing in my opinion. But at some point that absorption of the external, and internal energy generated therein, needs to be utilized for something good and positive. This is where I see the failings in things like this and worry about my brothers faltering. No one wants to be an incel. But if one cannot move past the endless negative external stimulus and into one of of acceptance, (NOT tolerance!!) that energy just becomes cancerous and can metastasize.

so if somebody is being actively hurt or mistreated you would expect them to just let it happen instead of rallying to make change?

So as an observer, I sit and watch what seems like an endless echo-chamber of hate and finger pointing, and wonder what good will come of that. I feel the need to help lift men out of that pit, so they can be self-loving, self-reliant, self-determining, self-confident, etc. I'm on this journey myself and wish I had that role model to help me; but I'm old enough and wise enough to lend a hand to others and know it will at least not be a harmful one. But it's taken a long time to get there.

what you see as endless hate and finger pointing. I see as people passionately stating "this isn't fair" and trying to raise awareness so they can make a change.

[–]InitiatePenguin 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Strikester101 6 points7 points8 points 6 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link

[–]Phollie[S] 17 points18 points19 points 6 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

[–]Strikester101 10 points11 points12 points 6 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–]functious 15 points16 points17 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]adlerchen1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

It's like trying to disavow Andrea Dworkin's writings without disavowing Andrea Dworkin.

[–]heimdahl81 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]Stock_Elevator1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

You can, but it would also be silly to say that bad sects of Christianity are not actually Christian.

[–]czerdec 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]functious 8 points9 points10 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AskingToFeminists 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PM_ME_UR_1080TI 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]magus678 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]SchalaZeal01 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]magus678 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, just glancing at the first google result for IQ distribution, average and sub average alone account for ~70% of the population. Men will make up a disproportionate amount of this cohort.

Add to this a competitive aspect to college admissions and it could further drive this proportion out. Then there's affirmative action policies, and the general tendency of boys to have lower levels of conscientiousness in general.

Its a cocktail of factors, certainly. But the rule of thumb seems to hold true.

Or, as I mentioned elsewhere, it is completely wrong. I'm not advocating that we simply take it as gospel and stop trying. But it would be equally wrong to presume that "equality" as most measure it is naturally possible. It may not be.

If we took a pygmy infant and an infant from a long line of nobel prize scientists and raise them together, there will still be stark differences in g-factor intelligence. Biology plays its part. The only real conversation is how much.

[+]lorarc1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

If we were to assume that the people with highest IQ go to college than looking at college enrolment rate in USA (about 40%) it doesn't really look that unplausible. It would mean that 48% of women and 32% of men go to college, that isn't really that extreme.

And yes, it's probably about other options.

[–]AskingToFeminists 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]lorarc 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Strikester101 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]magus678 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The citations are in the article. I'm not sure what you'd want me to add to it.

I mean there are a million possible confounding factors; the school system is non-optimal for boys, and even agreeing on what "success" looks like is its own conversation. The entire "things vs people" dynamic is obviously a big elephant in that.

But anecdotally it seems to hold true in the general sense of nature rolling the dice with xy chromosomes more than xx, whether you are looking at prison populations or Nobel prize winners. After all, a single exceptional man can create many children, while a woman cannot. Male disposability as a social practice is rooted in biology.

Or, it could all be wrong. But as of the moment it seems to be a reasonable guideline. There is some point where it must be questioned whether "equality" as most define it is even truly possible.

[–]thereslcjg2000left-wing male advocate 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[+]sedawkgrep2 points 6 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Dude really? Like you can’t think of one thing that feminism has done that’s a net positive to the world through the enablement of women?

Google it. Feminism, when it comes to women’s equality has done a LOT of good things.

Just so we’re all clear - I would prefer the term feminism to stay solely on women’s rights and causes. We have our own and I don’t want that term diluting or distorting that, nor should woman want it either.

[–]peanutbutterjams 11 points12 points13 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I would prefer the term feminism to stay solely on women’s rights and causes

Me too. I recently had a comment deleted from /r/MensLib (no surprise) when I objected to someone saying that the world needs feminism because they want a "culture in which we treat each other like human beings with amazing potential and possible growth in any direction."

As in, the only to attain that culture is through feminism. It was pretty depressing to see a universal human desire inextricably tied with feminism. I pointed out that this was more properly called "humanism", was heavily downvoted and the comment chain was deleted.

Feminism as a subset of humanism and that acts to advocate for women and helps people understand how gender norms and expectations uniquely affect women? Sure. That's what I want from male advocacy. Mutual understanding.

But feminism as a replacement term for humanism? No. Besides the toxicity currently present in the movement and ideology, the word itself is gender-biased and inappropriate to use in that context.

[–]thereslcjg2000left-wing male advocate 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Stock_Elevator1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Historically it has had positives, but there isn't really a place for the movement in the modern world.

[+]sedawkgrep1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I disagree completely.

As we reckon now and in the future with both male and female issues, the advocates for each side need to be aware and vigilant. It's going to be a LONG time before there is no such thing - if ever.

[–]Strikester101 3 points4 points5 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, I guess the obvious is improving the position of women, as /u/sedawkgrep. The movement also has potential to improve men's position as well (and that's the part where it all goes downhill because of feminists).

As an example, "masculine" occupations like firefighting are often ignored as a positive aspect of men, where they overwhemingly focus on how their sexism is preventing access for women, especially the part where depicting them as masculine is alienating. However, they tend to gender violence as male because "it's being frank or otherwise, you are part of the problem". It's like they completely forgot what they were fighting against.

You may also be familiar with "But who are the cause of ALL these issues? MEN!". I have a personal ire with this because of how hypocritical it is. To elaborate, feminists aren't as supportive of women as they claim to be; they priortised white and upper-class women over working WOC (who had to start their own movement because of it) in the past, the "lesbian separatism" caused a lot of problems for LGBT (and have portrayed lesbians as nothing more than "man-hating women who believes in gender supremacy"). Now, there are trans-women who have to deal with their shitty "It's for women's protection" attitude (ironically, some of it stems from misandry, which they heavily downplayed the seriousness).

[–]AskingToFeminists 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]spudmixMachine Rights Activist 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Forgetaboutthelonely 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]InitiatePenguin 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]czerdec 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Phollie[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]czerdec 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Phollie[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Colombian-mra 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link