Discussing Shallow!

Spartacus321 · 2014-04-02T01:37:35+00:00

Yes, that's shallow. We can sit here and discuss the morality of it and whether or not being shallow is "bad", but judging someone based on their looks is shallow.

Shallow: lacking intellectual or mental depth or subtlety; superficial (source)

Unfortunately, by definition having a preference that is based on looks is shallow. You're making a judgement or excluding the possibility of dating someone based on outward (or superficial) appearances.

MagicGainbow · 2014-04-02T01:39:48+00:00

He's free to date whom he chooses, I don't see many women lining up to date disfigured guys, but he was a tactless bitch.

shutayooface · 2014-04-02T02:57:54+00:00

Your friend was shallow, but it was in not thinking of the girl's feelings before speaking, not in his unwillingness to date her.

rulenumber303 · 2014-04-02T01:30:39+00:00

I'm guessing most deep thinkers would have some clue not to blurt out something like that even if it was true.

CrackheadHamster · 2014-04-02T01:11:45+00:00

It's shallow maybe not uncommonly so but it's still shallow by definition.

MissPearl · 2014-04-02T12:52:25+00:00

Shallow is part of the human experience- some of it is just the simplifications we do because clarifying and investigating every aspect of our daily life would be too time consuming. I am shallow enough that wearing a driver's uniform, being an adult and sitting in the front seat of a bus is enough for me to believe the person is qualified to handle the vehicle.

When the interactions are also going to be on an incredibly shallow level (eg bus operation based on obvious markers of competence), this is not going to cause a problem.

For some people a very limited criteria are enough to make decisions about someone- for example height, subculture affiliation or ethnicity, that are used to make positive or negative assumptions about people- for example, on a fairly benign level, wearing my glasses instead of contacts makes people assume I'm smarter but not as "fun". On the other hand it implies that your relationships don't need to have much depth beyond your limited sorting criteria- if all you need in a man is that he is tall and has all his hair, or that you rank choice in girlfriends by breast size- and this is where this sort of sorting criteria can harm you because it may cause you to limit yourself to a pool that is not actually going to give you what you want, since those characteristics are a broken heuristic for traits you find agreeable.

It can also be bad when you use your shallowness for sorting according to shit that really, really doesn't matter to the situation, in the case of the social imbecile- for him the fuck-ability of the hapless burn victim was more important than her ability to participate in the group un-harassed. He has the right to passively exert his preference by not dating her, but by vocalizing his preference he's also bringing up the subject of whether or not burn victims are to be considered less valuable as romantic partners- otherwise it's a non sequitur to the tune of "I like turtles!"

Now as far as relationships- chuckles there brought it up, and the opinion of two other people was that his selection bias is stupid. We generally assume being "shallow" is something that's easier to get over than being "horribly facially burned". That and while being socially inept might be incurable, his mouth is liable to do more damage to people than her face, ergo if he can't knock it off there's reasonable logic in why making him feel bad about stuff enough to stop is a good thing.

Now as far as giving dating advice- pretty much everyone has stuff they look for- it might be physical (big light coloured eyes), cultural (atheist), or emotionally abstract (makes me feel important and clever). I have a friend who is really shallow about height- she needs the guy to be as tall or taller than her, and she herself is very tall. If we discuss preferences I will say she is shallow (politely) as this is not an axis of value I've ever applied to the opposite sex, but since she is content to be single if no tall men are interested in her, as long as she's not being unkind to guys under 6", its her thing and none of my business.

IIHotelYorba · 2014-04-02T02:02:32+00:00

Shallow is mostly a nonspecific term people use to bash others and feel superior. It's especially used today to attack men and typically male interest in physical aesthetics.

Not liking anyone for any reason is sufficient reason to not date them. You're not doing charity. And I guarantee in nearly all cases both those girls wouldn't date someone if they felt like they weren't physically attracted to them.

spongegloss00 · 2014-04-02T03:27:08+00:00

Your friend was rude for saying that in front of her but all human beings have preferences. To me , being shallow is caring only about looks/money and only going for the hottest/richest person regardless of what other qualities they have.

cascadecombo · 2014-04-02T05:18:06+00:00

You need to water down the truth when you explain it to the opposite sex. But you'll notice when she blew off your question it basically means you won. And she knows that, since she can't reply to that.

PublicallyViewable · 2014-04-02T05:51:45+00:00

I mean, you can call pretty much anything shallow. If you are picky based on appearances, then you're shallow. If you choose not to date someone because they don't have a high paying job, you're shallow. If you want someone who can make you laugh, and exclude everyone who can't from your dating pool, you're shallow.

Basically it's the beta's way of getting back at the people who won't choose them.

fiat_lux_ · 2014-04-02T02:14:10+00:00

Shallow is a bit broad of a term. It can mean many things and it is used to describe too many people.

Your friend may very well be shallow, but so are too many other people and for different reasons. I would describe your friend as unnecessarily hurtful and tactless instead.

We_Are_Legion · 2014-04-02T04:37:13+00:00

This isn't directly related to your question OP. But send your friend a link to something called Katawa Shoujo. I think its very relevant to that whole incident and his opinion in general. Its a free western-produced visual novel(book with ameteur music and pictures to add to experience + choices) and it shouldn't last more than a few hours. Its also famous around the internet for making grown men cry and produced by anons collaborating off 4chan.

potopotp · 2014-04-02T11:04:28+00:00

Me: Of course not but that's their choice .... Doesn't appearance matter?

Instead of this, I feel you could have counted back with:

Would you sleep with a man you weren't attracted to?

now:

i.) what does shallow mean?

Shallow in this context means, "i am making a value judgement based on your action to show I disagree with you as a human being"

ii.) can you outline the difference between being shallow and stating your preferences.

Yeah.

Shallow is the subjective value judgement that someone gave to you stating your preferences.

Stating your preferences was the action taken.

R3p3rTh3l3n · 2014-04-04T00:36:56+00:00

In essence, it's because no one wants to hear that they are unattractive. Everyone knows that. It's just to the extent that you take that feeling is were the cultured term 'shallow' came from.

It's not only that, but the way someone states there preferences that causes one person to think another as shallow. IF I simply say "Yes, I do not want to date a chick with three arms. It's nothing against women with three arms, I simply do not find them physically appealing enough for me to take any sort of romantic interest it." you'll get a much better response then saying "Girls with three arms? Fucking gross. Those people are hideous."

To make clear, I am not trying to relate the above example to any part of the story you gave, but I am replying to your question on the difference between stating your preferences and being shallow.

Next, to address the story itself.

I think the issue on what happened with the 8 is very simple. It could be a couple of things. A, she could really have certain, (and I'll grant, probably hypocritical) views on the topic of 'being shallow' and at that point there's only so much you can try to debate before she rolls her eyes and walks away. B, Like you said, it was a pair of girls in their late teens. The solid 8 probably with with her friend, who like you said, was a bit bigger. The 8 could have come to the assumption that her friend has been judged on her looks before, and in therefore felt like she was defending her friend by saying that "Looks aren't everything."

As for the... larger girl, it was most likely a personal topic for her. I cannot blame her for getting a bit upset. Man, Woman, Girl, Guy, whatever. If shit stings you in the feels there's a chance that person won't be arguing from the most rational stand point.

jacks1000 · 2014-04-02T02:00:30+00:00

I'm not saying that some people aren't shallow, I'm just saying that a lot of people talking about how they can't stand shallow people just seem to be reassuring themselves how not-shallow they are.

Spartacus321 · 2014-04-02T01:44:47+00:00

There's two issues here.

The first is, whether or not it's shallow to not date burn-face girl. I personally agree with your friend. I think burns are gross. She'd have to give me a pretty compelling reason to want to date her (she's funny, interesting, no gag reflex, etc.) and even then, it's going to be a huge social hit for me to date her. Plus her lack of SMV would make her shit-tests all the more unbearable. It would be a paradox because on the one hand she would have to never be hypergamous and never shit-test you to make it tolerable to be around her, but then also you have to face the idea that you are dating significantly below your SMV (I can't find it but Patrice Oneal has a hilarious joke on how he doesn't want to date a woman he can send out at 2am and not worry about her getting raped).

The second issue is your friends total lack of social grace. There isn't much noble about your friend's choice of saying what he did in front of her. Unless he has Aspbergers, he had to know this would be hurtful, especially in public. I see no point in his honesty, other than just to be a dick. Maybe he thinks being edgy and breaking social norms somehow makes him appear interesting, cocky, etc., but there's not much benefit to stirring the pot up that much. There's 10 different ways he could have approached that and still been controversial. He could have made an awkward, funny joke:

"sorry I could never date you sweetie, I'm an asshole, you'd probably get burned out on me"

This is the subtlety to being alpha, not just rampantly being a dick or an asshole. You need to be poised, tactical, dominant, and while you aren't afraid to be a dick if you need to, you mostly secure your alpha status by using social intelligence to garner authority. True alphas protect their pack while maintaining their dominance in it. You can't always achieve this by being reckless. In fact, having that measure of social wit will more likely secure you as an alpha rather than what he did.

FortunateBum · 2014-04-04T03:01:15+00:00

Next time, just ask her, what is your favorite band? Whatever it is, later just say, I can't date someone who likes ...

For some reason, this makes sense to women.

Title	Discussing Shallow!
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	5
Comments	51
Date	April 2, 2014 12:21 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/21z08a/discussing_shallow/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/discussing-shallow.285985 https://theredarchive.com/post/285985

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