Can you empathize with the other pill's position?

roe_ · 2014-02-04T19:54:24+00:00

Basically, I think the TRP model of human attraction is mostly true, but I think it sucks - that is, it leaves a lot of worthwhile people lonely because they don't fulfill evolutionary constraints that are no longer even useful. Seeking socially dominant males no longer makes sense in a world with a gov't monopoly on use of force and seeking a specific waist-to-hip ratio in women no longer makes sense in a world with medical interventions during childbirth - but both sexes seem stuck with them.

If you could rebuild human attraction from the ground up, you'd probably build it to TBP specs and not TRP specs.

goatismycopilot · 2014-02-04T20:01:12+00:00

I actually think some of the advice TRP dudes give out in regard to self improvement is useful: develop yourself, adopt a healthy lifestyle, work hard in career, essentially it sounds like they are saying before you start investing energy into romantic relationships, invest in yourself. I think women should really be given the same advice. I am not excited by the "women as sub human" commentary that often pops up.

I won't be so arrogant to presume I can understand where TRP dudes are coming from. I also think men get mixed messages, and like women subjected to extreme stereotypes.

IIHotelYorba · 2014-02-05T03:11:03+00:00

Of course. I used to be blue pill, just like everyone on TRP.

I get all the reasons why you'd disagree with TRP. It feels unfair, unscientific. A throwback. It looks like people venting, or like crazy people with conspiracy theories.

It would seem super weird to younger me. I probably would write it off as a bunch of dudes wearing "no ma'am" t-shirts.

autoNFA · 2014-02-05T01:41:23+00:00

Your heart is in the right place, but you don't entirely understand where we're coming from, and in fact I haven't seen any BPs mention this at all in these comments so far:

We're angry because we've been told by both women and men that the way to a woman's heart is by getting to know her as friends first, taking things slowly and not being presumptuous or sexually forward because that's insulting, being there for her whenever she's down and offering emotional support, etc., and when she trusts you enough she will open up romantically to you when she's ready, or otherwise if she's not interested she will politely express her disinterest well in advance. Other, more sexually open approaches are shallow and disrespectful to women, and you're not disrespectful to women, are you? Again, we have been told over and over that these are the social rules by older adults, peers, and popular media. And when we find out (if we find out, really) and express bewilderment that the social contract is not what we have been led to believe it is, we get called scum, creeps, manipulators, abusers, etc despite genuinely trying to do the right thing for everyone. We're somehow evil, and get branded as such.

I have never (even online!) seen or heard a woman empathize with men in these situations, even if they disagree with how they react to the revelation. This is a big part of why TRP exists.

yasee · 2014-02-04T22:48:05+00:00

I like to think I can.

My takeaway from reading TRP is that a majority are (or once were) under-confident guys who want to succeed with women. As you say, they're subject to a unique societal pressure to approach women and have sex, and negative experiences have made them insecure (or maybe they were naturally insecure to begin with). They address this problem by deconstructing their prior notions about women in a way that makes them seem less scary, thereby building confidence (and often leading to greater dating/seduction success).

It's a kind of short-cut to self-confidence, I guess. Rather than building yourself up (or in addition to it, ideally) you tear your "opponents" down. It's a lot easier to be confident and suave around someone you've decided is innately less logical, empathic and mature than yourself.

I realize this has a high chance of offending someone and I'm open to being corrected if any of my perceptions about the community are off.

KittyHamilton · 2014-02-04T23:47:15+00:00

[deleted]

berryokt · 2014-02-05T02:42:05+00:00

I cannot understand or emphasize with any blue pill, man or woman. I believe only my views are correct and I would prefer to be alone than to associate in real life with those kind of people. I think they are wrong and I used to feel bad for them. They do not respect me and that feeling is mutual for all the hate I have received.

fiat_lux_ · 2014-02-04T20:43:01+00:00

This is a tough question for me to answer without sounding disingenuous... Because I've been swimming in liberal ideology throughout my life and my interest in and empathy with conservatives and the manosphere is recent. I suppose there's always the concern that I might be "going native"?

Before trying out some man-goggles, I've always had the stereotypical "they just need to man up" attitude to every other guy's concerns. I've always been more sympathetic to women's concerns even as I turned a blind eye to the fact that most of the people I see needing food banks/soup kitchens were men; and the kids I knew living in poorer areas dropping out or getting in trouble with the law were almost all boys. It took conscious effort to see and remember that.

Your question presupposes that it's actually difficult for a lot of guys like me to sympathize with girls/women. Furthest from the truth. It's so much easier to side with women. They are prettier, more agreeable, and (whether it's for biological or social reasons) they seem more vulnerable and valuable for me. Men are uglier and more threatening to me. They bring out instinctive competitiveness in me.

For a lot of us, white knighting is practically an instinct.

The new way I empathize now with bpers or SRS is that many it seems have severe personal problems on the level of many rpers. It would have been easier to empathize a lot sooner if I hadn't been inexplicably banned from SRS and I had continued to dive through instead of just ignoring them.

Other than that, not much of my position has changed... I still don't hate women. I still don't believe AWALT. I still feel no need to game them, as what I'm doing naturally is good enough for me. I still dislike the development of shame culture. And I can't go back to seeing the average man and his concerns as being beneath me.

KittyHamilton · 2014-02-04T20:32:53+00:00

I can't empathize at all because I think it's all just hatred. I wouldn't empathize with a woman who decided that all men are pigs just because she had a bad boyfriend either. It's ok to feel hatred against a person who has hurt you but it's not ok to generalize that to target a group in society with hate speech and act as if it's justified or to fool yourself that it's healthy or useful.

HalfysReddit · 2014-02-04T20:16:56+00:00

I think both extremes are approaching human interaction through a very narrow mindset.

Blue Pill denies that Red Pill has any truth because they can't cope with any of that reality, Red Pill believes their shit is gospel just because working out and being confident got them laid a few times (big surprise).

SigmaMu · 2014-02-04T21:42:11+00:00

Lots of pressure is put on men to lose their virginity as soon as possible, and not having lots of sex is portrayed as some kind of failure to be a man.

That's not why we do it. We like having sex. BP always shifts the blame onto 'society' or 'culture'. Not enough women in stem fields? It's society holding them back! Men like skinny women? Only because culture tells them to! Like nobody's a person with actual cognitive abilities, we're all just dinghies swept about on currents that are somehow no one's and everyone's fault.

TehGinjaNinja · 2014-02-05T02:16:21+00:00

That is, do you get where they're coming from? Can you put yourself in their shoes?

Of course. Most Red Pill guys start out as Blue Pill, so we understand exactly where they're coming from. That's also why we know they're completely full of crap.

We didn't arrive at our new beliefs and values spontaneously. For most of us, we learned the hard way that the ideals preached by Blue Pillers are incompatible with reality.

The reason I have a strong dislike for TRP is that there is a tendency to blame all of these problems on women and/or feminism.

Women, as a group, aren't the problem, but feminism as a movement is. It has sought to marginalize and emasculate men from it's inception, and we're tired of it. Fortunately, we're men, so we really don't have to put up with it.

There's the sexist, pseudoscience evo-psch stuff that makes generalizations about inherent female nature.

Get over it. That's the core of TRP. At least we aspire to scientific empiricism. That puts our belief system head and shoulders above the naked ideology and blatant bullshit which fuels feminism and the Blue Pill mentality.

There's the blatant misogyny.

If you don't like it, then stop picking fights with us. Stop trying to be our competition. Men are designed to hate our competition; to dehumanize our enemies. I know feminists didn't warn you about that when they picked a fight with all men on behalf of all women, but that's your problem not ours.

TL:DR Of course Red Pillers understand Blue Pillers, we were Blue Pill until reality caught up with us. We know exactly how deluded you are, and we would pity you... if we had any pity left.

648262 · 2014-02-04T19:36:46+00:00

do you get where they're coming from?

I was going to say we all came from the blue pill, but it's not really correct. The blue pill are those that have been exposed to the red pill mindset, but willfully decide that it's not for them.

I don't quite get that part.

I think many are like you, that they see the truths, but get put off due to the harsh words and the people that come of as misogynists. In a way you've now seen the truth and the next step would be acceptance and all that. So like I said, I don't understand why you don't go all in. At least if you were a man.

Archwinger · 2014-02-04T22:51:04+00:00

As a Red Pill advocate, it's extremely easy to identify with the non-Red-Pill position. First off, I want the world to be that way. I wish it was. It's stupid and sad that it isn't. Secondly, however, the non-Red-Pill way "works" (subjectively speaking) for most people.

Most men grow up, act "normal" in their own way (i.e., just being themselves), and eventually meet some girl willing to sleep with them and marry them. Eventually, anyway. Only the worst-case scenario guys never meet anybody and never pair off. Most men don't get cheated on and don't get divorced. Many do, but it's debatable whether "acting Red Pill" would have changed anything. So for them, the non-Red-Pill lifestyle works just fine. They think Red Pill is stupid, unnecessary, harmful, and can't possibly work anyway.

Life is so much better after incorporating Red Pill concepts into my world. I thought I was doing okay and was happy. I guess I was. But paying more attention to what people (especially women, but all people) say, do, and how they say and do it, and responding more appropriately has changed everything. My marriage is better - not perfect, but better. My job situation is better - again, not perfect, but better. My social life is better - yeah, still not perfect, but much improved. I am ten times happier, other people actually respect me, and if anything goes ape shit in my life and I lose anything I have going on - my job, my marriage, anything, I'm in a great position to just shrug it off and keep building my life even better.

It's one of those things where my life would have been fine without The Red Pill. I didn't know it could have been better or how to make it better. But with just a few small changes to my outlook and how I respond to certain things, women like me, men think I'm cool, and my wife only shits on me half as often.

mikado12 · 2014-02-04T19:43:45+00:00

I can atleast understand where blue pill women are coming from. I have difficulty dealing with blue pill men.

namae_nanka · 2014-02-04T20:18:01+00:00

Can you put yourself in their shoes?

Of course, most of RPers come from it.

I think we've reached a phase where the unfairness of how men are treated is more obvious.

It should always have been obvious and that's why feminism is to be blamed.

The "Woman's rights" agitator has succeeded by a system of sheer impudent, brazen, "bluff," alternately of the whimpering and the shrieking order, in inducing a credulous public to believe that in some mysterious way the female sex is groaning under the weight of the tyranny of him whom they are pleased to term "man the brute." The facts show these individuals to be right in one point and only one, namely, that sex-injustice and sex-inequality exist; for it so happens that the facts further show the said injustice and inequality to exist wholly and solely in favour of women as against men. • Preface to The Legal Subjection of Men 1908, Belfort Bax

This talk we hear ad nauseum, from the Feminist side, of the wife being an “unpaid servant,” is typical of the whole Feminist agitation. We find the same deliberate and unscrupulous dishonesty characterising it throughout. Facts are not merely perverted or exaggerated, they are simply turned upside down. -Fraud of Feminism 1913

Women's gender roles, by contrast, are becoming more flexible.

Nonsense, they are becoming Beauvoir rigid.

The reason I have a strong dislike for TRP is that there is a tendency to blame all of these problems on women and/or feminism.

It is not mere tendency.

Title	Can you empathize with the other pill's position?
Author	KittyHamilton
Upvotes	20
Comments	190
Date	February 4, 2014 7:30 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1x0d7j/can_you_empathize_with_the_other_pills_position/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/can-you-empathize-with-the-other-pills-position.286261 https://theredarchive.com/post/286261

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