When did this become a left vs right issue?

2012-04-18T15:48:27+00:00

Mras need to be identified as apolitical.

A potential swing vote because its the most powerful stance.

There are only a few mras on the right here trying to make it left v right, and so trying to create a circular firing squad.

Drainedsoul · 2012-04-18T15:45:01+00:00

Well, it doesn't make sense for men's rights activists to be either liberal or conservative.

Whereas liberals tend to support feminism -- still seeing females as disadvantaged -- conservatives tend to support traditional gender roles, neither of which men's rights activists support.

You'd think that MRAs would fall more into this category, but people who've been wronged by the state seem to come down with a case of Stockholm Syndrome...

2012-04-18T19:22:39+00:00

i feel a lot of issues(almost all issues) that MRAs talk about come from bad laws and weird welfare redistribution from men to women by the state. The fact that this is state-related automatically makes this a political issue (unfortunatelly).

This is exactly what i don't like in general as a libertarian and I presume that's why many libertarians (not conservatives) are drawn to men's rights issues.

I am also willing, in many cases, to put aside differences with more traditional democratic/left MR folks in pursuit of MR.

celibacy4life · 2012-04-18T17:30:36+00:00

As an FYI, feminism is still a sub-section of the Communist movement. The reason is that women are considered a protected class that will never achieve equality with men. Institutionalized sexism is how feminist advocates are able to maintain gender discrimination exists without chauvinists.

SpeakToTheSky · 2012-04-18T15:47:09+00:00

I am a Right-leaning libertarian. I support the individual rights and equal opportunities of all men and women. (Which, by the way, makes me FAR more liberal than most self-described liberals.) On occasion, I also speak out against the Left's financial and legislative privileging of women over men. I do not pretend the Right is way better on men's rights. It comes down to a difference between dumb and dumber. I also often call out traditionalists as being some of the worst female supremacists around.

I'm willing to criticize my own side on these issues. On the other hand, I feel there is a great deal of denial on the part of some Men's Rights supporters who come from the Left, as to the depths of female supremacy in their party.

Alanna · 2012-04-18T16:51:13+00:00

So why is it that conservatives are flocking here to bash liberals?

For the same reason we bash feminists: their real-world political actions often don't match their alleged ideals. Feminists claim to fight for equality, and liberals claim to fight oppression. In reality, both often act to favor the interests of women at the expense of men.

In the U.S., one just has to look at the Obama administration for examples of favoring women over men in feminist and liberal politics: a White House Council of Women and Girls, but none for men and boys; expansion of VAWA one-sided protection for women, but not men; increase in Offices of Women's Health to 7 separate offices in various government agencies, but none for men; using Obamacare to mandate preventative coverage and many special services for women, but not for men; using Title IX to force colleges to lower standards of evidence for sexual assault against women, to the detriment of the accused men; using the bully pulpit of the presidency to scold men for their failures as fathers, while doing nothing to alleviate the real discrimination men face as parents. And while this special treatment is given to women in so many ways, the status of men in education, employment, health, longevity, and incarceration continues to deteriorate.

The very few voices I see in the U.S. political arena speaking out for men today are all on the right. I have voted left of center most of my life, but now I vote for those politicians who support men and oppose special treatment and privileges for women. If politicians on the left speak up for men, great - they will have my vote. But I don't expect this to happen anytime soon.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-04-18T15:40:34+00:00

Politics is always stupid.

By sheer coincidence the left is more wrong than the right at the moment.

Political affiliation is a neurosis that a person should not tolerate in themself.

carbonnanotube · 2012-04-18T16:12:49+00:00

I just wanted to point out that your Left-Right binary classification is very, well, american. Not all posters here are American.

This also means that politicizing it in that way is counter-productive as posters from other countries will be less inclined to join in. (The only way I can stand reddit is by filtering US politics).

Alanna · 2012-04-18T15:55:16+00:00

look at the pandering the "right" has done to feminists, and look at the pandering the "left" has done to feminists.

Police_Murdering_Us · 2012-04-18T16:22:54+00:00

I don't even know what left and right really mean. I'm just here because I feel that the table of society is tilted, and slavery is waiting for those it can slide off the edge - servitude in jail, servitude by alimony or child support, servitude in high risk low pay jobs.

Growing up, this is not how I thought the world's 'most free society' would be.

Samurai007_ · 2012-04-18T16:46:10+00:00

I think the hand-in-hand partnership of so many Feminist groups with Democrats and the political left in America creates a natural tendency to then look to the right for answers. I'm a lifelong conservative and registered Republican, but for a host of other issues such as wanting lower taxes and less govt intrusion/more personal freedom, not for men's rights issues specifically. But unless the Left believed Men were a more important, more loyal, more valuable dependent group than the Women's groups currently are, there's no way in hell they'll do anything to help men at the expense of possibly angering their constituency.

melb22 · 2012-04-18T21:29:30+00:00

I'm a conservative but I welcome the fact that liberal men are turning against the idea that men are a privileged oppressor class which then justifies anti-male discrimination. The rejection of "men as a privileged oppressor class" is something that both conservatives and liberals can agree on - it could lead in the future to MRAs enjoying bipartisan support amongst younger male politicians.

However, there is inevitably going to be differences in other areas. I don't read every post here, so I'm not sure why it's being said that conservatives are derailing conversations - I haven't noticed that.

Liberals here often put their point of view (e.g. that the aim is to make gender not matter) so I don't see why conservatives shouldn't (e.g. that the aim is to have distinct but complementary gender roles). But we should put our point of view whilst keeping in mind that there is an important common agreement that it is wrong to paint men as the privileged oppressor class who ought to be discriminated against.

2012-04-19T02:37:24+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Demonspawn · 2012-04-18T16:13:07+00:00

My question is, are men on the left and right that entrenched in an ideological civil war that they can't come together on this issue?

Because they don't even have the same goals... the only thing that makes them similar is that they see the same problem. MRA is a movement based on a problem rather than a desired outcome.

Now, the problem is that those on the left think that government is going to resolve this problem of men lacking rights... by taking more from the mostly male tax base and paying out even more in programs which mostly benefit women. Those of us on the right (the real right, not the Republican party) see that said large government is what has caused quite a few of the MRA problems. Feminism has used women's suffrage to turn government into a surrogate father/husband. So those of us on the right see what the left wants to do, recognize that they'll just make the problem worse, and fight against it.

It has been taken over by sexist bigots and female supremacists

Feminism was sexist bigots and female supremacists from the beginning. The only difference between then and now is that their bigotry is harder to disguise.

blazedaces · 2012-04-19T01:46:54+00:00

I've been lurking on this subreddit for what is over a month now and until this thread I hadn't noticed any serious left vs right above-normal attitudes being portrayed... until this thread... wow.

Ironically, as the OP pointed out, the reason why you don't want to bring politics into this movement is displayed right here. Anyone who doesn't agree 100% with this worldview is vilified, called evil and lumped in as "the enemy". This causes fewer people to feel welcome and more people to feel shunned away.

rightsbot · 2012-04-18T15:38:17+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

2012-04-18T15:55:47+00:00

look at the pandering the "left" has done to feminists, and look at the pandering the "right" has done to feminists.

FascistOrigami · 2012-04-18T16:02:15+00:00

I think what you're seeing is a gradual realignment that will ultimately change the political polarities to which we became accustomed in the 20th Century. Broadly speaking, people will fall along a spectrum characterized by how much central control they believe the state (manifest in both government and large corporations) should possess.

In my own case, I used to self-identify as a liberal, but I think libertarian would more accurately characterize my political beliefs. While I believe that it is important to fight against institutional injustices, I don't believe that more institutional control can fix these problems.

TerriChris · 2012-04-19T03:03:53+00:00

One of the best posts. Should be expanded, made a textbook, and taught in uni gender studies. Golf clap.

picopallasi · 2012-04-19T04:04:11+00:00

As a Libertarian, equality under the law is something the left-liberal Men's rights advocates and I have in common. This is something I think conservatives and liberals should also be able to agree to. The common locus between all people should be this, hence it transcends any additional political baggage.

Gareth321 · 2012-04-19T08:16:31+00:00

From my observations in my brief time being a mod, it appears that we have a very diverse range of users from every political ideology. That's a good thing. But there is a very small but vocal group of people who self identify as to the right on the US political spectrum who insist on framing all issues in a political light. They're giving everyone a bad rep; people on the right, and indeed all MRAs. I don't see this same insistence, or vitriol, from people who identify as on the left.

All I can ask is for users to focus on the issues. For example, if boys are failing in school, ask why that might be. Perhaps a particular policy recently voted in by whichever government you have created a hostile environment for teachers by cutting their pay. Identify the politicians who voted for the change, and castigate them. It shouldn't matter which party they belong to. If we keep our focus on just men's rights, I really believe we can all cooperate well.

xyisok: be aware that it is a very, very small group of users doing the heckling. 99.99999% of users will welcome you and will have no problem discussing the issues as they are and as they arise. As is often the case, it's the minority yelling the loudest.

DionysusIsRisen · 2012-04-18T16:40:06+00:00

Obviously liberalism and conservatism mean different things to different people. Especially to us non-Americans, this entire liberalism = feminism deal can sound ridiculous.

That being said, liberalism by definition is the belief in liberty and equality. The way I look at things, then, is that obviously Men's rights should be a part of liberal agenda, as should Women's rights. They're not mutually exclusive and I think that most of us have no problem with female rights, rather with female privilege. Which, since it's not about equality, shouldn't be considered liberal, again, IMHO.

BarryOgg · 2012-04-19T00:46:49+00:00

FYI, THIS IS ANOTHER POST FROM THE "INEEDHELP1234" TROLL. OR AT LEAST HE CLAIMS SO.

Unconfidence · 2012-04-19T01:23:11+00:00

I'm generally leftist, and I'm an MRA. I just promote civil rights. I feel that drugs should be legal, all marriage should be legal, all sex should be legal, and that people shouldn't even be punished for such things as driving while intoxicated, as the judicial system should solely be a system for punishing those who do commit crimes, not preventing crimes from happening. In most of the MRA issues, I support Men's Rights, but my political views render the argument null anyway.

I do wish I wouldn't be boxed as a libertarian just because I'm an MRA. I like social libertarianism, but economic libertarianism is just nuts, if you ask me.

memymineown · 2012-04-18T16:06:00+00:00

I have been pushing the idea that Men's Rights is a cause that transcends traditional political boundaries but recently we have seen more and more right wing MRAs disrupting reasonable discussion.

I think this is not only wrong but it is a bad move tactically. Left leaning Men's Rights Activists are almost certainly a majority. It would be equally wrong to exclude the right leaning Men's Rights Activists.

The right wing MRAs will probably do more damage to our movement than feminists if they continue their petty squabbling with people who disagree with them on irrelevant issues if our movement gets to the (inter)national stage.

We need to be coming together on the things that we agree on, not pulling apart over the things we disagree about.

Alanna · 2012-04-18T18:32:27+00:00

There's a number of liberals around here. Don't be fooled by the loudmouthed, frequently downvoted right wing nuts that try to subvert the MRM into some kind of conservative platform.

ThePigman · 2012-04-19T02:49:38+00:00

Right wingers using this place to attack the left are yet another group of trolls that the mods should get tough on, but they don't do tough well - frankly, they don't do it at all. I really don't care why the tories are spouting their crap, just that they distract us from the issues at hand.

2012-04-18T23:17:45+00:00

Fucking Americans, this thread, just fucking Americans, displaying an understanding of politics which is comparative to that of a fucking five year old, seriously I'm happy you guys declared independence, Britain would have been dragged through the dirt of mediocrity carrying fools such as you, enjoy your cancerous left-right partisan fuckfest, the rest of the world has real politics to do

loganizer · 2012-04-21T16:45:13+00:00

Well look who it is.

Title	When did this become a left vs right issue?
Author	xyisok
Upvotes	21
Comments	154
Date	April 18, 2012 3:38 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/sg4su/when_did_this_become_a_left_vs_right_issue/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/when-did-this-become-a-left-vs-right-issue.1023707 https://theredarchive.com/post/1023707

Comments