I'm glad I found this sub, but...

joeclark5 · 2019-12-05T21:09:29+00:00

Reddit tends to have extreme views and not much middle ground. Luckily, there are more reasonable people in real life.

Egalitarianwhistle · 2019-12-05T21:44:20+00:00

I think feminism made a huge mistake when it moved to limit free speech. A major weakness of feminism is that advocacy research tends to manipulate statistics consciously or unconsciously in their favor. For decades, we were told 1 in 4 women will be raped on campus. Suddenly that stat disappeared. Now we have the CDC NISVS survey that says 1 in 5 women will be raped in their lifetime. It also says that women rape as often as men, year over year. (But they dont define it as rape so it gets left out )

Instead of correcting itself, Feminism instead moved to silence opposition. Now that's tyranny... The worst part about it is that there is still so much work to be done for gender equality from both sides. Shutting down dissent and criticism is always tyrannical.

Where are the feminists who call out feminism?

bkrugby78 · 2019-12-06T01:19:09+00:00

I read a lot. I am a member of both the New York and Brooklyn Public Libraries, so it is easy for me to access content there. While I read a variety of things, I do try to read from perspectives I don't know much about. One of those is feminism. Right now I am currently reading Liz Plank's "For the Love of Men: A New Vision for Mindful Masculinity." Now, I am not saying I am reading this and am all like "Wow, Liz, sign me up for feminism." I have my own critiques of what I've read so far but I do not need time to digest everything intellectually. I would place her in the "Feminism is for everyone" camp, based on what I have read. It seems as if she has a purpose in mind that is mostly positive for men.

That said, Feminism comes in a variety of formats. Virtually every feminist community on Reddit (including r/menslib) doesn't allow for discussion of the issues men face. There are feminists who will say "feminism is for everyone" and you will find them occasionally in such groups, but they are in the minority, at least on Reddit.

Far as I can tell, there are some issues where men's and women's needs intersect based on my current reading of Plank's book. While I don't agree that there is a gender wage gap, it occurs to me that I am beginning to understand that for feminists, encouraging men to enter industries that are typically thought of as female is more about raising the status of those industries up than it is about "feminizing" men. Essentially her book so far is not about demonizing masculinity, but rather, rethinking what we know about it and asking, is this really benefitting us?

I also just recently got hold of a book about women in Antiquity, which I interested to read. And I have some bell hooks stuff on hold. Again, I'm trying to be open minded, but I can't let what people on Reddit influence me too much.

Blauwpetje · 2019-12-06T09:14:34+00:00

Gender doesn't split the movement. There are great women defending men, and there are men attacking their own sex.

thereslcjg2000 · 2019-12-05T21:34:22+00:00

Yeah, this is a problem I’ve noticed a lot. I think it exists in the real world but is much more prevalent in media and on the internet. I’ve met a few radicals on both sides in real life, but most people I know, liberal and conservative, stand somewhere in the middle. In the digital world, it’s a sad truth that the people with the most extreme views yell the loudest.

AskingToFeminists · 2019-12-06T00:53:29+00:00

I choose to be optimistic on this front. While /r/MensLib is criticized a lot due to its strict adherence to "feminist dogma" (such as the idea that sexism is a unidirectional case of men oppressing women, and that every male disadvantage carries with it a benefit for men as a class) and a penchant for self-flagellation on some members' part, at least initiatives like it have mainstreamed within the feminist movement (and broader society) the ideas that men can have a shit deal and that they can suffer. I don't think there was a place for this type of discourse under second-wave feminism, at least the 70s and 80s style with Andrea Dworkin and Catharine McKinnon as the flagbearers.

The biggest obstacle is extreme polarization. Online spaces have a tendency nowadays to either succumb to an overdose of "wokeness" and callout culture on the one hand, or far-right edgelordery on the other hand. If you are put off by "kill all men" / "manbabies" discourse, or just the idea that it's impossible for women to be sexist against men (while most guys have clearly experienced anti-male prejudice at least once in their life), and you have another group of people whispering in your ear that feminism is all lies and part of a plot to ruin Western culture, then you are in a toxic situation all around. It's difficult to be a "principled civil libertarian" nowadays when extremely online cliques filled with ideologues with way too much time on their hands look to flood any space they can get their hands on unless their particular brand of fundamentalism is banned by moderators of "the opposite side".

I find a lot to disagree with on this subreddit, but at least I can't predict with 100% accuracy what any given member thinks about any given issue based on the buzzwords they use, unlike the usual left-wing or right-wing subreddits. This makes me think that spaces like this have at least more potential for original thought and potential new insights than more circlejerk-y spaces that just repeat standard left-wing or right-wing talking points ad infinitum.

As long as spaces like these exist and its members can manage to set the tone with civil, respectful, nuanced discussions without having to go to ban-heavy (choosing to drown out the bad, thoughtless takes with quality takes instead of the banhammer whenever possible), I think there is hope for betterment. For example, I see both MensLibbers and MRAs interacting with each other, which seems to be an unlikely prospect on either /r/MensLib or /r/MensRights . And that's what it's about: a bit more dialogue and a bit less locking oneself in echo chambers.

bonobo-no · 2019-12-05T23:17:17+00:00

How is the feminist community toxic?

mewacketergi · 2019-12-05T22:10:25+00:00

You are welcome. I think it's okay not to worry about labels that much.

liztu_june · 2019-12-07T18:31:35+00:00

I find feminist to be on a spectrum form reasonable person to feminazi.

cromulent_weasel · 2019-12-08T23:50:30+00:00

What is stopping us from making the world a better place for everybody

Correct. There are a minority of us on here that identify as both feminist AND an advocate for males. It's almost like there are different things that are problems for different groups, and we don't all need to play the oppression Olympics to minimalise the problems experienced by other groups.

Xemnas81 · 2019-12-11T03:06:13+00:00

People trying to radicalise moderates. Seen this happen to several egalitarian women by rad-fems

All it takes is taking an egalitarian statement and then pointing out how actually X shows women aren't 'roughly suffering the same' but facing more struggle than men, and Y shows how many men actually just aren't taking enough responsibility

Title	I'm glad I found this sub, but...
Author	GaborFrame
Upvotes	34
Comments	102
Date	December 5, 2019 9:06 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/e6nn09/im_glad_i_found_this_sub_but/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/im-glad-i-found-this-sub-but.1202273 https://theredarchive.com/post/1202273

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