This sub shouldn’t be ‘Us vs Them’

thruwuway69 · 2020-08-07T07:32:25+00:00

The issue is the multiple failed attempts at trying to work together with feminists. MRA are constantly seen as misogynistic, regardless of whatever they do. When they've asked questions on feminist subreddits, they get banned or downvoted or shouted at by everyone there who is triggered. When reply with facts or even post facts, the same happens.

It's not only on Reddit, it's practically everywhere. When feminists are asked a question regarding views that's against theirs or when they're provided facts to debunk their beliefs or even when they're asked to provide evidence for why they believe what they believe, it happens. Whether it's on radio, whether it's a formal interview, whether it's at a protest, whatever. It happens. Every single time there was a potential discussion or an opportunity to work together, they've never taken it because the moment you try to tell them the male side of the story, you're all of a sudden a misogynistic pos and you're everything wrong with the world and you don't listen to women or have any compassion for women etc.

Pink_Hanna · 2020-08-07T10:34:49+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/i5baxz/this_sub_shouldnt_be_us_vs_them/

Your Honor, I have no further comments

kandradeece · 2020-08-07T09:48:04+00:00

I am pretty sure the only men who really follow mens rights issues are those who have been burned by it. Meaning the sub is just full of Men who have been damaged by the femanist agenda in trying to be more than equal. So it would only make sense that people in this sub feel they have been treated as a 2nd class citizen. when that happens it is only natural to develop a us vs them mentality. Especially when the them is still pushing for laws that will make your life worse. Like I get super happy anytime I see the rare occasion where a man is treated equally in the eyes of the law. Like when the man gets 50% or 100% custody(for a valid reason). Or when a man gets alimony due to being with a women who makes a lot more. Or when a man calls the cops on his gf/wife for abuse and the cops dont immediately assume the man is the baddie.

LegendaryEmu1 · 2020-08-07T09:53:16+00:00

Men and women aren't that divided, its why feminists are a minority, feminism and men are divided. As is feminism and the MRM.

Women are much more common as victims of rape

Not much, just more.

Justifying being against women or against men because they’re against you isn’t okay.

...Nobody would argue with you here. Mens Rights isn't anti women, it inherently must be anti-feminism to some degree.

I think we should be trying to uplift everyone around us not bring certain people down or only bring ourselves up

You basically quoted my Prime Minister, Scott Morrison(Australian) who posted almost that exact line on mothers day last year.

Feminists attacked him.

Lethn · 2020-08-07T10:07:51+00:00

How are we supposed to work with feminism when feminists actively work to undermine us? How are we supposed to work with feminists when they have spent years associating us with incels, PUAs, the alt-right, and Nazis?

No fucking thank you.

EsraYmssik · 2020-08-07T10:15:19+00:00

I think the main reason that men and women are so divided is because it’s become a competition about who’s most oppressed

Then you think wrong.

Not only do we not think women are oppressed, we don't think men are oppressed. We reject the entire premise that society is split between oppressors/oppressed.

There are plenty of twitter screenshots and other examples on this sub of women saying horrible stuff about men but on feminism subs there is just as much evidence of men saying things just as bad about women.

Very true. OTOH:

you don't see #KillAllWomen trending on twitter,
you don't see MRAs giving awards to people for false accusations (look up mattress girl and her award for bravery from NoW for making a maliciously false rape accusation).
you don't see intacivists defending FGM while attacking MGM
you don't see MRAs dismissing fermale victims of violence because it doesn't fit our narrative

OTGH:

you DO NOT see mainstream feminists talking abouyt the boys that Boko Haram murdered when everyone was crying "bring back our girls"
you DO NOT see feminists showing sympathy for male victims of violence, heck you don't see feminists admitting male victims even exist, let alone deserve sympathy
you DO NOT see feminists accept the suicide gap, or at least not without victim blaming

I think we should be trying to uplift everyone around us not bring certain people down or only bring ourselves up

Then post this on a feminist sub, then come back here after you've been banned and we'll talk.

bufedad · 2020-08-07T04:42:28+00:00

The reason we're divided is feminists actively work to remove/deny mens rights

Ody_ssey · 2020-08-07T07:51:03+00:00

Men's Rights never downplays anyone's issues by percentage. Feminism always downplays men's issues by their percentage and also blame mem themselves for those issue which can't be ignored by per percentage.

"False accusation is rare so it's not an issue". "High suicide rate is because of men working in top 1% positions".

EmirikolWoker · 2020-08-07T04:45:43+00:00

You're conflating feminism and women, and possibly feminism with women's rights advocacy. They are not synonymous. Hatred of men is the foundational principle of feminism, which contributes and justifies perpetuating mens' issues and the desparity in legal rights. Being in favour of men's rights necessarily means antifeminism. I'm sure nobody here would be too fussed about feminism if feminists weren't anti-male and actively inhibiting reform that would help.

Regarding rape, since rape is defined in such a way as to exclude half of the potential perpetrator population, and most sex is heterosexual, of course it's going to look like women are overrepresented among the victims. MRAs want the bias taken out of the law, so the stats can be closer to reality.

Hannubal · 2020-08-07T10:30:24+00:00

I see your point, but I don't fully agree that MRA's turn it into a competition (with exception for a few). The idea behind showing that men suffer as well, isn't to say that we are the bigger victim, but to battle the theory that society is tilted in favor of us. It is to counter the ideological idea that women suffer more rather than as much - because this thought is used by many to justify neglecting men's issues. Utopic Feminist ideology has been a destructive force for men, which makes it important to battle its theories. My goal is genuine equality, where we give each issue the attention it deserves. This is clearly not the case with men's issues in modern society, with topics ranging from circumcision to male suicide being woefully neglected.

Also, I don't see nearly as much toxic, misogynistic material here as I've seen misandry on basically any Feminist platform. We have to be honest about the fact that misandry is just as prevalent as its opposite. Otherwise, it becomes difficult to bring light to genuine issues that face modern men.

zeerust2000 · 2020-08-07T10:50:13+00:00

My 2 cents. Feminists tend to be more hateful of men than men, generally, are of women. And they certainly don't want to discuss it.

Pizzariotin · 2020-08-07T10:05:03+00:00

I agree with everything you said, but working with feminists is almost impossible. for instance, try posting this same post on r/feminism and wait until it gets removed or downvoted to oblivion. They DON'T want to work together, so no matter how much we try we can't come up to a conclusion until they realize how ignorant some of them are being right now.

2020-08-07T13:10:04+00:00

I think the main reason that men and women are so divided is because it’s become a competition about who’s most oppressed

Your heart is in the right place, but your opinions are misguided.

Yes men’s suicide rates are higher than women’s but that doesn’t discredit women’s.

It's not about discrediting women's suicide! It's about bringing to light how suicide is predominantly a male problem, and needs methods that address male suicide, and not the 20% of cases that are woman suicide.

Feminists instead focus on woman suicide, for the same mentality that Hillary Clinton has.

Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-victims-of-war/

Women are much more common as victims of rape but that doesn’t mean men don’t suffer rape as well.

This is a lie woven by feminists to garner that exact sentiment. When you track the statistics, rape affects men and women in near equal numbers.

See for example here

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/

in 2011 the CDC reported results from the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS), one of the most comprehensive surveys of sexual victimization conducted in the United States to date. The survey found that men and women had a similar prevalence of nonconsensual sex in the previous 12 months (1.270 million women and 1.267 million men).5 This remarkable finding challenges stereotypical assumptions about the gender of victims of sexual violence. However unintentionally, the CDC’s publications and the media coverage that followed instead highlighted female sexual victimization, reinforcing public perceptions that sexual victimization is primarily a women’s issue.

...

"Rape,” the category of nonconsensual sex that disproportionately affects women, is given its own table, whereas “made to penetrate,” the category that disproportionately affects men, is treated as a subcategory, placed under and tabulated as “other sexual violence” alongside lesser-harm categories, such as “noncontact unwanted sexual experiences,” which are experiences involving no touching.

But hey, it's not a contest, right? Tell that to the feminists.

Vile_The_Savage · 2020-08-07T10:33:59+00:00

Hey, I have a question. I saw you posted this on the feminist subreddit and it got deleted for some reason. I was hoping to see responses from both sides... is there a reason it got deleted on there?

ArthurDent4ever · 2020-08-07T12:08:36+00:00

Feminism is the direct cause of many of the issues discussed on this sub including child custody, domestic violence laws, and the education gap. Other issues feminism actively makes worse or shuts down discussion on such as the gender empathy gap and male disposability. Your assertion is based in a fallacy: that feminism was ever interested in equality.

NewsStandard · 2020-08-07T13:01:14+00:00

Feminism has had a hundred and fifty years to do anything besides advocate for women while attacking and suppressing any attempt to improve the lot of men.

Feminists are not allies of equality. Feminists and MRAs do not work towards the same goals, or believe the same things.

Your post is like suggesting that all religions are working towards the same things, so all world religions should merge and work together. History shows you the opposite of this has always happened, only stunning ignorance of feminist action both historically and today would leave someone to believe they will ever promote men’s rights.

It is us vs. them. That’s the way humans are wired, for tribalism. That is one of the main reasons feminism has failed so badly to live up to its potential. The only way forward is a men’s movement to counterbalance it.

If you are one of those idiots who thinks feminism is for equality, it’s on you to explain why this sub even exists.

Your position is what’s known as mindless centrism.

mikesteane · 2020-08-07T13:03:46+00:00

We need a flair for tone policing.

Zudiak · 2020-08-07T13:18:18+00:00

The problem is with the glaring hypocrisy that is apparent in all mainstream social media platforms. For example, I remember a feminist Australian writer ( don't remember her name) tweeted this:

Honestly, the coronavirus isn't killing men fast enough.

She has since posted 3-4 apologetic tweets and gotten a few warning by publishing agencies but that was literally it. Imagine a man posting something similar like "Honestly breast cancer isn't killing women fast enough". He would be banned from the internet and put to jail charged with a thousand felonies within days.

It is also ok for women to make repetitive jokes like "Men are trash". "Cannot wait to find out if it's a girl or an abortion" (yes this exists). But imagine a male posting something 1/10th as offensive as this.

Modern feminism is, without a shred of doubt built upon the hatred for the male gender. Their ultimate goal is to subsidize the social status of men and raise up theirs.

Blu3_w4ff1es · 2020-08-07T13:47:56+00:00

Edit: A lot of people are arguing it’s impossible to communicate with feminists as they won’t listen and I just wanted to say it seems a bit like some people on this sub aren’t listening to other people either.

Just want to point out 1 thing. It appears that you re-posted this to /r/feminism.

Here, the idea was accepted and welcomed. There, your post was removed. That says a lot.

dartymallet · 2020-08-07T10:54:40+00:00

I agree with OPs point - both sides are often guilty of competitive victimisation. I think the key difference is MRAs are much more likely to actually defend our views with stats and evidence, but a lot of feminists will scream 'misogyny!' if we even slightly question them. It's a poor defence, but unfortunately one that resonates well with most people.

I've never seen anyone here downplay womens issues e.g. rape, suffrage, rights to abortion - I think we can all agree that women deserve equality! I HAVE seen feminists blame mens mental health on us like it's our own fault. I have seen 'men are trash' trending - it's like they ain't even trying to hide their misandry!

In my view feminism in the past has accomplished good things, but the movement as a whole does not take criticism well. I dont think feminism is completely bad, but there are major issues in their movement that have gone unchecked for a long time, and it seems like they doing very little to address them. We ain't perfect, but christ, we're never said 'women are trash'!

Lethn · 2020-08-07T04:33:42+00:00

You're completely full of shit just like every other person that tries to attack this sub unfairly.

empatheticapathetic · 2020-08-07T11:40:25+00:00

They don’t play by the rules. They don’t care about equality. They don’t want a discussion. Your ‘truce’ is pure propaganda.

RoadG13 · 2020-08-07T12:18:22+00:00

Talking with feminists it's same like talking with wall. Feminism is cancer must be eliminated

matrixislife · 2020-08-07T12:35:53+00:00

No. We've tried the whole "talk to them and see what happens" and been burned a bunch of times. Trying again will not change anything except drive a few more of us off from the abuse. See "Big Red" and a whole bunch of other examples.

If feminists want to try to work with us then they can start to change their own power structure to accomodate that. Until that happens I see no reason to cmv.

Try posting your view that "we should all be working towards equality for all instead of equality for men or equality for women." on /r/feminism and see how long it stays up.

edit: hah, I've just seen the same post on feminism.. https://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/i5baxz/this_sub_shouldnt_be_us_vs_them/ go take a look :p [but remember, don't comment]

LinkandShiek · 2020-08-07T13:27:04+00:00

It's kinda hard not to be against a hate group like Femininsm.

2020-08-07T13:33:14+00:00

What you're arguing for is a middle ground fallacy. This is exactly the purpose of feminism. To convince you that both sides have legitimacy, even though feminism in its current form is not only extremist, but factually incorrect in a lot of its stances.

Men's rights is not extremist, therefore, trying to make a comparison of the two leads to this framing of the argument. Men making sexist statements about women is not equal to women organizing and being activists and influencing all of society to take a negative view of men. Men highlighting the hypocrisy of women is not the same as what feminism does. Its not the opposite either. So there is no middle ground.

Do both sides have legitimate grievances? Sure, but they're not opposites. Does men's rights hurt feminists feelings, or trigger them? Its irrelevant.

Lethn · 2020-08-07T10:30:39+00:00

I appreciate the responses people are trying to give in detail but I don't think the OP is sincere at all about any of this, we shouldn't waste proper responses on concern trolls.

joshua070 · 2020-08-07T14:22:23+00:00

Yes! It's normal peopke vs batshit crazy feminists. We're not against all women, just the ones that treat men like shit just because of our sex. I think normal men and normal women can all unite against this common enemy. Plus, there's a lot of douchebag men that are against men's rights as well, some people in this sub forget that.

Mens_rights_matter2 · 2020-08-07T14:59:49+00:00

I don’t think many men’s rights advocates are trying to compete for most oppressed. That is a pathetic way to describe us. Most of us understand that both genders have issues that should be addressed. We would just appreciate being able to voice our concerns about men’s rights because that is what directly affects us. Women can do the same. The only problem is that we are actively shamed and silenced for trying to have an equal voice. We are tired of being discarded and shamed as incels for trying to speak up for once. The majority of the hatred and competition for most oppressed comes from feminism. It’s almost as if they are fighting a war and do not want to back down to anything that takes away from their victimhood mentality. If I could make an analogy that’d be pretty cool. Feminists think they are on a battle field and for many decades they have had men on their knees. They like this position. They do not for one second want us to stand up, speak for ourselves and for them to take a knee even for a second. Feminism has never been about equal rights. For the record, there are many amazing women in this world who do not hate men. I am speaking purely about the evil of feminism.

BaconCatBug · 2020-08-07T15:05:11+00:00

WW2 shouldn't be "Us vs Them". We should talk to the Nazis, see things from their point of view. /s

DanteLivra · 2020-08-07T15:09:19+00:00

A lot of people both here and on feminists subs are way too stuck into tribalism to have any meaningful conversations.

Those very same people are often the loudest and the most passionate, if we let this disease grow freely like feminists did, the whole movement will become a big joke compared to what it was, just like feminism.

Doing a "humans gender rights" movement would solve the issue but people are not mature enough for that yet.

Mackdude15 · 2020-08-07T15:11:50+00:00

MRAs at worst discredit feminists by debunking their claims and countering their sources. And yes, saying bad things about them in some cases.

Feminists, on the other hand, go all out to disbar and protest against mens spaces, shut down any meetings governed by the MRM, go out of their way to lobby and slander all people involved in mens rights advocacy, mitigate ANY claim that proves men to face exclusive victim hood despite the data, and have every attempt to achieve progress for men as "hate group/hate speech/misogyny" all without ever acknowledging the facts.

Now you tell me, do these appear to be equal to you? Do you notice any disparity?

Mackdude15 · 2020-08-07T15:13:03+00:00

I have a proposition for you, bud. You make some fair points, but let's face it, that can only be effective if you send the message to both sides. So why dont you duplicate this post on r/feminism and let us know the feedback you gather. We'll be waiting...

NoGardE · 2020-08-07T15:14:29+00:00

Free markets allow coordination for mutual benefit. However, government programs of regulation and redistribution are zero-sum or worse. So, as long as people are trying to get government policies changed or preserved, different interest groups will be competing for resources.

Mackdude15 · 2020-08-07T15:17:04+00:00

You posted this exact post on r/feminism and got banned and youre complaining that both sides refuse to listen to each other...yet here we are talking.

What does that tell you?

HarryShachar · 2020-08-07T15:17:05+00:00

My point of view is that people are showing us a false dichotomy, they are saying it's either help men or women. But we can do both! it's not that difficult to understand

mikesteane · 2020-08-11T08:50:42+00:00

Perhaps you should look at this post as an example of banning policy.

xxxheroinfather · 2020-08-07T09:51:07+00:00

Nah fuck em all

NekoiNemo · 2020-08-07T11:59:21+00:00

It's hard to not compete in "victimisation" when female victims are always treated as big news and male victims are either straight up ignored or even better - swiped under the rug.

As for "us vs them"... You can't be in any other relation with feminists. Either you ignore any male problems, accept that all men are oppressors, including yourself, and worship and deify women, or you're an enemy. There's literally no in-between in their eyes. Just look at that other "men's" sub who isn't "us vs them" with feminists - they are literally just carbon copy of /r/Feminism, but populated by men.

Same with a lot of issues - look at a lot of news about laws and policies posted here: it is always "we're going to bend backwards to cater to women at the expense of men". What else do you call it but "us vs them"?

Lethn · 2020-08-07T13:21:17+00:00

Sure there are bad people in the feminism and mens rights communities, but isn't it the best example that the feminists are the bigger problem after getting banned or deleted in their subreddit but not in this one?Your post is here for 8 hours. It might not look like a long time but the same post on the r/feminism didn't even survive 2 hours.I'm now following this subreddit for around 3 weeks and didn't see a single post where a women asked something and got deleted for that. Maybe bad timing but I don't think so if I saw the same happen multiple times on the feminist subreddit.
And I agree. Nothing will happen as long as it's "us vs them". Both groups need to work together to create equality.

The_Whorror_Show · 2020-08-07T10:58:36+00:00

Bruh it's an us versus them thing because we've watched you losers at mens rights become vilified, we've watched you retards simp for women and infight and stab each other on the back to bend over backwards for women's criticisms and demands. Everyone thinks you're a joke.

That's why men come to this place, but they also go to mgtow and redpill. Men ain't competing for the victim card, that's the most disgusting sentiment from your post. Men are just trying to be heard and trying to have their issues heard, so the fact that you reframe the narrative like you do, is disingenuous and why it will create more friction in the future. People like you would rather help women at the expense of men, if one of them offered you sex, you'd kill all the rest of men to get it I bet.

shoutlife · 2020-08-07T10:35:25+00:00

I agree

TDG0922 · 2020-08-07T13:55:07+00:00

MRAs insist on negotiating with terrorists.

Take the red pill and embrace MGTOW

breakneckridge · 2020-08-07T05:44:10+00:00

Fucking thank you! Yes! I gave up on this subreddit long ago, but I'm glad to see there's at least one other rational person still here.

princelydeeds · 2020-08-07T12:13:25+00:00

This...

KF_Ketchup · 2020-08-07T06:07:05+00:00

I don’t feel personally at this point that it’s directly a competition over oppression men have faced the idea that oppressors can’t be oppressed for decades now and it has brought to light issues that men have. Women are allowed to have platforms and groups for support . I do truly feel that this sub is just about ranting however its not actually trying to help victims. But that’s just my two sense

romibo · 2020-08-07T06:02:23+00:00

This sub is a front for incels.

Title	This sub shouldn’t be ‘Us vs Them’
Author	Save_room_for_Jesus
Upvotes	429
Comments	175
Date	August 7, 2020 4:29 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/i57c3k/this_sub_shouldnt_be_us_vs_them/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/this-sub-shouldnt-be-us-vs-them.846232 https://theredarchive.com/post/846232

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