Why do all the societal conversations pertaining to men tend to "problematize" dudes?

BlueBlood75 · 2020-05-21T06:04:27+00:00

Great point. I think it has something to do with society not letting/ believing men can be victims of anything. Since we aren’t victims in society’s eyes, it won’t mold things to fit us. It’s our responsibility to fit ourselves in (pull self up by bootstraps/ man up).

Same goes for people saying we’re ‘whining’ when pointing out injustice towards men. Since we’re not victims in their eyes, we’re not entitled to have a voice on the subject of oppression. Then you have people saying that men’s problems are essentially patriarchy punching itself in the face and men can fix it anytime we want. Which isn’t true bc most men hold no social power whatsoever.

hectorgarabit · 2020-05-21T12:21:34+00:00

I agree. One example I think is with the incel community. The way I see it, it's a bunch of guys who have basically no interaction with women and girls, no hope to have any. The way more "popular" boy treat them is not better. They are sad angry boys/men. They have no hope of having a "normal" social life ever (as in a GF). As a result they say stupid things, they blame it on everyone and other not very helpful behavior.
These guys are at the bottom of a pit, they don't see how to exist this pit and instead of handing them a hand, society keep telling them that they don't deserve better, that they are evil, mean, dumb and ugly. Not exactly helpful.
It is not hard to understand why a 16 yo boy who has no hope of having a romantic interaction ever would be angry and awkward.
I don't see how calling incels domestic terrorist will help, that's ridiculous and that's exactly what I'm describing. Some men hurt... let's call them pure evil, that'll solve the problem.
The thing is, you can always send men to jail or shoot them, that's acceptable. As a result you don't need to solve any issue. You just make it bad enough so jail is acceptable. Society would not accept this solution for a women.

FightHateWithLove · 2020-05-21T11:43:51+00:00

The reason I think the hyperagency/hypoagency bias is so important to address is that it changes the very way people think and talk about the genders.

When people talk about men/boys the focus is always on their actions/choices, the consequences of those actions, and what those consequences mean for society.

When people talk about women the focus is on how the women are, what is being done to/for them, and what responsibility society has to them.

So it's almost impossible to get people to focus on what is happening to men. The conversation will always steer back to men as the producers of a problem/issue and away from men being affected.

feltentragus · 2020-05-21T11:54:30+00:00

What you've been experiencing is sexism.

I don't think I can do better than to recommend J.P. Tate's Feminism is Sexism to you for a thorough and thought-provoking examination of how feminism works and what's going on in politics today. I found it clearly written and his arguments well laid out. Some quotes to give you the flavor of his writing:

"It is crucial to understand that traditional sexism always victimised -both sexes because all of the gratiuitous privileging of women that feminism has perpetrated is ... [mistakenly] justified on the grounds that it is a necessary rectification of a traditonal societal imbalance that favored men."

Tate, ch.1 p.9. Emphasis in original

"Feminism is in power. Face it, if an ideology exercises power in every arm of the state, then that ideology is a part of the political establishment. It is not a part of a "progressive counter-culture," it is the culture. You live in it. ... The feminist reactionaries of the establishment have exercised the power of veto over what you are allowed to hear in the hope of exercising a similar power of veto over what you are allowed to think. ... [In this book] the conventional assumptions and presuppositions about the politics of gender do not apply in the argument that follows. For example, it will not be blithely taken for granted that sexism is a male crime, or that only women suffer sexism, or that men are violent and women are not, or that women are intrinsically better human beings than men."

Tate, Feminism is Sexism p.11 emphasis in original.

"Feminism's approach to the politics of gender as a sex-war has actually made it the chief perpetrator of a societal imposition of gender identitites in present-day society, with its emphatic gender-stereotypes of male guilt and female innocence. In any discussion of domestic violence feminism will cast men in the role of perpetrator and women in the role of victim, even though this is not a true picture of domestic violence. ... [other examples omitted]

Feminism relies very heavily on its ideological attribution of gender identitites that portray a world of opressed women and male opressors. It does everything it can to psychologically condition women into seeing themselves as opressed, just as its propaganda constantly promotes a degraded and debauched picture of men.

Mainstream feminism is constantly telling us what 'men' are like and how they behave, and what 'women' are like and how they behave. ... [F]eminism is guilty of a gross societal imposition of gender and is therefore guilty of sexism, not opposed to it."

Tate, p.14. Emphasis in original.

(n.b. I'm not the author, and nor do I benefit in any way by recommending this book. Don't waste your money on his fiction, though.)

peanutbutterjams · 2020-05-21T06:24:57+00:00

illustrate men/boys as problems requiring solutions, rather than people with problems that require solutions.

This attitude has resulted in a tendency for people to ask "how can boys/men be changed to fit the system better?", rather than "how can the system change to better accommodate the needs of men/boys?".

Well said! I've wondered the same thing myself.

When they look at black-on-black violence, they also look at racism and socioeconomic conditions.

When they look at alcoholism amongst First Nations, they also look at intergenerational trauma and colonialism.

When they look at male violence, they just look at men and tell them to stop it.

Where's our consideration for a millennia of sexual selection favouring violence over peace? Where's our consideration for thousands of generations of intergenerational trauma?

As you said, why can't the system be made to accommodate our needs and history as well?

Because according to pop feminism, the system was designed by men and so men are responsible for all of its effects. We are the "oppressor class" and the architects of patriarchy. We are responsible for the way the world is...so why would we need anybody's help?

This is exactly the attitude that pop feminism promotes and it HURTS MEN. And it's why I'm not a feminist.

accuse me (of) "whining". An attitude that ironically sounds quite similar to the "boys don't cry" or "man up" attitude

Yes, add 'poor privileged male' and 'male fragility' to the list. All of this rhetoric actually encourages men to accept negative and harmful stereotypes about themselves to show that they can 'man up and take their lumps'. It leverages machismo (i.e., toxic masculinity) in order to keep the 'alpha male' feminists in line all while claiming that men need to shed themselves of the very qualities they're exploiting.

Imagine all the boys right now growing up in a very environment that constantly tells them they are a problem. They either submit to social forces and accept the label or they rebel and prove to the feminists that they really are a problem. Any other identity growing up in such conditions would be a rallying cry but because these boys are somehow responsible for decisions a few white male CEOs make, they have to suffer the socially acceptable hate and contempt from everyone around them.

The weight must be staggering.

This sub creates a very necessary third way and I'm glad for it. You don't have to submit to someone else's description of you based on your gender and you don't have to fall into hating those people either. We can resist and still be full of love.

VertuseAlet · 2020-05-21T08:54:51+00:00

/r/MensLib is controlled opposition. The purpose of their existence is to gaslight people into not understanding the very thing you've explained.

MMDT · 2020-05-21T10:02:13+00:00

This attitude has resulted in a tendency for people to ask "how can boys/men be changed to fit the system better?", rather than "how can the system change to better accommodate the needs of men/boys?".

You've hit the nail on the head here. Something I've been thinking about for a while is what is society. And the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that women & children are what society is. As in, when we think about "society", our home, what we really mean is the collection of women and children that are residents of it. Men are not really society itself, men are the framework that holds society up. They do this by being disposable workhorses. [Unlike women, men are not a "group"]((https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HDoDGunJLc). Men are only individual agents, running around using their sweat and blood to prop up this thing called "society". Then, within that society, women rear the future generation.

This is why when it comes to men's issues, the talk is not how can we change society, because men are not society, it is how can we change men. But for issues affecting women, the opposite it true: zero responsibility is placed on women and we instead ask ourselves how can we mould society to better accommodate them.

This is why women have been shielded from all the dirty, dangerous toil of the past: Wars, coalmines, explorers, sewage cleaners etc. If your goal is to improve society, it makes zero sense to destroy society (ie women) in the process. When it comes to war, if your goal is to protect society, it makes zero sense to send the very thing you're trying to protect into battle.

phoneticau · 2020-05-21T06:21:46+00:00

Because of cultural marxism, identify politics and feminism, as most of the noise is in the west add white dudes extra

Douglas0327 · 2020-05-21T07:13:07+00:00

3rd and 4th wave feminism and most gender studies teach what could be called a form of cultural marxism, which has replaced class with intersectional feminism / identity politics; a good deal of this type of theory is built upon the notion of there being an “oppressor” class and (cis white) men have been given that label. To entertain the thought that society also oppresses men pulls the rug from under that ideology, so “men” themselves have to change as they are seen to be the problem, not “society” as a whole. This explains some of the hostility and mental gymnastics you face when you raise men’s issues as being a societal issue, you’re challenging a whole ideology and vested interests. No academic wants to see 30 years of their work disproven and no one who thinks they’re a victim fighting for justice wants to realise they’re part of the problem.

PrincessofPatriarchy · 2020-05-21T15:54:42+00:00

There is a perception of male hyper-agency. That men cannot be victimized, that they are in control of everything that happens to them and therefore they should be expected to just fix everything that is wrong in their lives without inconveniencing others.

Men can't be abused, or if they are they should just be able to leave, or just push her off. If he defends himself then he is the bad guy because it's not like a woman could hurt him to begin with. Men can't be raped. Or if they are, it's because they are "weak" and should be ashamed of themselves for "letting" it happen to them. Or alternatively since men are horny animals anyway they enjoy it.

This places large responsibilities on men. Men are responsible if they are abused, raped or assaulted. If men join gangs or commit crimes it is because they are bad people who behaved out of malice. If men become drug addicts it's because they are weak-willed. If they are suicidal it's because they're too weak to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. There is nothing men are not responsible for overcoming by sheer masculine will. Health issues, mental health disorders, abuse, rape, war, violence, trauma, etc.

Some attitudes are also steeped in homophobia. For instance, if a male child is a victim of sexual abuse then the stereotype (an inaccurate one at that) is that he will turn out gay. As if being gay is the worst thing to come out of childhood trauma rather than things like PTSD, sexual aversion, etc. It reinforces the "men are weak" stereotype in a way that is more palatable. The male rape victim is still seen as a weak person but in this case it was because they were "turned" gay and not because we blame children for being raped.

Women are perceived to have hypo-angency in the other direction. A female abuse victim is never responsible for not "just leaving" because she is in danger. Women are powerless to sexual violence, there is no point in fighting back because they will never prevail (even though research indicates the opposite). When women commit crimes it's because they are traumatized, victims of abuse or violence who were driven over the edge. A woman who rapes a man was probably insecure, seeking validation. A woman who abuses a man can't do him any real harm and she is the real victim if he fights back. Women are victims, not survivors. Incapable of overcoming the odds. Women can't be soldiers, can't be firefighters or police officers, can't protect their children or their families. They can't even protect themselves. If a woman is cruel or violent it must be because she is hurting, or mentally ill. Women are immune from almost any expectation of responsibility in their lives. But at the same time they are assumed incapable of contributing much of value outside of a few things such as being mothers, wives or objects of desire.

The one area where women are perceived to have power over men is the one area they are assigned most responsibility. And that is all about sex. Women in the past who made their own money in a time where women were expected to be reliant on their husbands were the most stigmatized (prostitutes). Women who are raped may have been asking for it, tempting fate. Why was she dressed like that, why was she alone, why did she drink? And few women are hated more than the female gold digger. A woman who uses her power over men (sex) to take the power away from them (money). This is also the one area men are seen as powerless. Men cheat because they have needs. Men rape because they were tempted by the victim. Men like being raped because it means they get laid. Men are slaves to their desire, women are the gatekeepers who must keep them in check. Sex is a favor women give to men.

These perceptions result in men being perpetually blamed for not just everything tjet do but everything done to them. It also means women are seen as having things done to them but incapable of doing much themselves-good or bad-.

This is also exacerbated by things like race where black men are perceived to be almost constantly dangerous or threatening no matter what they do.

Hyper-agency and hypo-angency have their benefits and drawbacks but this is why men are treated like projects and women like they can do no wrong. This is why being a "weak" man is considered to be such a bad thing to trad-cons and in society. The more feminine a man is perceived (such as gay men or male victims of crimes) the more they are like women and therefore stripped of agency.

a-man-from-earth · 2020-05-21T23:21:21+00:00

I think this is an important question, and it is really mindboggling that one of the fundamental issues we face as men is not "in their wheelhouse" over at MensLib. I guess you didn't pass their ideological purity test.

But to react to the issue at hand, it is hard to address this, because of the male sympathy gap. I think we need to keep raising awareness, even if we shouldn't have to point out that this will benefit society at large.

Title	Why do all the societal conversations pertaining to men tend to "problematize" dudes?
Author	WhenIsItOkayToHate
Upvotes	55
Comments	42
Date	May 21, 2020 5:40 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/gnr3op/why_do_all_the_societal_conversations_pertaining/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/why-do-all-the-societal-conversations-pertaining.1063437 https://theredarchive.com/post/1063437

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