Great article on what's wrong with saying a man should not have an opinion on abortion.

[–]factorygrrrl 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]ImAPurplePrincess 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

And the women's contribution in the actual impregnation aspect is not comparable to the man having to get an erection, produce sperm, and ejaculate.

I think that's what gasadf was getting at. A man giving up his semen isn't the same as a woman going through several, several weeks of change to her body.

Also, I feel like the pleasures you are comparing are pretty different. I mean, both parties get pleasure through the baby-making process. (Hopefully.)

But being pregnant is not a walk in the park.

Just look at the pregnancy symptoms that can occur: Link

Especially in the later months.

A lot of them seem really uncomfortable. Hemorrhoids, constipation, trouble sleeping, shortness of breath and other things. Am I saying that a woman has never enjoyed their pregnancy at one point? Of course not. But it can have quite the toil on the body.

[–]MR_Movement 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Also, I feel like the pleasures you are comparing are pretty different.

That is the point I was getting at. We can compare things all day long but, in the end, everything is different. It will always be different. Trying to compare the two is an excercise in futility because one side will always say to the other "but it is different for us!"

Women enjoy pregnancy very much. They brag about it. They post pictures. They fawn over each other. There are many benefits to being pregnant such as being able to eat pretty much whatever they want. They are excused from almost all physical labor. They get preferential treatment. Strangers are nice to them more so than usual. They get that "glow" which is caused by fetal development hormones which also has an effect on their well-being. Those hormones can actually improve their health during and after pregnancy. They do not have to get menstrual cramps or any of the other negative things associated with their menstrual cycle. In some cases, postpartum women have found that their menstrual pain ceases altogether after a pregnancy. Pain reduction after giving birth is a well-known by product of child bearing and is usually why women say that the second child is so easy. Also, during pregnancy, the woman's senses are jacked up due to hormones. Their nose and taste buds are generally off the chart making food taste extra delicious.

Besides the things mentioned, here is a jovial list showing why being pregnant is awesome. My point in this, going back to gasadf's comment where they basically said that a man's contribution to a pregnancy is negligible compared to the pain and suffering that women go through, is that by saying men contribute nothing and women endure nothing but pain and suffering is completely false. There is plenty of joy, more joy than pain, in being pregnant and giving birth. To minimize man's contribution and amplify women's pain is to ignore, purposefully I would argue, reality. Men contribute quite a bit and women derive a great deal of pleasure from pregnancy, all the way from conception to delivery and beyond.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Women enjoy pregnancy very much. They brag about it. They post pictures. They fawn over each other.

And they often are miserable. Have you even ever known a pregnant woman? As a father, uncle, and friend of people who've had kids, I've had the chance to know quite a few pregnant women, and I don't think any of them would paint such a rosy picture of the experience.

being able to eat pretty much whatever they want

Well, no. Often they have to avoid a good number of foods because the smell makes them sick, or the foods taste different than they normally do.

They are excused from almost all physical labor.

No, they're not. Many women do their regular activities as much as possible up until their due day, unless they've got some kind of bed rest order from a doctor.

They do not have to get menstrual cramps or any of the other negative things associated with their menstrual cycle.

The fetus growing in them often causes similar symptoms.

In some cases, postpartum women have found that their menstrual pain ceases altogether after a pregnancy.

Who cares about "in some cases"?

Also, during pregnancy, the woman's senses are jacked up due to hormones. Their nose and taste buds are generally off the chart making food taste extra delicious.

As I explained, that doesn't really work out like you think it does.

saying men contribute nothing and women endure nothing but pain and suffering is completely false.

No, it's mostly accurate, particularly when the topic is "who should have a say in whether a woman keeps a pregnancy or not". Being pregnant has little-to-nothing to do with men, and everything to do with women.

To minimize man's contribution and amplify women's pain is to ignore, purposefully I would argue, reality.

After reading your comment, I think you could use a dose of reality. Maybe talk to some women who've had children instead of reading the internets about pregnancy.

[+]ImAPurplePrincess 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I do agree with you on the fact that there can be good aspects during pregnancy. I somewhat implied it in my previous comment. I just didn't go in depth.

But I can't agree with you on the "eat as much as you want" aspect. The whole "feeding for two" is a bit of a myth. The calorie intake shouldn't differ as much before one is pregnant until the last 3 months. And even then it shouldn't be that much. Probably 200 calories or more, depending on the woman. Link

In regards to gasadf's comment though, It's not like they claimed men gave no contributions. Without the genetic material from the sperm, no baby would exist. We all know that. But for me personally (because I don't know what gasadf's stance is on this) I feel it's kind of silly that men feel they have an absolute say in abortions. But that's just my opinion.

Ideally, it would be awesome for a couple to discuss "Hey, are we ready to have a child?" and come to the conclusion together to keep the baby or not.

But sadly, that's not always the case.

But I do like you last sentence:

Men contribute quite a bit and women derive a great deal of pleasure from pregnancy, all the way from conception to delivery and beyond.

It just seems so...positive? I guess because I figured when you mean that men contribute far more then their genetic material, but emotional and financial support as well. As well as preparing themselves as a father-to-be. (I think I'm just putting words into your mouth at this point. Call me out if you wish.) Heck, your overall response seemed really positive to me.

[–]lawfairy 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]MR_Movement -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I literally just compared an orgasm to being pregnant. Are you trying to say that being pregnant is a horrible experience? Do you deny that millions of women get pregnant because they CHOOSE to do so? Do you deny that millions of women enjoy being pregnant? They are not forced to be pregnant but actively TRY to get pregnant. If you think that women hate being pregnant, that it is not enjoyable, that they do so against their will, or that child bearing is such a horrible experience that no sane person would ever do it more than once, then you will have to come up with some reason why so many billions of women CHOOSE to get pregnant. Explain why a woman would go through "months of nausea, fatigue, bloating, bladder problems, heartburn, hemorrhoids, and plenty of other nasty stuff" if there was no benefit or pleasure derived from the experience. I would be willing to bet that, due to the amount of children being born, by choice, every day, that being pregnant and having children is actually more pleasurable than an orgasm.

[–]lawfairy 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Are you trying to say that being pregnant is a horrible experience?

Well, it ain't exactly a visit to the spa. Whether it's "horrible" is really a matter of subjective individual experience.

Do you deny that millions of women get pregnant because they CHOOSE to do so?

What's that have to do with anything? Lots of people choose to do lots of unpleasant things, usually because the unpleasant thing is necessary to get something they do want. I go to work, not because I enjoy working, but because I want to get paid. I go to the gym, not because I enjoy exercising, but because I want to be in better physical shape. Etc., etc.

Do you deny that millions of women enjoy being pregnant?

I've never heard a woman compare pregnancy to orgasm. Ever. I have, however, heard plenty of women compare it to surgery, illness, captivity, and hell, in varying degrees of jest and sincerity. Do many women enjoy aspects of pregnancy? Sure. Planned pregnancies involve planning for a family, preparing to welcome a child into your life, and all kinds of things that make the parents-to-be happy and excited. And I've heard some women express a sense of wonder and "isn't that neat" at the idea that a baby is growing inside them, and I get that -- there's something unique and nifty about that.

But to suggest that pregnancy entails some kind of physical pleasure akin to orgasm is just... bizarre.

If you think that women hate being pregnant, that it is not enjoyable

Uh, well, some women DO hate being pregnant. Lots of them, actually. And MOST women don't pretend that pregnancy is pure pleasure -- I'm fairly certain that every single pregnant woman I've ever known has expressed some level of discomfort about her pregnancy and indicated that some aspect of it was not enjoyable.

The worst complaint I've ever heard about an orgasm, conversely, is that it was lackluster.

that they do so against their will

Actually, a lot of women do wind up carrying pregnancies against their will, especially in places where reproductive rights are not respected (and/or women who are very young or victims of domestic abuse such that they don't have control over their lives).

or that child bearing is such a horrible experience that no sane person would ever do it more than once

.... wait, who said that? 'Cause I certainly didn't.

Explain why a woman would go through "months of nausea, fatigue, bloating, bladder problems, heartburn, hemorrhoids, and plenty of other nasty stuff" if there was no benefit or pleasure derived from the experience.

Uh, I didn't say there was no benefit or pleasure. I said that if you think those things are comparable to having an orgasm, then orgasms SUCK in your reality. Orgasms are (supposed to be) pure physical pleasure, perhaps with some emotional enjoyment bound up in it. Pregnancy is a lot of things, but pure physical pleasure isn't one of them.

I would be willing to bet that, due to the amount of children being born, by choice, every day, that being pregnant and having children is actually more pleasurable than an orgasm.

You... don't talk to many women, do you?

[–]MR_Movement -2 points-1 points0 points 13 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It appears that we are both baffled by each other's perceptions of women's pregnancy. Your claim, as I understand it, is that women's pregnancy is "sickness for months, ridiculous body changes and hormone fueled mood swings, labor, and popping a small watermelon out of an much smaller hole" and any pleasures they receive from it is "a sense of wonder and "isn't that neat" at the idea that a baby is growing inside them". I disagree greatly.

You... don't talk to many women, do you?

Seeing as how we are going to stoop to veiled sarcasm pointed at character, I will have to use your own words back at you. Every single woman that I have ever known to get pregnant has thought it was a very gratifying and rewarding experience, usually enough so to do more than once. And not just as an end goal of raising a child, as you alluded to being most women's incentive for going through the displeasure of child bearing, because adoptions are always an option to avoid pregnancy and still raise a child, but because they enjoyed being pregnant.

But to suggest that pregnancy entails some kind of physical pleasure akin to orgasm is just... bizarre.

Again, I have to use your words against you in that...you don't talk to many women, do you? I would suggest maybe broadening your circle and see if you can find some women that would say that pregnancy DOES entail physical pleasure. There are actual physical benefits to being pregnant that it appears have escaped your perception of women and pregnancy. I find it...bizarre...that you have never encountered a female that has enjoyed being pregnant. You can get caught up in the whole orgasm aspect of it but it is clear that you think that women being pregnant is a horrible experience filled with pain and suffering. There does not appear to be any place in your world for women that derive pleasure from pregnancy other than as a placeholder for raising a child.

Orgasms might suck in my reality but pregnancy sucks in yours.

[–]lawfairy 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It appears that we are both baffled by each other's perceptions of women's pregnancy. Your claim, as I understand it, is that women's pregnancy is "sickness for months, ridiculous body changes and hormone fueled mood swings, labor, and popping a small watermelon out of an much smaller hole" and any pleasures they receive from it is "a sense of wonder and "isn't that neat" at the idea that a baby is growing inside them".

No; that isn't my claim. The fact that I gave you an example of things I've heard some women describe as positive things about their pregnancies does not equate to an affirmative statement that the example I gave is the only benefit of pregnancy.

Nor did I claim that women's pregnancies could be described as "sickness for months, ridiculous body changes and hormone fueled mood swings, labor, and popping a small watermelon out of an much smaller hole." It appears you are quoting someone else in response to my comment.

Although I did identify some things about pregnancy that are not enjoyable, my point was not (and cannot fairly be interpreted as being) that those things constitute the sum total of all that pregnancy is. My point, as I've made clear twice now, was that these things make it a pretty poor comparison to orgasm.

Seeing as how we are going to stoop to veiled sarcasm pointed at character

I wasn't aware that having a certain number of female friends/acquaintances was a marker of "character." I certainly didn't mean to suggest that it was.

And not just as an end goal of raising a child, as you alluded to being most women's incentive for going through the displeasure of child bearing, because adoptions are always an option to avoid pregnancy and still raise a child, but because they enjoyed being pregnant.

You can't seriously be arguing that the best explanation for why some women opt for pregnancy over adoption is because they enjoy the physical act of being pregnant. This is ignoring a lot.

Again, I have to use your words against you in that...you don't talk to many women, do you?

First, I am a woman, so I have a better sense than I'm guessing you do about what stuff going on "down there" feels like generally.

Second, I have read countless birth stories from any number of close personal friends of mine (I'm in my thirties, which is the age where lots of people start having kids). I've known a lot of women who opt for "natural" childbirths without the use of drugs, who focus on breathing exercises and use midwives, etc. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM has ever suggested that pregnancy (or the birthing process, if you're throwing that in for good measure) was orgasmic. Some of them have used terms like "miraculous" and "transcendent," sure -- but not a single one of them has tried to deny that this was in spite of an indescribable amount of physical pain.

If an orgasm involves pain, it's time to see a doctor.

There are actual physical benefits to being pregnant that it appears have escaped your perception of women and pregnancy.

What, like good hair, nails, and skin? Don't be silly. Of course I'm educated about pregnancy.

I find it...bizarre...that you have never encountered a female that has enjoyed being pregnant.

Okay, now you're putting words in my mouth. Not only did I not say this, you're directly contradicting what I actually did say.

You can get caught up in the whole orgasm aspect of it but it is clear that you think that women being pregnant is a horrible experience filled with pain and suffering.

What? You're reading my mind now? Okay. Tell me what word I'm thinking about you.

I didn't get "caught up" in the "whole orgasm aspect." I took you to task for a poor analogy. You chose to continue to defend it in an increasingly incompetent manner, and now you're putting words in my mouth in a desperate attempt to save face.

All of this could have been avoided if you'd had the humility to admit that you made a poor analogy.

Orgasms might suck in my reality but pregnancy sucks in yours.

You say that like saying "pregnancy sucks" is some kind of zinger. I know plenty of mothers who would use those exact literal words, in fact, and if you know many mothers at all, I'm betting you do too.

[–]Mytecacc 4 points5 points6 points 13 years ago* (50 children) | Copy Link

[–]MR_Movement 1 point2 points3 points 13 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

This is the argument that complexes me that abortion is about "women's choice". The other side is not arguing about women's choice or creating a "war" on women. Both sides appear to be arguing about two different things. The right is saying that the fetus is an independent life that is being killed and the left is saying that a woman can do whatever she wants with her body. Two different arguments. Both sides screaming at each other about things neither side is considering.

If the argument is that a pregnant woman can do whatever she wants with her body then this needs to encompass everything and every gender such as the war on drugs and circumcision. The left is doing a great injustice by saying that only pregnant women involved in abortions have the right to do what they want with their bodies. Let us make this more than a woman's issue then if that is what the fight is about. Pregnant women are not the only ones who should have an absolute right to their body.

The right, and people who are anti-abortion, believe that they are championing for the unborn child. Much the same way that the government assigns a guardian-ad-litem in court cases involving children to represent the children in court. The right to lifers have issues that are legitimate fears and worries. Brushing them under the carpet by claiming they are trying to take away women's rights is never going to end the debate and is nothing close to what they are talking about and debating. If we are going to say that strangers have no right to represent our children's interests then we must undo the courts practice of this in family law matters.

If we are going to allow women to use the "uterus card" which, as I understand it, simply claims that men cannot have a say in anything which is woman specific then the same must be true in revers: women cannot have a say in anything men specific. I do not think that is practical and will ever work as society is more than just our genders. And I can only imagine the uproar that women would have if we told them that they are not allowed in the conversation because they do not have a penis. This whole "women only" argument stinks of sexism.

Genetically, a baby is half of the mother's material and half of the father's. The child inside a woman is half of the father's material. Without the father's material, the child would not exist. To say that this is simply a woman's issue is discounting those things and makes for a dangerous precedent.

[–]Mytecacc -1 points0 points1 point 13 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Mytecacc 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure.

The concept of fetal programming of adult disease, whereby the environment experienced in the womb can have profound long-lasting consequences on health and risk of disease in later life, is well known; however, the process that drives this is unclear. Professor Megan Holmes, a neuroendocrinologist from the University of Edinburgh/British Heart Foundation Centre for Cardiovascular Science in Scotland (UK), will say: "During our research we have identified the enzyme 11ß-HSD2 which we believe plays a key role in the process of fetal programming." Adverse environments experienced while in the womb, such as in cases of stress, bereavement or abuse, will increase levels of glucocorticoids in the mother, which may harm the growing baby. Glucocorticoids are naturally produced hormones and they are also known as stress hormones because of their role in the stress response.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130407090835.htm

And here is the Adverse Childhood Experience Study, being neglected and / or abused is correlated to pretty much every problem and person can have.

http://www.cdc.gov/ace/

And here is Fetal alcohol syndrome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alcohol_syndrome

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What details do you think men and women need to agree on first?

If I am going to lend my vote to support abortion, I think the following would be a good start for discussion:

Under what circumstances should abortion be available
What is the process of a woman authorising her abortion, is there a cooling off period etc
What methods of abortion should be made legal
What is the oldest point of foetus maturation at which abortion can be performed
If the foetus dies before the legal abortion deadline, whether it is actually a crime
Should abortion be self-funded, funded by government health services or funded by private health insurance
Can an abortion be decided on behalf of underage girls by their parents / legal guardians
What protections need to be in place for doctors performing abortions
What medical facilities are required for a health service to be licenced to perform abortions

The answers to these question, and more I have not thought of, define what abortion is and how we frame it adequately in law. Failing to consider the subject in depth means poor laws are made. I give you Texas as an example.

[–]Mytecacc 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]4man 0 points1 point2 points 13 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Seems to me like you are overstepping your jurisdiction and into what should be more the jurisdiction of women, this mentality is precisely why the uterus card evolved as a quick silencing tactic.

I reject the notion that I can be silenced. I have not predicated any specific answers to the issues, only that when the law is formulated these points, and any other relevant issues, are considered to make the best attempt at creating good legislation. The answers that the community/country decides are what become law. Without public debate of the proposed legislation the ideas, foresight of pitfalls and community desires are reduced to the thought processes of a handful of legislators.

Abortion is an issue that is voted upon by citizens. In my country that means all men and women of voting age who hold citizenship. Sure, pro-choice lobbyists can ignore my points that I wish discussed, that only promotes the thought to me that I really should vote against abortion. It is basic change management principles, if you want commitment to the change then you need to involve the stakeholders. My voter status makes me a stakeholder in the legislation.

I might only be a man in the eyes of pro-abortion lobbyists, but I have a vote that is as valuable as a woman's vote. Not all women are pro-choice so my vote is worth courting.

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