The Patriarchy - Image

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We want to know why men make up the vast majority of homeless, but women get the vast majority of public funding in this area.

We want to know why men have now fallen to about 18%-20% that of women in college, yet government programs still have female only grants, and programs to encourage more women into college.

We want to know why DV against men is a joke in the media and soceity, and isn't taken seriously by the police or anyone, even though many reports, even by DOJ and CDC show DV to about equal between men and women perps.

Why are more boys dropping out of highschool, by about 15% greater than girls?

We want to know why the courts still give women custody of children in about 86% of the cases, and why men have such a hard time fighting for even equal time.

The list is long, and we don't hate women. But to deny that a lot of legislation that was lobbied through Congress by organizations such as NOW hasn't directly contributed to this decline in men is just to ignore the facts.

We hear about STEM, but what about feminists protesting to see more women in coal mines or on oil rigs or other dangerous jobs, since work related deaths are about 93% men.

There are more, a lot more. But all we hear is the patriarchy, male privilege, check your privilege....and its crap because 95% of the men are hurting and being blamed for 5% of the wealthly men. Weathly men don't give a shit about poor men.

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I believe that, at least how most express the definition, is that by being a man, that one has special privileges and oppurtunities in society, that women do not have. Hence, the concept of male privilege. Please correct me if I am wrong.

So we have seen men fall behind women in many, many areas, which is now affecting men as a group. (homelessness, education, prison, work related deaths, military related deaths, child custody, etc etc etc) Here is a devil's advocate question (obviously not meant to be a serious one): At what tipping point of problems do women need to incur more gender based privileges over men, before one discards the term Patriarchy for Matriarchy? Do you see where I am going with this?

The term is flawed because it is gender based. Whatever redeeming qualities the concept had, which you know are way more class based, are lost because it continuies to posit the concept of male privilege.

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Why not? It's a house of cards built on flimsy observations gathered by looking only at the very top of society.

It's driven by the same childish myopic brand of thinking that brought us the wage gap myth, later debunked due to people who are not feminist ideologues actually looking at the factors rather than looking at the average earnings and screaming "wage gap" at the top of their lungs as if it were a valid debate tactics. For example, women earn an average of around 80% of what men do but only work an average around 80% of the hours that men do? Well well.

The problem is that real life factual information like the percentage of homeless that are men, workplace deaths that are men, legal system inequalities including men literally lacking rights that women have and the well-documented sentencing disparities for the same crimes committed where women receive far more lenient sentences all debunk it. These things destroy the nebulous and ever-shifting catch-all that you intend your "patriarchy" straw-bogeyman to be.

Pointing these facts out shows just how ridiculous the notion of "patriarchy" is. If men are so privileged and given such a leg up in our society then why do they occupy almost all of the worst positions in our society. Hard questions which destroy the feminist narrative about "patriarchy". And it's not even a recent occurrence, either. Despite what your women's studies revisionist history tells you, the common man has long been at the bottom of society. Used as cannon fodder and hazardous labor work in things like land clearing and rail laying before your feminist social engineers were even born.

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I understand your meaning, but I don't think you really get what the word "privilege" means in the context of where it comes from.

It doesn't just mean "advantage". It comes from two words, the word for private and the word for law. In other words, a privilege is not just when circumstances favor you, but when the rules favor you.

For example, I am a bodybuilder. I am stronger and healthier than people who don't exercise. This is an advantage, but it is not a privilege, because it came to me through my own efforts, not as a result of policy or rules. I am also highly intelligent. This is another advantage, but, again, it is not a privilege, because it came to me as result of chance (what genes I happened to end up with), not as result of policy or rules. And I am a US citizen. This is a privilege. It is an advantage that comes to me as a result of rules.

You are (presumably) a woman. When you complain about injustice, people are more likely to be sympathetic to you, and to act on your behalf. This is an advantage, but not a privilege. The social custom of valuing you more and being more protective of you is not a rule or policy. You are also less likely to wind up homeless. This is a privilege. There are public programs, which both of us pay taxes into in equal portion, which will provide support to you, but not me, as a matter of policy.

I trust this makes the distinction clear.

Now, why am I arguing semantics with you? Because it's important. To call an advantage a "privilege" to use language that implies it is something unfair that must be eliminated.

If you say "let us work to eliminate privilege", that's going to sound like a reasonable proposition to a lot of people. But if we strip away the spin-doctoring, and realize that what this really means is "let us work to eliminate advantage", then it sounds like the precise sort of insane, Harrison Bergeran-esque statement that it actually is.

The very use of the term "privilege" in situations like this is an attempt to frame the discussion so that certain people are automatically characterized as part of the problem. You may think you're "explaining" the meaning of a technical term, but you're actually dispensing a piece of propaganda disguised as scholarship.

The very notion of "privilege" as a useful concept must be questioned vigorously, because the consensus that originally adopted it deliberately excluded certain perspectives, the male perspective being one of these.

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Privilege priv·i·lege noun 1. a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most: the privileges of the very rich. 2. a special right, immunity, or exemption granted to persons in authority or office to free them from certain obligations or liabilities: the privilege of a senator to speak in Congress without danger of a libel suit. 3. a grant to an individual, corporation, etc., of a special right or immunity, under certain conditions. 4. the principle or condition of enjoying special rights or immunities. 5. any of the rights common to all citizens under a modern constitutional government: We enjoy the privileges of a free people.

I'm guessing feminists concept of male privilege falls under definition #4. The problem with that is that men, if we were truly inclined to be such fucking crybabies, could make a case easily for female privilege. We could also make the case that males earn/ed male privilege by doing more/harder/dangerous work for virtually all of history, including today.

Earned privileges are good. They are a form of positive reinforcement. Encouragement to behave in a certain way and to continue behaving in a certain way, you know, like how your ilk use sex. but since society can't blow me for taking the trash out without having to be asked, they dangle different carrots.

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I know you're from SRS and are probably just here to start shit, but fuck it, I'm between clients right now and dealing with a stomach bug, so let's talk about The Patriarchy™. Before we get started though, can we settle on a working definition of the term? I mean, the definitions vary wildly, ranging from "an unjust social system that is oppressive to women" to "a social system in which the role of the male as the primary authority figure is central to social organization, and where fathers hold authority over women, children, and property". So, if you wouldn't mind, please let me know what you mean by "patriarchy"...and please don't link to a 3,000 word essay; if you can't sum it up in a few sentences, then it's not a useful definition.

From there we should be able to discern: A) whether "patriarchy" is even the right term for that (both practically and etymologically), and/or B) if we do actually live in a patriarchy. All I ask is that you try to remain reasonable, non-hostile, and make your argument as dispassionately as you can...and I will try my best to do the same.

So what do you say -- do you actually want to discuss this issue, or do you just want us to condescendingly lob insults back and forth? It's your call.

As an aside, I won't be responding to anyone but barbadosslim. If you respond to me in this thread and "barbadosslim" is not your username, do not expect a reply. I'm not about to deal with 30 different SRS posters pulling the conversation in 30 different directions.

[–]barbadosslim 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Kill_The_Rich 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

that works I guess

Okay, great.

So by this definition, the criteria of patriarchy are as follows:

Males must be viewed as the primary authority figure.
The aforementioned view must be central to the organization of the social system.
Within that social system, fathers must hold authority over:
- women
- children
- property

Before we go much further, I'd like us to reach an agreement on what, exactly, would falsify a claim that a particular society is a patriarchy. In my view, each of the aforementioned criteria must be met in order for a social system to be a patriarchy -- that is to say that, if even one point is not met, it would not be a patriarchy. Do you agree with this view?

seems pretty dece to me

Agreed. I have neither practical, nor etymological issues with this definition.

yeah because women are less likely to have positions of authority and men who are unemployed are considered useless, both of which one would expect in a patriarchy

Certainly, but both of those could also exist in something other than a patriarchy and could be the result of other factors. Do you agree?

[–]barbadosslim 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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Have you ever see a man cat call a woman or make crude gestures at her?

That isn't rape culture, that just some men objectifing women. Is it wrong, yes. Is it rape.....ummm, no. And you can't say women don't objectify men too.

Have you ever heard someone say "if only she hadn't worn that skirt he wouldn't have raped her."?

Yes, mostly from other women or social conservatives. That's victim blaming and that's obviously not right.

Have you ever heard someone dismiss a woman's irritation at a rape joke as "come on its just a joke. Get over it already."?

Sexist jokes, yes. Rape jokes, no. But I have heard plenty of jokes made about men being raped in prison. "Don't drop the soap!!!!1111!!" There is no rape counciling, by in large, for men who get raped in prison. In fact, it's used as a punishment tool by many prisons, put some guy in a cell with 6'8" Bubba who likes to make men his bitch because the guy was caught selling weed. How is that for the disposibility of men culture?

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it is every time someone [...] victim blames or slut shames or makes a rape joke and people allow it to happen.

So, no women should ever be criticized (even in a joke!) for their reckless behavior, or lack of common sense, or we are condoning rape!

There isn't a "rape culture". Words have meaning, and that little gem means that society (dominated by men, supposedly) uses rape as a tool of social conformity. It. Just. Isn't. True.

The reality is that society - in the last 50 years - has slowly abandoned all pretenses of reining in female behavior (but not male behavior, oh no), no matter how distasteful. Accordingly, we have seen a rise in female promiscuity, drunkenness, drug use and violence, all to the laugh track of a society that finds chopping off the dick of your husband "quite delightful", to paraphrase Mrs. Osbourne.

"Rape culture" is the last rhetoric trick of a feminist subculture that finds any restriction or critique of female behavior intolerable, even when it would be to women's overall benefit. It's the shrill voice of a spoiled generation yelling "I can do anything I want, and *you** can't judge me!*"

Well, your generation is about to find that your actions have consequences, and that men are just unwilling to protect you from them anymore. When your feminist culture finishes destroying the white knight culture you've all been spitting on, we'll see how you like the "fuck you bitch, you're on your own" culture. And it is coming fast.

[–]aloneinlove 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]barbadosslim 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It's not a denial, it's your constant inaccurate attribution of problems to the "patriarchy" that is the problem. Blaming patriarchy for everything that goes wrong.

No, it's pretty much just for stuff that is oppressive on gender lines afaik.

The problem I have with the feminist's definition of rape culture is the idea that making sexist jokes and objectifying women leads to rape. It simply isn't true. Rapists rape not because people are making sexist jokes or objectifying women. Rapists rape because they are rapists and they want to exert control over women sexually.

I guess that's an argument you could make. I don't think it's correct though, especially given people like mellowgreen who simply do not think that certain situations where no meaningful consent is given are rape. That seems indicative of rape culture to me.

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Title	The Patriarchy - Image
Author	OThomson
Upvotes	93
Comments	152
Date	October 10, 2011 6:06 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/l7aty/the_patriarchy_image/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-patriarchy-image.1033369 https://theredarchive.com/post/1033369

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